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  1. #73
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Only issue with MIG welding the holes shut is the welded area is going to be harder than the steel used. You will have great difficultly drilling and tapping new holes without breaking a drill bit or tap. Yes I have done TIG welding and IF I did that I would use stainless rod which would be tougher than carbon steel rod but flows a lot faster and easier. With TIG the metal would have to be absolutely clean.

    So this machine is a 2x4 foot and was done prior to the Saturn 2. Can you post a picture of your machine?
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router

  2. #74
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    I will take some pics when I get home tonight. It basically is a Saturn 2 but has the Saturn 1 bracing instead of the welded bracing

  3. #75

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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    I will take some pics when I get home tonight. It basically is a Saturn 2 but has the Saturn 1 bracing instead of the welded bracing
    It's the same as my machine.

    George is right about a tig welder being better, you still can use a mig if you drill out the holes so you are only drilling into the weld it's just going to be harder to drill through. Another option is to drill out the suspect holes oversized tap them with a bigger size use a long bolt that you can thread in to where it bottoms out in the tube, apply loctite cut the head off the bolt and grind it flush, then drill and tap the bolt aka plug. No heat involved no welding just a drill, tap, grinder, loctite some labor and some choice words for fineline that you will be thinking about while working on it. .

  4. #76
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    It's the same as my machine.

    George is right about a tig welder being better, you still can use a mig if you drill out the holes so you are only drilling into the weld it's just going to be harder to drill through. Another option is to drill out the suspect holes oversized tap them with a bigger size use a long bolt that you can thread in to where it bottoms out in the tube, apply loctite cut the head off the bolt and grind it flush, then drill and tap the bolt aka plug. No heat involved no welding just a drill, tap, grinder, loctite some labor and some choice words for fineline that you will be thinking about while working on it. .
    Some of the mounting holes look like they are off enough that it would take a pretty large oversize bolt to be able to then drill and tap it.

    Ditto on the MIG weld plug being a beast to drill and tap. Without a magnetic drill press, (or maybe even with one) I question whether you could pull it off.

    TIG is definitely a better option, but it takes practice to do it right. If you've never done it, you'll spend most of your time on a grinding wheel cleaning and sharpening your tungstens. If you have a friend with a TIG and willingness to help you out, I wouldn't be inclined to use stainless rod. (Sorry Bill, and no disrespect meant. I suspect you and I have probably had different experiences). Stainless is a dog to drill and tap. It work hardens something awful. I've filled my share of holes with my TIG, but I have to admit that I've never tried creating a plug to be drilled and tapped. So, I can't say whether you would get the same hardening problems problems with the TIG as with a MIG.

    I guess I'd be inclined to go back to suggestions made on my Saturn 2 build thread. Forget the existing threaded holes. Add a plate, whether it's steel or aluminum, drill the rail mounting holes in it, and create slotted holes closer to the edges of the plate for mounting it. The slotted holes will give you lateral adjustability for mounting the plate and getting the linear rails parallel to each other. I believe Dan (NTL) suggested adding set screws get the plates in the same plane. Were I doing it, once I had the plate where I wanted them, I would inject a special epoxy under the plates to fill any gaps and provide more support - like the expanses between the set screws where you would experience flex. This is way different than epoxy leveling, which is more likely to fail than succeed. This is just using epoxy as a filler material between two fixed surfaces. You would leave the set screws in place to continue fulfilling their support duties.

    Another thread to look at is Jack/Ponder Labs Saturn 2 build thread. Lots of suggestions there too and you reading them will save having to repeat them here. Here's the link: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/finel...cnc-forum.html.



    Erik, I see what you mean about the aluminum angle braces. I would have to try really hard to mess them up as badly as yours. The size of the burrs is considerable, and are probably enough to cause some degree of binding them the brace is tightened down. They are clearly indicative of the holes in the braces not lining up in either the holes in the gantry, holes in the interface plates, or both. It might help to file off the burr back to flat surfaces, but you shouldn't hold your breath. Cannot hurt to try, though. No out-of-pocket costs and minimal effort involved.

    I'm still thinking you may be better off scrapping the steel gantry and going with a 3060 80/20 extrusion. the 3060 profile is pretty pricey, but in the aluminum extrusion world, it's about as good as you are going to find. The metric counterpart is slightly larger (80mm x 160mm) in most every way. Although marginally so, it should be a bit stiffer than the imperial. I went with the 80mm x 160mm extrusion, but for reasons unrelated to stiffness or strength. I'd add a 3/8" interface that mounts to the underside of the gantry and mounts to the top of the interface plate that mounts to the linear rail bearings. If you do it like I did, you have a huge amount of adustability for square. It also allows you to fabricate angle bracing that is far superior than the 1" x 2" braces yours came with. Your angle braces might actually work with an extrusion gantry. That's what they were used on originally.

    Gary

  5. #77
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    So this machine is a 2x4 foot and was done prior to the Saturn 2. Can you post a picture of your machine?

    Bill, I don't think so. Recall that David Falkner's Saturn used an extrusion gantry with the same angle braces as Erik. When it went to Saturn 2, the gantry moved from aluminum to steel, but the revision did not include welded angle braces and mounting plates like the 4 x 4. The current version is a sort of hybrid. Here's a picture from the FLA website:



    Gary

  6. #78
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    Another long day at work. Sorry will try and get pics tomorrow.

  7. #79
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    I thought David had the first Saturn 2 or one of the first anyway. Stainless in metal that thin as used on the frame anyway would not be an issue to drill and tap, If you have the proper sharp drill and tap was a 2 flute gun tap as I use. But my suggestion from months ago was the plate with slotted mounting holes. No need to weld and re-drill existing. Wether its ground flat or not is not an issue but as long is your machinist is doing the slotted holes a little surface grinding would be no big deal.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router

  8. #80
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I thought David had the first Saturn 2 or one of the first anyway. Stainless in metal that thin as used on the frame anyway would not be an issue to drill and tap, If you have the proper sharp drill and tap was a 2 flute gun tap as I use. But my suggestion from months ago was the plate with slotted mounting holes. No need to weld and re-drill existing. Wether its ground flat or not is not an issue but as long is your machinist is doing the slotted holes a little surface grinding would be no big deal.
    Bill, I went back and checked David's build thread. Looks like it his is a Saturn, not Saturn 2. He identified it as a Saturn and his has the extrusion gantry (vs. the Saturn 2's steel gantry).

    I agree with the slotted holes idea, although there is no need to fill/redrill any of the holes. Rather, just shift the rails to the front or rear a little and start over with mounting holes. Unfortunately, that doesn't solve all the problems. There is still the problem of the dished face of the tubing. There is also the problem of drilling/tapping 2 parallel lines of holes. 25mm linear rails have very little adjustability. The mounting hole is 7mm and the mounting screw is 6mm, so only about .040" difference. I don't trust that I could reliably get that straight of a line freehand. It would be tough, even if you had a magnetic drill press - you would still have to get it aligned correctly for each hole. Blow it for one hole and you're back to plug welding and redrilling/tapping. That makes the slotted holes look much more attractive - even though it also means paying a machine shop to make the plates. You still need a larger mill, because you will be dealing with multiple vises and multiple set ups to get full length plates. 5 feet+ is way more X axis travel than you find on a typical knee mill and a lot of VMCs.

    All-in-all, it's a tough situation. The deficiencies in the frame, mounting surfaces and parallelism can probably be accommodated, but at what cost?

    SUGGESTION: Erik, draw the fix and take to some machine shops for estimates. That way, you know what you are up against cost wise, and whether it's financial feasible for you. Remember, you still may have some issues with the gantry that need addressing. Given what Nate or his machine shop did to the angle braces suggest something will need to addressed there as well.

    Gary

  9. #81

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Ours is the prototype Saturn, first one made. So yes, it would be the Saturn (1?) at this point, long before there was a Saturn 2.

    David
    David
    Romans 3:23
    Etsy shop opened 12/1/17 - CurlyWoodShop

  10. #82
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    I agree with the slotted holes idea, although there is no need to fill/redrill any of the holes. Rather, just shift the rails to the front or rear a little and start over with mounting holes. Unfortunately, that doesn't solve all the problems. There is still the problem of the dished face of the tubing. There is also the problem of drilling/tapping 2 parallel lines of holes. 25mm linear rails have very little adjustability.

    Gary your mounting a .375 thick CR flat steel 2.5 (or 2.25 ) inches wide on the existing 3 inch square tube. The 2.5 (or 2.25) flat has slotted holes made for adjustability by your machine shop and then surface ground. He can then mount the linear rail. Why would you need to adjust the linear rail also when you had slots on the mounting plate? The dished face of the tubing does not exist on mine, if it did thats what the CR plate is for, to bridge that dish.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router

  11. #83
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I agree with the slotted holes idea, although there is no need to fill/redrill any of the holes. Rather, just shift the rails to the front or rear a little and start over with mounting holes. Unfortunately, that doesn't solve all the problems. There is still the problem of the dished face of the tubing. There is also the problem of drilling/tapping 2 parallel lines of holes. 25mm linear rails have very little adjustability.

    Gary your mounting a .375 thick CR flat steel 2.5 (or 2.25 ) inches wide on the existing 3 inch square tube. The 2.5 (or 2.25) flat has slotted holes made for adjustability by your machine shop and then surface ground. He can then mount the linear rail. Why would you need to adjust the linear rail also when you had slots on the mounting plate? The dished face of the tubing does not exist on mine, if it did thats what the CR plate is for, to bridge that dish.

    Bill, I believe you misread my post. I was talking about the problems associated with trying rehab the machine without a plate, not with one. Read the rest of my post. I transitioned from drilling new holes and what that might entail to using a plate with the slotted holes I also suggested Erik make a drawing of the plates, take it to some machine shops, and get bids for having a pair made up. The only drilling would be threaded holes within the confines of the slots to hold the plate. Since the those holes don't require dead on accuracy, Erik should be able to do that without expensive specialized equipment.

    Personally, I would probably go with a 3" wide piece of steel and inset the slots such that they just clear of the tubing interior sides. The 25mm bearing blocks are typically 48mm (about 1.89 inches) wide. 2.25" flat bar would leave only .18" on each side beyond the bearing block width. which would limit the type of fastener you could use to fix the plate. A 2.5" wide plate would only add an additional 1/8" on each side. In contrast, a 3" plate would give .555" on each side beyond the bearing block edges. Remember that the distance from the plate to the bottom of the bearing block is only 5.5mm (under 1/4"). A narrower plate might necessitate some of the fastener head going under the bearing block, which probably wouldn't work out badly. A wider plate might provide a wider range of possibilities at a pretty negligible cost. There may be a downside to a wider plate, but if there is, it's not jumping out at me. Just my 2 cents.

    Gary

  12. #84
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    https://photos.app.goo.gl/xWknwjqbCP7bBbZk8

    That is a link to more pics. The more I dig in the more depressing this gets. When I bought the machine we had just moved into a new house and our son was born soon after. Of course I was moved to a more demanding site at work as well which meant more money but also a much longer commute and much longer hours. This kind of was supposed to be my last hurrah for my shop since the kid have to obviously take priority. My wife already has given me the go ahead on a new machine since she understands how big a pile of trash this one is. It will just have to be something I put cash aside for and try to save enough over the next year or so. I can't even really sell it to anyone in good faith. I was hoping I could get it running good enough and sell...but I would feel like **** if I dumped this on someone.
    I like the plate idea but I honestly don't think I'm going to try and go much further if at all.

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