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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    729

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Ours is the prototype Saturn, first one made. So yes, it would be the Saturn (1?) at this point, long before there was a Saturn 2.

    David
    David
    Romans 3:23
    Etsy shop opened 12/1/17 - CurlyWoodShop

  2. #82
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    Sep 2005
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    1740

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    I agree with the slotted holes idea, although there is no need to fill/redrill any of the holes. Rather, just shift the rails to the front or rear a little and start over with mounting holes. Unfortunately, that doesn't solve all the problems. There is still the problem of the dished face of the tubing. There is also the problem of drilling/tapping 2 parallel lines of holes. 25mm linear rails have very little adjustability.

    Gary your mounting a .375 thick CR flat steel 2.5 (or 2.25 ) inches wide on the existing 3 inch square tube. The 2.5 (or 2.25) flat has slotted holes made for adjustability by your machine shop and then surface ground. He can then mount the linear rail. Why would you need to adjust the linear rail also when you had slots on the mounting plate? The dished face of the tubing does not exist on mine, if it did thats what the CR plate is for, to bridge that dish.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  3. #83
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    Apr 2016
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    841

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I agree with the slotted holes idea, although there is no need to fill/redrill any of the holes. Rather, just shift the rails to the front or rear a little and start over with mounting holes. Unfortunately, that doesn't solve all the problems. There is still the problem of the dished face of the tubing. There is also the problem of drilling/tapping 2 parallel lines of holes. 25mm linear rails have very little adjustability.

    Gary your mounting a .375 thick CR flat steel 2.5 (or 2.25 ) inches wide on the existing 3 inch square tube. The 2.5 (or 2.25) flat has slotted holes made for adjustability by your machine shop and then surface ground. He can then mount the linear rail. Why would you need to adjust the linear rail also when you had slots on the mounting plate? The dished face of the tubing does not exist on mine, if it did thats what the CR plate is for, to bridge that dish.

    Bill, I believe you misread my post. I was talking about the problems associated with trying rehab the machine without a plate, not with one. Read the rest of my post. I transitioned from drilling new holes and what that might entail to using a plate with the slotted holes I also suggested Erik make a drawing of the plates, take it to some machine shops, and get bids for having a pair made up. The only drilling would be threaded holes within the confines of the slots to hold the plate. Since the those holes don't require dead on accuracy, Erik should be able to do that without expensive specialized equipment.

    Personally, I would probably go with a 3" wide piece of steel and inset the slots such that they just clear of the tubing interior sides. The 25mm bearing blocks are typically 48mm (about 1.89 inches) wide. 2.25" flat bar would leave only .18" on each side beyond the bearing block width. which would limit the type of fastener you could use to fix the plate. A 2.5" wide plate would only add an additional 1/8" on each side. In contrast, a 3" plate would give .555" on each side beyond the bearing block edges. Remember that the distance from the plate to the bottom of the bearing block is only 5.5mm (under 1/4"). A narrower plate might necessitate some of the fastener head going under the bearing block, which probably wouldn't work out badly. A wider plate might provide a wider range of possibilities at a pretty negligible cost. There may be a downside to a wider plate, but if there is, it's not jumping out at me. Just my 2 cents.

    Gary

  4. #84
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    Apr 2010
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    109
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/xWknwjqbCP7bBbZk8

    That is a link to more pics. The more I dig in the more depressing this gets. When I bought the machine we had just moved into a new house and our son was born soon after. Of course I was moved to a more demanding site at work as well which meant more money but also a much longer commute and much longer hours. This kind of was supposed to be my last hurrah for my shop since the kid have to obviously take priority. My wife already has given me the go ahead on a new machine since she understands how big a pile of trash this one is. It will just have to be something I put cash aside for and try to save enough over the next year or so. I can't even really sell it to anyone in good faith. I was hoping I could get it running good enough and sell...but I would feel like **** if I dumped this on someone.
    I like the plate idea but I honestly don't think I'm going to try and go much further if at all.

  5. #85
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    Apr 2016
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    841

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/xWknwjqbCP7bBbZk8

    That is a link to more pics. The more I dig in the more depressing this gets. When I bought the machine we had just moved into a new house and our son was born soon after. Of course I was moved to a more demanding site at work as well which meant more money but also a much longer commute and much longer hours. This kind of was supposed to be my last hurrah for my shop since the kid have to obviously take priority. My wife already has given me the go ahead on a new machine since she understands how big a pile of trash this one is. It will just have to be something I put cash aside for and try to save enough over the next year or so. I can't even really sell it to anyone in good faith. I was hoping I could get it running good enough and sell...but I would feel like **** if I dumped this on someone.
    I like the plate idea but I honestly don't think I'm going to try and go much further if at all.


    Wow! Pretty ugly. So, you have confirmed that at least part of the problem is with the misalignment of holes for the bracing. Tighten things down creates binding. Ya gotta wonder how this thing ever went out of the Fineline doors. Nate assembles these things, so he had to know darned well that he was sending out a mess. I used to think Nate was a good guy, but just had some challenges running a small business. Seeing this machine, photos of other machines, and the one I sent back, my opinion has changed dramatically. What can you say about someone who has to know he is selling such a mess, purports to want to help figure out what's wrong, goes dark, and then washes his hands of it? Obviously a rhetorical question. I leave it to the reader to supply the answer.

    Sorry to hear you are considering the machine a total loss and moving on. Completely understandable, though. I got to where you are, except I didn't have to take the loss.

    Gary

  6. #86
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    Sep 2005
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    1740

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Eric where are you located? If your going to sell the whole works for scrap I might be interested.

    Gary its more or less under stood that the plate I purposed would have counter sunk slots for the screws. I read nothing in your post that said your talking about the plate, it talked about moving the rail down to miss the existing screw holes instead of welding.Thats why I referenced your reply in my post.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  7. #87
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    Apr 2016
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    841

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Gary its more or less under stood that the plate I purposed would have counter sunk slots for the screws. I read nothing in your post that said your talking about the plate, it talked about moving the rail down to miss the existing screw holes instead of welding.Thats why I referenced your reply in my post.

    What about the following?

    "That makes the slotted holes look much more attractive - even though it also means paying a machine shop to make the plates. You still need a larger mill, because you will be dealing with multiple vises and multiple set ups to get full length plates. 5 feet+ is way more X axis travel than you find on a typical knee mill and a lot of VMCs.

    All-in-all, it's a tough situation. The deficiencies in the frame, mounting surfaces and parallelism can probably be accommodated, but at what cost?

    SUGGESTION: Erik, draw the fix and take to some machine shops for estimates. That way, you know what you are up against cost wise, and whether it's financial feasible for you. Remember, you still may have some issues with the gantry that need addressing. Given what Nate or his machine shop did to the angle braces suggest something will need to addressed there as well."


  8. #88
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    Apr 2010
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    109
    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Eric where are you located? If your going to sell the whole works for scrap I might be interested.

    Gary its more or less under stood that the plate I purposed would have counter sunk slots for the screws. I read nothing in your post that said your talking about the plate, it talked about moving the rail down to miss the existing screw holes instead of welding.Thats why I referenced your reply in my post.
    I am in Raleigh NC. I would entertain an offer. Not sure what to do yet.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    621

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Eric you have the same thing going on I did with the steel gantry, holes not tapped right and possibly warped from the end caps like mine was. You should try to get a hold of Nate again and see if he will send you a aluminum piece. Its a pain swapping the parts over but it almost completely eliminates the binding. I was just left with still needing to loosen up the bolts that attach to the bearing blocks as I said before, they are the stainless ones in your pictures. I still need to shim out my linear rails to get them flatter and then shim in between the bearing blocks and the aluminum plate that the gantry attaches to. I understand that its frustrating and a bunch of work you shouldn't have to do, but I'm pretty confident that once its done you will have a good performing machine. If he wont send you out the extrusion you can order a piece cut to length for if I remember correctly $150-180 its going to be way cheaper than buying a whole new machine and trying to sell that one. Maybe take a little break from it and try to contact Nate again or look into getting a price on the aluminum extrusion, another option would be to talk to a local machine shop draw up the gantry in a cad software with the proper hole placement as well as where the linear rails and gear rack mount along and get a quote on getting a piece of 3"x6"x.375" steel tube machined with all the mounting surfaces machined flat with a step down to locate the rails and rack. I'm sure it will be much more expensive though than the aluminum extrusion would be, I'm still tempted to do the same thing since it would be nice to have a steel gantry it would also be a good time to have a better gusset installed.

    Dan

  10. #90
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    Sep 2005
    Posts
    1740

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Gary you are right, I did not read down to the end. I skipped the rest because I thought it was understood by my post it was a machine shop job all the way.

    Eric its too far to drive.

    Frankly I would either sue the guy or go to the BBB in that town or state and file a complaint or both. There is No Reason why he can't refund you in full or ship you a new machine. Its a bunch of BS what he shipped you and bad or crappy work does not have an expiration date!
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    841

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    Eric you have the same thing going on I did with the steel gantry, holes not tapped right and possibly warped from the end caps like mine was. You should try to get a hold of Nate again and see if he will send you a aluminum piece. Its a pain swapping the parts over but it almost completely eliminates the binding. I was just left with still needing to loosen up the bolts that attach to the bearing blocks as I said before, they are the stainless ones in your pictures. I still need to shim out my linear rails to get them flatter and then shim in between the bearing blocks and the aluminum plate that the gantry attaches to. I understand that its frustrating and a bunch of work you shouldn't have to do, but I'm pretty confident that once its done you will have a good performing machine. If he wont send you out the extrusion you can order a piece cut to length for if I remember correctly $150-180 its going to be way cheaper than buying a whole new machine and trying to sell that one. Maybe take a little break from it and try to contact Nate again or look into getting a price on the aluminum extrusion, another option would be to talk to a local machine shop draw up the gantry in a cad software with the proper hole placement as well as where the linear rails and gear rack mount along and get a quote on getting a piece of 3"x6"x.375" steel tube machined with all the mounting surfaces machined flat with a step down to locate the rails and rack. I'm sure it will be much more expensive though than the aluminum extrusion would be, I'm still tempted to do the same thing since it would be nice to have a steel gantry it would also be a good time to have a better gusset installed.

    Dan

    The 3060 (3" x 6") extrusion costs $2.95/inch + a $2.90 cut fee + shipping + sales tax. So, if your gantry is 62" (I'm guessing here), the cost will be $182.90 + $2.90 cut fee + about $50 shipping + sales tax in your area in Raleigh. So, Dan's estimate is a little short of the actual cost. You're looking at closer to $235 + sales tax.

    You might go to the 80/20 website (8020.net) and look around. There is an online (searchable) catalog on the site. You can also go to the Ebay 80/20 Garage Sale and look around. Here's a link to it: 8020 Inc Garage Sale | eBay Stores. The garage sale is good for some things, but it is iffy whether you will find the exact length you might want for an extrusion. For what you need, it might be better to order directly off the 8020.net site. FWIW, they get orders out pretty fast and pack stuff well (thick cardboard with stapled on 2 by lumber end caps).

    If you decide to go that route, you will still need to figure out what you want for bracing, You can get by with the 1" X 2" angle braces and 3" aluminum angle, but they can make it tough to square the gantry to your Y axis. I found that out with my first machine. Not much wiggle room. You could go with something like I designed (see my build thread), which gives you easy and more than adequate adjustability. Unfortunately, the gantry is only part of the fix. You would still have to decide what to do about about remounting the Y axis linear rails.

    SUGGESTION: Figure out how you would like to fix the machine and then cost it out. That may help you decide whether to rehab it or scrap it. I agree with Dan about recontacting Nate about getting an extrusion to replace the steel gantry. Nothing to lose by trying. While Nate may be unwilling to take the machine back, bearing a part of the cost to make the machine right might be worth it to him in terms of trying to rehabilitate his reputation. Looking at the situation in practical terms, price a machine you might consider buying - like one from Avid CNC. If you are writing off the expenditure on the Saturn 2 to zero, then the Saturn 2 is a "sunk cost" and no longer relevant. So, you have the cost of a replacement CNC to use for rehab of the Saturn. There is always the issue of throwing good money after bad, and that should not be ignored. Nevertheless, this approach gives you a quantitative and objective way of evaluating the situation. I know from experience how tough it can be, and it's easy to make dispassionate suggestions from where I sit on the left coast in Washington. Still, with information coming in from all directions, it's a way of stepping back and looking at things a little differently. Just my 2 cents.

    Gary

  12. #92
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    Aug 2018
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    621

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Gary he has a 2x4 machine so the gantry is 44.5". I do agree with what you said about weighing out the cost and it's a roll of the dice in my opinion if it's going to be worth fixing it vs buying a new one. It would be nice if he could at least get a piece of extrusion from Finline if he decides to go the rehab route like I did. It would be even nicer if Finline decided to take the machine back for a partial or full l refund or even a replacement machine if that was the route he decided to take but I wouldn't hold my breath.

    It's just a bad deal all the way around since the machines come with a 60 day warranty but in my case I didn't have all the parts to complete the machine until after the 60 days were up. I already had so much money beyond the cost from Finline invested that returning it was never a option. Honestly now that mine is close to dialed I'm pretty happy with the machine, only time aka "hours" on the machine will tell. However if I had to do it over again and knew then what I know now. I would have bought a well constructed import machine and just swapped out the controller for a Acorn and down the road upgrade to some AC servos and would have had a real industrial router, but hey even at my age I'm still learning the hard way.

  13. #93
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    Sep 2005
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    1740

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Gary is there any chance he can reuse the controls and motors like your doing and do it on a Avid machine?
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  14. #94
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    Apr 2010
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Gary is there any chance he can reuse the controls and motors like your doing and do it on a Avid machine?
    I did not buy a plug and play. I am using an Arduino based controller feeding Automation Technologies 542(I think) drivers to nema23 steppers.

  15. #95

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    I would be interest as well - but not without looking at the machine (or what's left of it).

  16. #96
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    Apr 2010
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    109
    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    Eric you have the same thing going on I did with the steel gantry, holes not tapped right and possibly warped from the end caps like mine was. You should try to get a hold of Nate again and see if he will send you a aluminum piece. Its a pain swapping the parts over but it almost completely eliminates the binding. I was just left with still needing to loosen up the bolts that attach to the bearing blocks as I said before, they are the stainless ones in your pictures. I still need to shim out my linear rails to get them flatter and then shim in between the bearing blocks and the aluminum plate that the gantry attaches to. I understand that its frustrating and a bunch of work you shouldn't have to do, but I'm pretty confident that once its done you will have a good performing machine. If he wont send you out the extrusion you can order a piece cut to length for if I remember correctly $150-180 its going to be way cheaper than buying a whole new machine and trying to sell that one. Maybe take a little break from it and try to contact Nate again or look into getting a price on the aluminum extrusion, another option would be to talk to a local machine shop draw up the gantry in a cad software with the proper hole placement as well as where the linear rails and gear rack mount along and get a quote on getting a piece of 3"x6"x.375" steel tube machined with all the mounting surfaces machined flat with a step down to locate the rails and rack. I'm sure it will be much more expensive though than the aluminum extrusion would be, I'm still tempted to do the same thing since it would be nice to have a steel gantry it would also be a good time to have a better gusset installed.

    Dan
    Hey Dan and others,
    Swapping the parts would not be super hard to an extrusion. I suppose I worry about the "good money after bad". I will contact Nate and see if he will send me an extrusion. I'm sure he will continue to ignore me. I really appreciate all the input. The extrusion solves alot of my reservations about trying to fix the machine. I know you mentioned it before but for some reason I was thinking the extrusion was going to be $500-$600. I can justify $200. On the frame rail issue...I think I might have a solution that will be cheap and effective. I am thinking I can drill out the mounting holes and then drill out holes on the bottom side of the frame rails. I realize there are going to be the areas under the frame risers that I won't be able to do this, but if I get really frisky in the future I could use a hole saw to help me access to inside the frame risers. The idea being not to tap the bottom of the rail but to just use a long bolt and then just washer and nut on the bottom. The holes would be over sized to give me adjustment. It's not a perfect solution I realize, but simple and helps me get me going in the right direction within the means I have in my little shop. All the suggestion have been awesome and honestly have helped me visualize different solutions in my head. Please let me know if you guys think this is just a horrible idea.

  17. #97
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    Aug 2018
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    621

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Sounds like it would work, I still think mounting the rails to a piece of flat bar that you have some either sloted or oversized holes that is mounted to the top of the frame tube would be a better option. Wouldn't be much more much more work since the way you want to do it you are drilling two holes anyway for the through hole and I guarantee you will have a tough time getting the top hole to line up with the bottom hole since the drill bit will walk on you since you will be drilling it by hand. If you use a piece of flatbar you can drill it with a drill press and tap it off the machine, also by making the holes that you will bolt to the top of the square tube oversized/sloted if you have some tapped holes on the tube a little bit off you will have plenty of adjustment with the rails mounted to the flat bar to still get the rails parallel to one another. Hopefully this makes sense, if not I can draw something up for you when I get some time.

    I'm thinking about doing the same thing but also adding set screws so I can level the rails with out the need for shiming, with doing it this way you can get it parallel and level in x and z with out the need for shiming material just a hex key wrench. I'm confident it will be better than what we currently have going on with these machines lol. Look at the glass as being half full and that anything you do will be a improvement over it's current state, even using it as a engine stand if you choose to.

  18. #98
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    Apr 2010
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    109
    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    Sounds like it would work, I still think mounting the rails to a piece of flat bar that you have some either sloted or oversized holes that is mounted to the top of the frame tube would be a better option. Wouldn't be much more much more work since the way you want to do it you are drilling two holes anyway for the through hole and I guarantee you will have a tough time getting the top hole to line up with the bottom hole since the drill bit will walk on you since you will be drilling it by hand. If you use a piece of flatbar you can drill it with a drill press and tap it off the machine, also by making the holes that you will bolt to the top of the square tube oversized/sloted if you have some tapped holes on the tube a little bit off you will have plenty of adjustment with the rails mounted to the flat bar to still get the rails parallel to one another. Hopefully this makes sense, if not I can draw something up for you when I get some time.

    I'm thinking about doing the same thing but also adding set screws so I can level the rails with out the need for shiming, with doing it this way you can get it parallel and level in x and z with out the need for shiming material just a hex key wrench. I'm confident it will be better than what we currently have going on with these machines lol. Look at the glass as being half full and that anything you do will be a improvement over it's current state, even using it as a engine stand if you choose to.
    I get exactly what you are saying and it does make more sense and is a better long term solution. The leveling screws are a good idea. Would you put them on both sides of the rail or just one side? I am picturing on both? This would give you total stand off in areas that are real out of wack.

  19. #99
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    Apr 2016
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    841

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Gary is there any chance he can reuse the controls and motors like your doing and do it on a Avid machine?
    Yes, I believe he can. The motors should work on any machine using the same size NEMAs. Ditto for the controller. Even the motor drives units should work with an Avid machine, but probably not with another make. Might be able to make them work with another make with modifications, but hard to tell in a vacuum.

    Gary

  20. #100
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    Aug 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    I get exactly what you are saying and it does make more sense and is a better long term solution. The leveling screws are a good idea. Would you put them on both sides of the rail or just one side? I am picturing on both? This would give you total stand off in areas that are real out of wack.
    Yes I would put them on both sides, and I was thinking about the same potential problem of have some small gap's.

    My thoughts are the square tube is hollow anyway so I'm thinking that if the flat bar is 0.375" thick, thicker than the machine tube and you have enough bolt's attaching it to the tube and mount the set screws close to the linear rail that it wouldn't be able to flex and would be as rigid or even more rigid than what is currently going on.

    Also if you found once mounted and leveled that there was a big gap you could always try to inject some epoxy under the flat bar, or use some slow setting epoxy and lay it down prior to installing the flat bar. I personally don't like the epoxy idea since it would be a mess and have potential for messing everything up if it set up to fast or you didn't get it leveled and it set up.

    To me it would have to be pumped in after everything was perfect and you knew nothing needed further adjustments, I haven't looked for any material that could maybe be used and I also don't know how much adjustment will be needed and how much of a gap you will have.

    So it's kinda something that I would have to to try and see if there would be any issues. It seems like it would work but obviously I haven't done it yet so I'm not 100% sure since I haven't tried it yet.

    Hopefully it makes sense and if it doesn't like I said before I can do a drawing when I get some free time.

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