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IndustryArena Forum > Community Club House > Machinist Hangout > Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

View Poll Results: Is a machine operator a machinist

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  • Yes

    2 10.00%
  • No

    18 90.00%
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Results 21 to 40 of 62
  1. #21
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    What you say is very true Bob, the big defining difference is when you have no tangible competition you will ultimately fail mainly due to complacency and losing the need to diversify.

    It's a bit like pulling an apple out of a barrel full of apples that got there when the season was good.....eventually the barrel will be empty and now you have to look for other sources of nourishment and be more clever in your endeavours.

    In this day and age going into business is a very battle plan scenario...…..equipped with the wrong weapons and you can be beaten by a 10 year old child with a catapult and a walnut.....ask Goliath what he thinks of David now.

    Every time I see adverts for exotic tooling and machines that cost more than the 60's space program and you will understand that the other guy will be doing what you hesitate to do and win every time...…..it's a race to the end to be the most productive for the least cost...…..quality is a by word for reality waiting to happen...…..equip with the wrong tooling and they will sell off your assets at 10 cents in the dollar when you close the doors for the last time.

    It would be great to have a product that nobody thought of and cannot make because only you understand the concept and don't have an infrastructure that needs to continue to expand just to be competitive...…..the car industry is an example of this...…….how many times have I read of very successful car companies that were once totally ahead of the race and then drown in the field of competitive production...….that is because the fickle public like the shine of a coat of paint and choose to change their likes and dislikes at the drop of a hat.

    But.....when your game plan is set on a level playing field and you have to compete on an unlevel playing field you will fail every time, that is evolution at it's most supreme example.

    What I'm driving at is if you want to play hard ball with the other guy you will need to be better in the rules if they exist or make the rules to suit your needs...…...for example the system of unilaterally applying tariffs to exports is one way to level the playing field......sauce for the Goose is also sauce for the Gander.

    BTW….the goal of any company, be it a one man show or a large corporation is to make money.....that and nothing else...….anything else is a recipe for bankruptcy.
    Ian.

  2. #22
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Quote Originally Posted by Mecanix View Post
    Put in a modern context (cnc) the machine is the machinist, the operator operates (or control) the machinist.

    e.g I'm not a machinist, anymore, my automated machine-tools are. I am therefore an operator/programmer.
    Correction, if you set the tooling and operate a machine with you are a setter operator.....if someone else sets the tooling you are just an operator per se......if you program and operate a machine with preset tooling you could be a machinist or a programmer operator it just depends on how much you get paid to stand there and punch the green button all day long.

    As an operator you would want to be on a production bonus, but as a setter or programmer you would want to get a production override bonus for the number of machines you set or program.
    Ian.

  3. #23
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    I don't think anyone so far has mentioned another vital difference between a machinist (or tool maker) and a machine operator:
    The former can also design and make jigs which work.

    I spend a lot of time making jigs for my CNC rather than making parts, but it is the jigs which hold the tolerances.

    Cheers
    Roger
    Hi, correct me if I'm wrong, been a long time away from the coal face...…..a jig is a device with prepositioned hardened guide bushes to guide a tool whereas a fixture has entities to hold and position a workpiece that "could' be used on a CNC machine such as a mill......a jig would never be used on a CNC machine.

    You cannot use a jig on a mill due to the fact that the mill is inflexible with it's tool holding and therefore defeats the object of positioning the tool, but you can use a jig on a drilling machine as it is the prime reason to use one when the drilling machine has no ability to position the tool.
    Ian.

  4. #24
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Correction, if you set the tooling and operate a machine with you are a setter operator.....if someone else sets the tooling you are just an operator per se......if you program and operate a machine with preset tooling you could be a machinist or a programmer operator it just depends on how much you get paid to stand there and punch the green button all day long.

    As an operator you would want to be on a production bonus, but as a setter or programmer you would want to get a production override bonus for the number of machines you set or program.
    Ian.
    Can't say its like that everywhere but where I work we have a staff rotation system; the engineer occasionally becomes an operator and the operator shadowing the engineer. Same for the designers, programmers and the technicians, we swap-shadow each others routinely so to 1) learn what others are doing, 2) see how things works, 3) understand why decisions are made as such. Not a unique HR model to my company at all, in fact quite a few of the design/manufacturing companies I've visited had similar if not identical practices. All that to say I think its unfair for anyone to claim or believe that there is only one available position/avenue within a modern company.

    As for what my personal home shop goes, I am indeed a "operator". I'm not even half joking; I seriously can't recall when I had to manually take a finish cut to bring that part to its drawing dims/tols. Its all CNC, computerized this and networked that. All I have to do is send that *.NC file over the share drive, load it into the control, press green, and un-clamp the finish part - and repeat. Feels more or less like the "machinists" are the machine-tools as opposed to myself ;-)

  5. #25
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    I don't think anyone so far has mentioned another vital difference between a machinist (or tool maker) and a machine operator:
    The former can also design and make jigs which work.
    A Fixture Designer is indeed a required member of staff and often paid as much, if not more, than the designers. Knowledge in science of materials (CTE?!), linear and non-linear behaviors of joints and machine-tools required. To my knowledge the Fixture Designer is one if not the hardest resource to find on the open market.

  6. #26
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    ....as I slowly sink back into my PC chair it is apparent that things have definitely changed since I was a boy.....but I would hasten to add that it's for the better......now the machine does the thinking virtually.

    I'm all for the machine getting to zero by dead reckoning from program control because that's what it was designed to do even if it does mean less jobs available..…..if the ball screws and linear rails can't keep on track to manage the accuracy part we are indeed doomed to disaster as we are now totally reliant on their integrity.

    I think that if you have a part to make you won't make money, but when you have to make many parts then the new science is the only way to go......I won't be part of that race ...too ooooooold and cranky and not enough grey matter to cotton on to the new way apart from just scratching the surface with my home CNC wunderbot

    And now some are saying that additive machining is going to make CNC subtractive methods obsolete...…..LOL......I just bought a 3D printer so now I'll be in the new rat race.....well in a plasticly way for fun that is.
    Ian.

  7. #27
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    It seems that I should have written Fixture, not Jig.
    Pedantic. Oh well, fixture.

    additive machining is going to make CNC subtractive methods obsolete
    In their dreams. ('Their' meaning the sales reps for these machines.)

    To replace a full precision CNC mill you will need ... it hasn't been invented yet. Yes, you can even make high temperature metal parts with a 3D printer - but the printer will cost more than a good CNC mill, the surface will be rough, and you will probably still have to finish the manufacture with subtractive machining.

    Cheers
    Roger

  8. #28
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Well, as I understand it the more practical approach is to make pattern parts, not the actual metal whatever item, that can then be converted to metal.

    I think this is a bold move that has potential as it would cut out a lot of pattern making, same as lost wax etc.

    Making a pattern means you are into a finished product, IE the pattern, and any changes due to customer wants is a major remake whereas a printed pattern is just a flick of the wrist to make a program change.....more or less.

    Once the program has been established the parts can be replicated over and over again......the metal casting phase is just standard practice.

    I think lost wax castings are very cost effective for even very complex patterns and volume too..... you can make multiple patterns in wax or PLA plastic quite easily once the printer runs.....correct me if I'm wrong.
    Ian.

  9. #29
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    You can rest assured that additive manufacturing won't be replacing common processes anytime soon. Most if not all of the material coupons that were pre-processed with that tech came out of the Universal Test Machine with a strain-stress curve looking more or less as brittle as glass. The process screws up the entire material properties range and very few industries can make use of that (none, to my knowledge). By the time we have documented those materials' random/screwed-up mechanical & thermal properties, your children may have already passed away (i.e. year 2099).

    So my guess is we'll need Operators for quite a few more decades ;-)

  10. #30
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    I wouldn't go predicting anything regarding the future these days....as soon as something is state of the art and selling like crazy it gets superseded by a cheaper model and the whole shebang goes around again.....but I think you're quite right in the immediate as at the moment we are still heavily in the subtractive machining stage.

    Mainly, if it can be done in a different way and cost less it will be done.....nothing is cast in stone.

    The principle will always come first and the design will always follow based on the principle, so eventually the operator may be completely eliminated from the picture and the manufacturing facility will be AI and robots.

    Who would have thought a few years ago that robots are the only way to make a car that's cost effective and sells.....even then, many car manufacturers still can't make it to the winning post......and now we have the electric car turning the whole industry upside down.

    I would predict that the days of the metal bodied car are numbered and 3D printing will take over in that sphere……….if it doesn't meet with someone's likes they can always get a taxi...….swimming against the stream is not practical if you cannot adapt to a new way.

    Which opens up the can of worms as regards to the operator that is now going to be a redundant factor.

    I have to ask myself, what is the point of attacking a block of metal with exotic tooling because the need to make it cheaper rules when you can adopt an alternative technology and cast it in a variety of metals of your choice.

    It's a difficult decision to make for someone starting on the walk of life and wanting to still have a job in 10 years time when the technology makes them redundant and going back to school again and again for retraining really doesn't makes your day.
    Ian.

  11. #31
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    The demand for manual labour will continue to decrease. Think hunter/gatherer to farmer to coal miner to machine operator to ...
    But I will confidently predict that the demand for brains, design skills, and understanding will be with us for a long long time.
    The laugh that is called AI is little more than heavy number crunching and applied statistics, and will remain that way for hundreds of years.

    Cheer
    Roger

  12. #32
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    I think our buttless Operators of the future are pretty sexy nonetheless. So dumb they can't even hit the Green Button as accurately as a Human Operator can, so see, we aren't all doomed ;-)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKrlXyLQbwM

  13. #33

    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    a lot of that robot type stuff has been around for 25 yrs or so . It's obviously becoming more refined and its pretty cool but people are still needed to some level . Japan has been doing crazy stuff for a long time now .
    It would still never jive in jobbing shops where you'd find the bulk of seasoned machinists . And for the most part that's where the money is

    I look at it in this sense , most shops are cheap in their spending which is why we aren't getting replaced any time soon .

    I've worked on cell systems in production shops and they are awesome , but even then companies aren't willing to take on the expenditure of a cell when they can put that money into more machines and hire button pushers .
    The last company that I worked at wouldn't even entertain the idea of buying a lathe with twin spindles and live tooling simply because of the initial cost . The efficiency of the machine would have paid for itself in no time , and it would have saved a bit in scrap since it would have eliminated numerous other operations . Efficiency was the key point
    A multi-pallet system in the same shop would have had a major improvement on the process , especially since they can be run lights out and monitored from anywhere . I worked on one system where we would take turns going to the shop on the weekends and load the pallets every 8 hours , then it was lights out .
    The funniest thing about it was they didn't even want to hear about how the process worked , but they had every unreasonable reason to shoot it down . Too many production shops are like this and they flat out feel it's cheaper to have one or 2 key guys overseeing everything , with a bunch of guys pushing buttons .

    I sit alone in my shop watching movies while at least 4 small stand alone 3-4 axis machines are running my products . That alone has replaced a heck of a lot of work as it would have done in the past but , I can't see things being much different in the future . Production shops will continue with automating and jobbing shops will never die , jobbers will have better machines but the work force likely won't change much if at all

  14. #34
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Quote Originally Posted by metalmayhem View Post
    I sit alone in my shop watching movies while at least 4 small stand alone 3-4 axis machines are running my products . That alone has replaced a heck of a lot of work as it would have done in the past but , I can't see things being much different in the future . Production shops will continue with automating and jobbing shops will never die , jobbers will have better machines but the work force likely won't change much if at all
    +1. Sound much like myself with my beats headphones and 42" monitor, while parts flying in&out of the machines. Good times.

    As Ian best described; the robotic tech/trend is evolving rapidly and getting cheaper by the weeks. You can already source 6ax bots & and ctrl out of china for a fraction of what those Fanuc worth (Buy 1 get 5 free, sort of deal). That on its own is kinda scary. Although I'm with you about the fact that we'll always need HR to fulfill the most critical tasks; whether that is to set-up those bots, repair them, or hell "Operate/babysit them", there are still and will always be a whole lot of jobs being created. No worries!

  15. #35
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Sp we still have a skilled workforce, and we still have Dilbertian pointy-headed managers.
    What has changed?

    Cheers

  16. #36
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Well, I would go back to the origins of automation, possibly in France if my knowledge is correct, and put the Jaquard loom control as the absolute forerunner of the automation industry.

    The thinking that went into that system had to be so far ahead of it's time that I think if you went back in time and got rid of the inventor then the weaving industry would still be hand fed......I may be wrong on that analogy, the Chinese "could" probably claim to have done it thousands of years previously.

    I had a discussion with a mate about automation and he said ……"but what if something goes wrong and you aren't there?"...…...I said, "you have inbuilt sensors to detect out of the ordinary actions that stop the machine before it goes awol"...…...and he said...... ''but what if it goes wrong and you aren't there", so I said...….."it has inbuilt sensors to detect out of the ordinary actions before it goes awol"...……..and he said,...…"yes I know, but what if it goes wrong and you aren't there"?......so I said...……"it has inbuilt sensors to detect...………...I think that sums up the state of the art if you want to go hands free into production.

    Now I have to define AI.....what is AI...…..I think it would be the "if" factor as opposed to the "when"...….Humans decide "if"......a sensor dependent machine controller can only decide "when".

    One day, the smallest part of a cloned Human brain that has autonomy over it's destiny will be the insert in a machine controller that only has one function and that is to decide "ïf"...…...you don't need AI if you just want something to function automatically whatever the weather.

    Imagine...…..the AIU......an Artificial Intelligence Union.....the wheel is coming full circle.
    Ian..

  17. #37
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    ''but what if it goes wrong and you aren't there"
    Or perhaps, as we are seeing all the time with so-called automated cars, what if the human is not paying any attention?
    In some ways, automation is far more reliable than humans.

    Cheers
    Roger

  18. #38
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    In that case the choice is yours...…..a driverless Uber taxi once killed a woman …..I think this was a few months back.
    Ian.

  19. #39
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Now I have to define AI.....what is AI...…..
    .
    Let's do this the other way around! Let AI define you, or stereotype you based on your portrait. If it tags you "An Operator" then you are pretty much fck'ed imo, bots will own you soon. You'll be okay if it calls "Machinist", I think.

    https://imagenet-roulette.paglen.com/
    ImageNet is one of the most important and historically significant training sets in artificial intelligence. In the words of its creators, the idea behind ImageNet was to “map out the entire world of objects.”

  20. #40
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    Re: Machinist or Machine Operator? You decide..

    I would say that a device that is controlled by AI has an autonomous freedom to decide about an outcome irrespective of the directive given, the only constraint is that it will be switched off if the outcome is not favourable to the directive.

    A slave in that scenario would be under the threat of 100 lashes if he/she did not comply with an order even though there is a freedom of thought to disobey.

    That means that if you apply AI to any situation you get a number of choices for an outcome beyond your control and provided you were in tune with the AI then the outcome will happen.

    AI therefore must have a 100% loyalty factor to the director that overrides any need to think outside of the box......that means you no longer have intelligence just compliance and CNC is at that stage right now.

    You can of course have an AI loose cannon that thinks for itself, but who would want to have that type of dictator in your proximity.

    I watched the film Oblivion with wotsis name being a drone technician and the drones flying around all over the place deciding what to zap etc.....if that is the result of applying AI we will be doomed.

    We do not understand what makes the Human mind tick but we want to have an artificial one that thinks for itself.....if that is not the blind leading the blind I don't know what is.
    Ian.

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