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  1. #85
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik F View Post
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/xWknwjqbCP7bBbZk8

    That is a link to more pics. The more I dig in the more depressing this gets. When I bought the machine we had just moved into a new house and our son was born soon after. Of course I was moved to a more demanding site at work as well which meant more money but also a much longer commute and much longer hours. This kind of was supposed to be my last hurrah for my shop since the kid have to obviously take priority. My wife already has given me the go ahead on a new machine since she understands how big a pile of trash this one is. It will just have to be something I put cash aside for and try to save enough over the next year or so. I can't even really sell it to anyone in good faith. I was hoping I could get it running good enough and sell...but I would feel like **** if I dumped this on someone.
    I like the plate idea but I honestly don't think I'm going to try and go much further if at all.


    Wow! Pretty ugly. So, you have confirmed that at least part of the problem is with the misalignment of holes for the bracing. Tighten things down creates binding. Ya gotta wonder how this thing ever went out of the Fineline doors. Nate assembles these things, so he had to know darned well that he was sending out a mess. I used to think Nate was a good guy, but just had some challenges running a small business. Seeing this machine, photos of other machines, and the one I sent back, my opinion has changed dramatically. What can you say about someone who has to know he is selling such a mess, purports to want to help figure out what's wrong, goes dark, and then washes his hands of it? Obviously a rhetorical question. I leave it to the reader to supply the answer.

    Sorry to hear you are considering the machine a total loss and moving on. Completely understandable, though. I got to where you are, except I didn't have to take the loss.

    Gary

  2. #86
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Eric where are you located? If your going to sell the whole works for scrap I might be interested.

    Gary its more or less under stood that the plate I purposed would have counter sunk slots for the screws. I read nothing in your post that said your talking about the plate, it talked about moving the rail down to miss the existing screw holes instead of welding.Thats why I referenced your reply in my post.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router

  3. #87
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Gary its more or less under stood that the plate I purposed would have counter sunk slots for the screws. I read nothing in your post that said your talking about the plate, it talked about moving the rail down to miss the existing screw holes instead of welding.Thats why I referenced your reply in my post.

    What about the following?

    "That makes the slotted holes look much more attractive - even though it also means paying a machine shop to make the plates. You still need a larger mill, because you will be dealing with multiple vises and multiple set ups to get full length plates. 5 feet+ is way more X axis travel than you find on a typical knee mill and a lot of VMCs.

    All-in-all, it's a tough situation. The deficiencies in the frame, mounting surfaces and parallelism can probably be accommodated, but at what cost?

    SUGGESTION: Erik, draw the fix and take to some machine shops for estimates. That way, you know what you are up against cost wise, and whether it's financial feasible for you. Remember, you still may have some issues with the gantry that need addressing. Given what Nate or his machine shop did to the angle braces suggest something will need to addressed there as well."


  4. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Eric where are you located? If your going to sell the whole works for scrap I might be interested.

    Gary its more or less under stood that the plate I purposed would have counter sunk slots for the screws. I read nothing in your post that said your talking about the plate, it talked about moving the rail down to miss the existing screw holes instead of welding.Thats why I referenced your reply in my post.
    I am in Raleigh NC. I would entertain an offer. Not sure what to do yet.

  5. #89

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    616

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Eric you have the same thing going on I did with the steel gantry, holes not tapped right and possibly warped from the end caps like mine was. You should try to get a hold of Nate again and see if he will send you a aluminum piece. Its a pain swapping the parts over but it almost completely eliminates the binding. I was just left with still needing to loosen up the bolts that attach to the bearing blocks as I said before, they are the stainless ones in your pictures. I still need to shim out my linear rails to get them flatter and then shim in between the bearing blocks and the aluminum plate that the gantry attaches to. I understand that its frustrating and a bunch of work you shouldn't have to do, but I'm pretty confident that once its done you will have a good performing machine. If he wont send you out the extrusion you can order a piece cut to length for if I remember correctly $150-180 its going to be way cheaper than buying a whole new machine and trying to sell that one. Maybe take a little break from it and try to contact Nate again or look into getting a price on the aluminum extrusion, another option would be to talk to a local machine shop draw up the gantry in a cad software with the proper hole placement as well as where the linear rails and gear rack mount along and get a quote on getting a piece of 3"x6"x.375" steel tube machined with all the mounting surfaces machined flat with a step down to locate the rails and rack. I'm sure it will be much more expensive though than the aluminum extrusion would be, I'm still tempted to do the same thing since it would be nice to have a steel gantry it would also be a good time to have a better gusset installed.

    Dan

  6. #90
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Gary you are right, I did not read down to the end. I skipped the rest because I thought it was understood by my post it was a machine shop job all the way.

    Eric its too far to drive.

    Frankly I would either sue the guy or go to the BBB in that town or state and file a complaint or both. There is No Reason why he can't refund you in full or ship you a new machine. Its a bunch of BS what he shipped you and bad or crappy work does not have an expiration date!
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router

  7. #91
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    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    Eric you have the same thing going on I did with the steel gantry, holes not tapped right and possibly warped from the end caps like mine was. You should try to get a hold of Nate again and see if he will send you a aluminum piece. Its a pain swapping the parts over but it almost completely eliminates the binding. I was just left with still needing to loosen up the bolts that attach to the bearing blocks as I said before, they are the stainless ones in your pictures. I still need to shim out my linear rails to get them flatter and then shim in between the bearing blocks and the aluminum plate that the gantry attaches to. I understand that its frustrating and a bunch of work you shouldn't have to do, but I'm pretty confident that once its done you will have a good performing machine. If he wont send you out the extrusion you can order a piece cut to length for if I remember correctly $150-180 its going to be way cheaper than buying a whole new machine and trying to sell that one. Maybe take a little break from it and try to contact Nate again or look into getting a price on the aluminum extrusion, another option would be to talk to a local machine shop draw up the gantry in a cad software with the proper hole placement as well as where the linear rails and gear rack mount along and get a quote on getting a piece of 3"x6"x.375" steel tube machined with all the mounting surfaces machined flat with a step down to locate the rails and rack. I'm sure it will be much more expensive though than the aluminum extrusion would be, I'm still tempted to do the same thing since it would be nice to have a steel gantry it would also be a good time to have a better gusset installed.

    Dan

    The 3060 (3" x 6") extrusion costs $2.95/inch + a $2.90 cut fee + shipping + sales tax. So, if your gantry is 62" (I'm guessing here), the cost will be $182.90 + $2.90 cut fee + about $50 shipping + sales tax in your area in Raleigh. So, Dan's estimate is a little short of the actual cost. You're looking at closer to $235 + sales tax.

    You might go to the 80/20 website (8020.net) and look around. There is an online (searchable) catalog on the site. You can also go to the Ebay 80/20 Garage Sale and look around. Here's a link to it: 8020 Inc Garage Sale | eBay Stores. The garage sale is good for some things, but it is iffy whether you will find the exact length you might want for an extrusion. For what you need, it might be better to order directly off the 8020.net site. FWIW, they get orders out pretty fast and pack stuff well (thick cardboard with stapled on 2 by lumber end caps).

    If you decide to go that route, you will still need to figure out what you want for bracing, You can get by with the 1" X 2" angle braces and 3" aluminum angle, but they can make it tough to square the gantry to your Y axis. I found that out with my first machine. Not much wiggle room. You could go with something like I designed (see my build thread), which gives you easy and more than adequate adjustability. Unfortunately, the gantry is only part of the fix. You would still have to decide what to do about about remounting the Y axis linear rails.

    SUGGESTION: Figure out how you would like to fix the machine and then cost it out. That may help you decide whether to rehab it or scrap it. I agree with Dan about recontacting Nate about getting an extrusion to replace the steel gantry. Nothing to lose by trying. While Nate may be unwilling to take the machine back, bearing a part of the cost to make the machine right might be worth it to him in terms of trying to rehabilitate his reputation. Looking at the situation in practical terms, price a machine you might consider buying - like one from Avid CNC. If you are writing off the expenditure on the Saturn 2 to zero, then the Saturn 2 is a "sunk cost" and no longer relevant. So, you have the cost of a replacement CNC to use for rehab of the Saturn. There is always the issue of throwing good money after bad, and that should not be ignored. Nevertheless, this approach gives you a quantitative and objective way of evaluating the situation. I know from experience how tough it can be, and it's easy to make dispassionate suggestions from where I sit on the left coast in Washington. Still, with information coming in from all directions, it's a way of stepping back and looking at things a little differently. Just my 2 cents.

    Gary

  8. #92

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    616

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Gary he has a 2x4 machine so the gantry is 44.5". I do agree with what you said about weighing out the cost and it's a roll of the dice in my opinion if it's going to be worth fixing it vs buying a new one. It would be nice if he could at least get a piece of extrusion from Finline if he decides to go the rehab route like I did. It would be even nicer if Finline decided to take the machine back for a partial or full l refund or even a replacement machine if that was the route he decided to take but I wouldn't hold my breath.

    It's just a bad deal all the way around since the machines come with a 60 day warranty but in my case I didn't have all the parts to complete the machine until after the 60 days were up. I already had so much money beyond the cost from Finline invested that returning it was never a option. Honestly now that mine is close to dialed I'm pretty happy with the machine, only time aka "hours" on the machine will tell. However if I had to do it over again and knew then what I know now. I would have bought a well constructed import machine and just swapped out the controller for a Acorn and down the road upgrade to some AC servos and would have had a real industrial router, but hey even at my age I'm still learning the hard way.

  9. #93
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    Sep 2005
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    1638

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    Gary is there any chance he can reuse the controls and motors like your doing and do it on a Avid machine?
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router

  10. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Gary is there any chance he can reuse the controls and motors like your doing and do it on a Avid machine?
    I did not buy a plug and play. I am using an Arduino based controller feeding Automation Technologies 542(I think) drivers to nema23 steppers.

  11. #95

    Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!

    I would be interest as well - but not without looking at the machine (or what's left of it).

  12. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ntl View Post
    Eric you have the same thing going on I did with the steel gantry, holes not tapped right and possibly warped from the end caps like mine was. You should try to get a hold of Nate again and see if he will send you a aluminum piece. Its a pain swapping the parts over but it almost completely eliminates the binding. I was just left with still needing to loosen up the bolts that attach to the bearing blocks as I said before, they are the stainless ones in your pictures. I still need to shim out my linear rails to get them flatter and then shim in between the bearing blocks and the aluminum plate that the gantry attaches to. I understand that its frustrating and a bunch of work you shouldn't have to do, but I'm pretty confident that once its done you will have a good performing machine. If he wont send you out the extrusion you can order a piece cut to length for if I remember correctly $150-180 its going to be way cheaper than buying a whole new machine and trying to sell that one. Maybe take a little break from it and try to contact Nate again or look into getting a price on the aluminum extrusion, another option would be to talk to a local machine shop draw up the gantry in a cad software with the proper hole placement as well as where the linear rails and gear rack mount along and get a quote on getting a piece of 3"x6"x.375" steel tube machined with all the mounting surfaces machined flat with a step down to locate the rails and rack. I'm sure it will be much more expensive though than the aluminum extrusion would be, I'm still tempted to do the same thing since it would be nice to have a steel gantry it would also be a good time to have a better gusset installed.

    Dan
    Hey Dan and others,
    Swapping the parts would not be super hard to an extrusion. I suppose I worry about the "good money after bad". I will contact Nate and see if he will send me an extrusion. I'm sure he will continue to ignore me. I really appreciate all the input. The extrusion solves alot of my reservations about trying to fix the machine. I know you mentioned it before but for some reason I was thinking the extrusion was going to be $500-$600. I can justify $200. On the frame rail issue...I think I might have a solution that will be cheap and effective. I am thinking I can drill out the mounting holes and then drill out holes on the bottom side of the frame rails. I realize there are going to be the areas under the frame risers that I won't be able to do this, but if I get really frisky in the future I could use a hole saw to help me access to inside the frame risers. The idea being not to tap the bottom of the rail but to just use a long bolt and then just washer and nut on the bottom. The holes would be over sized to give me adjustment. It's not a perfect solution I realize, but simple and helps me get me going in the right direction within the means I have in my little shop. All the suggestion have been awesome and honestly have helped me visualize different solutions in my head. Please let me know if you guys think this is just a horrible idea.

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