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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
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    841

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    I get exactly what you are saying and it does make more sense and is a better long term solution. The leveling screws are a good idea. Would you put them on both sides of the rail or just one side? I am picturing on both? This would give you total stand off in areas that are real out of wack.
    You would want to use plates with leveling screws on both sides. I believe that would be an easier solution than trying to make one side match the unmodified other side. Also, you have the dishing in the frame tubing to deal with. Leveling plates on both sides would take care of the dishing issue on both sides.

    I'd go with what's called a "dog point" set screw for leveling. It has a flat bottom, which won't dig in over time. I've also commented before about using a filler under the plates to avoid deflection. Once the rails are where you want them, you inject the specialized epoxy under the plates. To make the plates removable, you can coat the screws and bottom side of the plate with a release agent. It would be a fussy process. You would probably want to use some sort of machine leveling epoxy grout. You might also be able to make up a suitable epoxy with something like a West System product and fillers, which would probably be a whole lot cheaper (as if any epoxy is cheap ). I'd do a lot of experimenting to make sure I could confidently pull it off.

    Keep in mind that this solution is nothing like trying to level the frame with epoxy. From what I can tell, few, if any, have succeeded in the effort. Just looking at the way the epoxy goes down looks like a recipe for failure. I briefly considered it for the Saturn I sent back, but pretty quickly discarded it. I question the wisdom of trying to use epoxy as a mounting surface for linear rails in any event. I would worry that over time the epoxy might distort. With the above-proposed method, the set screws are doing the heavy lifting. The epoxy is only used in a 'supporting role', so to speak.

    One other thing to think about. when using set screw for leveling and fixing screws to hold everything in place. If the fixing screws aren't tight enough, the plate will move. If too tight, the plate can distort (unless you were to use for set screws at each fixing screw). Striking the right balance could be a tricky proposition. Hopefully, an epoxy filler would mitigate or eliminate the potential problem.

    Gary

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    841

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    Yes I would put them on both sides, and I was thinking about the same potential problem of have some small gap's.

    My thoughts are the square tube is hollow anyway so I'm thinking that if the flat bar is 0.375" thick, thicker than the machine tube and you have enough bolt's attaching it to the tube and mount the set screws close to the linear rail that it wouldn't be able to flex and would be as rigid or even more rigid than what is currently going on.

    Also if you found once mounted and leveled that there was a big gap you could always try to inject some epoxy under the flat bar, or use some slow setting epoxy and lay it down prior to installing the flat bar. I personally don't like the epoxy idea since it would be a mess and have potential for messing everything up if it set up to fast or you didn't get it leveled and it set up.

    To me it would have to be pumped in after everything was perfect and you knew nothing needed further adjustments, I haven't looked for any material that could maybe be used and I also don't know how much adjustment will be needed and how much of a gap you will have.

    So it's kinda something that I would have to to try and see if there would be any issues. It seems like it would work but obviously I haven't done it yet so I'm not 100% sure since I haven't tried it yet.

    Hopefully it makes sense and if it doesn't like I said before I can do a drawing when I get some free time.

    Dan, it looks like we are on the same general track. You and I were independently working on a similar reply.

    Look up machine setting epoxy grout. It is used to level heavy machinery. Probably not available in small quantities, though. That's why something like West System epoxy with a filler came to mind.

    As far as injecting is concerned, it could be done in sections. I've seen some instructions for injecting, but cannot find them right now. It just amounts to taping up the edges and leaving some openings at the top of the edges for injecting. Fortunately, since the set screws are pulling the laboring oar for support, a less than perfect job would probably still be adequate. I'd sure want to do a lot of practicing with material off the machine before trying for real

    Gary

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Posts
    3

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    I have not purchased a machine from Nathan, but I have tried to contact him via voice and email messaging 3 or 4 times. No response. For someone to run a business like this is pathetic I don't care if he does work a full time job. I recommend looking into another manufacture before I would purchase anything from a company that takes your money and does not return inquiries.

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    109
    I'm embarrassed to say I have always been measuring from rail to rail but it occurred to me to measure a few other points on the frame. One end is over an 1/8" wider than the other. Hahaha...if I didn't laugh I would have to cry. What a sack of ****. I have been looking at this machine:

    https://cnc4newbie.com/store/en/ultimate-kits-c70/

    Or ordering extrusion and try to transfer parts from the piece of crap Aon to a new frame. What do you guys think of the cnc4newbie machine? Obviously not quit the same level of machine a what the Saturn was supposed to be but seems to be very well thought out and we'll made.

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    621

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    I'm embarrassed to say I have always been measuring from rail to rail but it occurred to me to measure a few other points on the frame. One end is over an 1/8" wider than the other. Hahaha...if I didn't laugh I would have to cry. What a sack of ****. I have been looking at this machine:

    https://cnc4newbie.com/store/en/ultimate-kits-c70/

    Or ordering extrusion and try to transfer parts from the piece of crap Aon to a new frame. What do you guys think of the cnc4newbie machine? Obviously not quit the same level of machine a what the Saturn was supposed to be but seems to be very well thought out and we'll made.
    I think for the 1500 take the machine apart and start calling around to local shops and have a good shop look into fixing the frame or if it's more cost-effective weld you up a new one and have the surfaces machined. If you don't have anyone you know is capable, then I would suggest doing what GME did and buy extrusion and basically duplicate the steel frame out of extrusion. If you went the extrusion route you could use the router as is to machine all the mounting plates, and just swap the parts over after you get the new frame done. I think you will be pretty disappointed with the kit you posted it doesn't look very robust and you might be going down another rabbit hole.

    Or if you can sell the saturn as a project or do some of the things we suggested to get it reliable and recoup a decent amount of your investment, you might want to look at David's Bragga machine he's selling. They look very well built and he seems to be a perfectionist so I personally would take a chance on buying one if I didn't have a Saturn.

    Just my thoughts on what I personally would do if I wasn't able to get my machine up and running reliably, fortunately my frame wasn't as bad as yours and Gary's were. Mines not perfect yet but at least it's functional after a lot of work and does a really good job so far, as for longevity goes ask me a year from now.

    Dan

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    841

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    I'm embarrassed to say I have always been measuring from rail to rail but it occurred to me to measure a few other points on the frame. One end is over an 1/8" wider than the other. Hahaha...if I didn't laugh I would have to cry. What a sack of ****. I have been looking at this machine:

    https://cnc4newbie.com/store/en/ultimate-kits-c70/

    Or ordering extrusion and try to transfer parts from the piece of crap Aon to a new frame. What do you guys think of the cnc4newbie machine? Obviously not quit the same level of machine a what the Saturn was supposed to be but seems to be very well thought out and we'll made.

    Way too lightweight for my taste. About the only things to transfer are your steppers (assuming you have NEMA 23s). NEMA 34s are way too much for a machine like you linked to. Also note that the machine uses acme screws, instead of ball screws. Changing over to ballscrews downstream might be a problem. The base unit is listed as the 500, which I take to be 500mm, or just under 20 inches. Pretty small. If you were to put a spindle on that gantry, I'll bet you would see some interesting deflection. No recommendation here. :nono:

    Gary

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1740

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    I'm embarrassed to say I have always been measuring from rail to rail but it occurred to me to measure a few other points on the frame. One end is over an 1/8" wider than the other. Hahaha...if I didn't laugh I would have to cry. What a sack of ****. I have been looking at this machine:

    https://cnc4newbie.com/store/en/ultimate-kits-c70/

    Or ordering extrusion and try to transfer parts from the piece of crap Aon to a new frame. What do you guys think of the cnc4newbie machine? Obviously not quit the same level of machine a what the Saturn was supposed to be but seems to be very well thought out and we'll made.
    So is Nate still selling machines? It would be interesting if someone lives close to that business could check.

    As far as measurements go, as long as the linear rails are parallel to each and level across the bed with one another thats all that is needed. You will never get an aluminum extrusion frame as solid as a welded one. The aluminum is not suppose to be a good base for the rails, unless its been ground.

    I think there has been much discussion on here already on how you can make the frame better.... so far nothing has been done.

    If you are serious get a real machinist to look at your frame, yes pay him for his time and have him quote the repairs needed. Strip the frame down and let him do the welding and grinding in his shop.

    Or strip the frame down and take to a shop that can do the repairs. Thats the only way its going to be done right.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    109
    I realize I have asked for a lot of input and not done anything about it yet. I have a 2 yr old and a 4 yr old and work about 70 hours a week. There is not much time left over to tinker. I don't know anyone that could help with trueing the frame and machining it and honestly sounds super expensive. I suppose I could have someone come out to look at it but I am leaning towards just building a new frame. The next option after I check a few other things out on the machine would be just to cut it in half and then make some joining plates, square and bolt back together.

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    Way too lightweight for my taste. About the only things to transfer are your steppers (assuming you have NEMA 23s). NEMA 34s are way too much for a machine like you linked to. Also note that the machine uses acme screws, instead of ball screws. Changing over to ballscrews downstream might be a problem. The base unit is listed as the 500, which I take to be 500mm, or just under 20 inches. Pretty small. If you were to put a spindle on that gantry, I'll bet you would see some interesting deflection. No recommendation here. :nono:

    Gary
    Thanks Gary,
    Yes it's pretty light weight. But it is very comparable to the cncrouterparts.com basic benchtop unit, which also uses the same size extrusions for construction and lead screws. I thought it might be a viable plug and play option. I realize it would have been more of a hobby machine than a true professional tool. I'm probably over thinking this whole thing. Just need to commit to fixing this pile and start tearing into it. That is how I generally work...if I try to plan every detail I never get started. I need to see the nuts and bolts and solve each problem as I run into them.

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    109
    I am going to cut the cross members right down the middle. This will allow the frame rails to be parallel. If I just get the rails parallel then the drives at least on one side will be misaligned. This will also allow me to adjust the cross members pointing slightly down or slightly up in new center joint to help fix some of the flatness / squareness and help get rid of any of the toe in or out of the vertical uprights. Then I can just shim the table and plane it off. I'm sure it's a very farmer like solution to some of the more educated and experienced here. Hopefully I can use this to tune out most of the issues with the frame and at that point call it good enough.

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1740

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Are you talking about a Saturn 2, cutting it apart in the center and re-welding?
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Are you talking about a Saturn 2, cutting it apart in the center and re-welding?
    Yes it is a Saturn 2x4'. I think there are 5 cross members. I don't know if I would re weld or make some plates and bolt it.

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    841

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    I am going to cut the cross members right down the middle. This will allow the frame rails to be parallel. If I just get the rails parallel then the drives at least on one side will be misaligned. This will also allow me to adjust the cross members pointing slightly down or slightly up in new center joint to help fix some of the flatness / squareness and help get rid of any of the toe in or out of the vertical uprights. Then I can just shim the table and plane it off. I'm sure it's a very farmer like solution to some of the more educated and experienced here. Hopefully I can use this to tune out most of the issues with the frame and at that point call it good enough.


    You're braver than me, and I'm a pretty handy guys with a shop full toys I know how to use (MIG, TIG, 2 plasma torches + the big woodworking stuff for furniture and cabinets). There is a silver lining, though. Once you've cut the frame into two pieces, it will be easier to get into your truck or trailer when you cart it off to the scrap yard.

    Gary

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    109
    Either way... whatever happens...I'll know what to do next ...I just want to keep it simple and solve as many problems in one swoop as I can. The machine is up on the stand from Fine line...which has bolts holding it in each corner. Just gonna double triple check for level on the stand and then kind of use that as reference for "flat"...then hopefully it's just a matter of moving one end in to parallel. I'm thinking I will cut through all but the last cross member and basically cut all the way through just leaving one wall of that last cross member so it's not a total slop fest trying to get it aligned.

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    15362

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    Either way... whatever happens...I'll know what to do next ...I just want to keep it simple and solve as many problems in one swoop as I can. The machine is up on the stand from Fine line...which has bolts holding it in each corner. Just gonna double triple check for level on the stand and then kind of use that as reference for "flat"...then hopefully it's just a matter of moving one end in to parallel. I'm thinking I will cut through all but the last cross member and basically cut all the way through just leaving one wall of that last cross member so it's not a total slop fest trying to get it aligned.
    So that it does not move around too much while cutting the other cross members, after cutting the first cross member, bolt or clamp a temporary plate or angle iron to it to hold it and then cut the other cross members
    Mactec54

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1740

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    Either way... whatever happens...I'll know what to do next ...I just want to keep it simple and solve as many problems in one swoop as I can. The machine is up on the stand from Fine line...which has bolts holding it in each corner. Just gonna double triple check for level on the stand and then kind of use that as reference for "flat"...then hopefully it's just a matter of moving one end in to parallel. I'm thinking I will cut through all but the last cross member and basically cut all the way through just leaving one wall of that last cross member so it's not a total slop fest trying to get it aligned.
    Your opening a can of worms. What equipment and measuring tools to you have to get it aligned to within .005 or so? How are you going to deal with the warping and distortion after and during the welding? If you plan on welding and do as Mac and others have suggested take somewhere and spend a $1000 +/- to get it ground flat and true.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  17. #117
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    236

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Just an update for anyone who is following along...I emailed Nate last night about some spare parts and got a response this morning (quick response). I replied to him a few hours later but did not get a second reply. He did indicate that he is still in business and had the parts I was interested in. YMMV.

    -Robert

  18. #118
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    12
    I purchased a Saturn 2 about 18 months ago and haven’t gotten it calibrated yet, I have tried contacting Nate many times for technical support and been ghosted.
    I was told my machine would be plug and play and was not under the impression so much would be required to get it calibrated / running.
    I live near Toledo, Ohio anyone know where I could get some hands on assistance or at the very least detailed videos? Thanks fir any help!!!

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    729

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    What sort of help are you needing for calibration?

    David
    David
    Romans 3:23
    Etsy shop opened 12/1/17 - CurlyWoodShop

  20. #120
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    12
    Mainly I have never really gotten it running. I have moved each axis but that’s about it.
    I am sure it needs to be squared and my limit switches don’t always work.
    The bottom line is I don’t enjoy tinkering with it, I just want to cut. Looking for someone or for videos to clearly walk me through what to do step by step.
    Thanks for any help!!

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