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IndustryArena Forum > WoodWorking Machines > DIY CNC Router Table Machines > GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design
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  1. #241
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by davida1234 View Post
    Well, then go ahead and try the gussets, maybe it is enough.

    We'll see. I'm hoping the gussets will work, but I'm not holding my breath. The basic design is proven to work - at least using steel for a steel machine. Whether, or to what extent, it translates to my machine is an open question. I'm going to see if I can cut the gussets on the CNC. I could drill the holes on my mill, but I would still have to saw the basic shape. I only have a small bandsaw, so I'd have to do it with my table saw and miter slider equipped with non-ferrous blades. I sometimes do it, but try to avoid it. The CNC would sure be faster, but then, you already know that.


    Any more thoughts about addressing the 5 IPM resonance issue on the Y axis? When I get a more time, I may remove the stepper drives and go through them again with everything removed. Otherwise, I don't know what more to do. Feels like taking two steps forward and one step back.

    Gary

  2. #242
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Try reducing the current to maybe 6 amps or so on the drives, and see if that helps? You could always try a different drive, like a Leadshine EM806 and see if it's smoother? I've heard that they are. Testing an Leadshine AM882 on a bench, I get super smooth rotation at even really slow speeds.
    If you pull the motor, and run it on a table, does it still have resonance at the same speed?

    I don't think it's a big deal, as it's unlikely you'll actually ever cut anything at 5ipm. But you'll have to see if it affects anything.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  3. #243
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Gary I think cutting your plates on the machine is an excellent way to go and you can also drill. When my machine was almost done and before I had the spoil board I had a job come that had to be done. I just C Clamped a piece of MDF to the table cross braces and got it done.

    In fact you could use a hunk of scrap plywood to do a prototype before your metal arrives.

    My gussets, the triangle shape helps add strength to the corner as well as holding the metal together. Mine is 8x5 inches on the sides and about 6 inches from the corner to the center of the triangle.

    Like Gerry I don't think your stepper motor noise is a deal breaker.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  4. #244
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    Otherwise, I don't know what more to do.
    A far fetched idea, probably won't help but ...... Loosen the stepper on one drive and skip the belt 7 tooth and reassemble.

  5. #245
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    it's unlikely you'll actually ever cut anything at 5ipm
    Every time you cut a circle, one axis slows down from full feed to zero and goes back up. Passes over 5 ipm four times for a full circle.

  6. #246
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Yeah, but it's very brief, and it's accelerating and decelerating past 5ipm, not staying at 5ipm.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  7. #247
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by davida1234 View Post
    A far fetched idea, probably won't help but ...... Loosen the stepper on one drive and skip the belt 7 tooth and reassemble.
    Everytime the machine Homes and its re-zeroed you will need to do that all over. He has Y and a Slave like mine.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  8. #248
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Try reducing the current to maybe 6 amps or so on the drives, and see if that helps? You could always try a different drive, like a Leadshine EM806 and see if it's smoother? I've heard that they are. Testing an Leadshine AM882 on a bench, I get super smooth rotation at even really slow speeds.
    If you pull the motor, and run it on a table, does it still have resonance at the same speed?

    I don't think it's a big deal, as it's unlikely you'll actually ever cut anything at 5ipm. But you'll have to see if it affects anything.

    Great ideas, Gerry. Thank you.

    As you might guess, it's hard to get excited about the prospect of spending about $300 (with shipping & tax) for 2 new drives, or double that, if I were to replace all 4. Nevertheless, I have to admit I like the specs and descriptions on the EM806s. It's out there as a viable option, and one I would exercise, but pretty much as a last resort. It's good to hear you have some experience with them. Unfortunately, to use them means a complete remake of my control box, or having to add an auxiliary box.

    I took an unconventional approach when building my control box. Avid CNC uses the removable plate on their boxes to mount the connectors. I removed mine, rotate the box so the opening was on top, and in place of the plate, I installed a huge heat sink with the fins open to ambient air. I screwed the Stepper drives to the underside of the heat sink. It's a design I used when I built an electric brewery. It works great.

    My first step will be to try the current set resistors to reduce current and test. If the problem persists I'll pull the motors and see that makes a difference. If it doesn't, I can rule out other mechanical causes, like the R&P drive. On the flip side, if the stepper is fine on the bench, the problem probably resides in the drive line, like in the stepper drives.

    As you observe, Gerry, this may not turn out to be a big deal. Only doing actual cutting will tell me one way or the other. Still, it makes sense to me to try the the low cost/cost free stuff before pulling the trigger on larger purchases.



    Quote Originally Posted by davida1234 View Post
    A far fetched idea, probably won't help but ...... Loosen the stepper on one drive and skip the belt 7 tooth and reassemble.

    Thank you, David. Yup, sounds far fetched, but I'm not taking anything for granted. I don't know what I don't know. If I get to the point of removing steppers, I'll be sure to give it a try.

    Thanks again, guys.

    Gary.

  9. #249
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Gary I think cutting your plates on the machine is an excellent way to go and you can also drill. When my machine was almost done and before I had the spoil board I had a job come that had to be done. I just C Clamped a piece of MDF to the table cross braces and got it done.

    In fact you could use a hunk of scrap plywood to do a prototype before your metal arrives.

    My gussets, the triangle shape helps add strength to the corner as well as holding the metal together. Mine is 8x5 inches on the sides and about 6 inches from the corner to the center of the triangle.

    Like Gerry I don't think your stepper motor noise is a deal breaker.

    Thank you, Bill. Yeah, I did similar on my first machine before I got the spoilboard on. Worked okay, but far less convenient than with the spoilboard. I plan to leave the temporary side braces in place for whatever additional support they provide. Can't hurt.

    Agree about the prototyping in scrap ply. Work out any kinks before going with the expensive stuff. It will have to wait until Monday, though. I'm at the beach with my wife this weekend. We have a place out here. We come most every weekend the year around. The weather at the Washington coast is pretty moderate. Stays cool in the summer (it's 67 degrees right now). In the winter, the highs are in upper 40s to low 50s. Maybe one minor show per season that melts off in one or two day. Rains a lot in the winter, though.

    Thanks for the dimensions on your gussets. I make them slightly smaller in my design, but have enough material to make them 5" x 8". An easy modification. I draw one, and use "array" to copy as many as I need and where I want them. The piece of stock I ordered was large enough to accommodate the 1/2" increase in length and width.

    We'll see about the resonance issue. I hope it turns out to be a tempest in a teapot.

    Gary

  10. #250
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Hey Gary have a great time at the beach and forget this stuff for a while. Its been way to hot and just now I made a run to Culver's for take out supper. Left home looked back and huge storm clouds to the NW. Got out the Iphone, nope weather is fine no warnings. Needless to say on the way home I was hit with 70 mph winds, heavy rain and some hail. Got home streets flooded, trees down and gee now the weather shows heavy Thunderstorms.... this over a 20-30 minute time frame, 1.4 inches of rain and lucky no hail damage to my truck that I can see anyway.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  11. #251
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Hi Gary - A brace is a secondary structure, it preserves the shape of the primary structure and therefore can be quite lightweight. Before you commit to doing the modification simply G clamp whatever you have handy across the legs and see if it works. If it works then do it more formally if it does not work then you can look elsewhere for a solution. The test could use a sheet of material or a beam section same effect. Peter

  12. #252
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi Gary - A brace is a secondary structure, it preserves the shape of the primary structure and therefore can be quite lightweight. Before you commit to doing the modification simply G clamp whatever you have handy across the legs and see if it works. If it works then do it more formally if it does not work then you can look elsewhere for a solution. The test could use a sheet of material or a beam section same effect. Peter

    Thank you, Peter. See Post #231. There are photos. Been there, done that, except I bolted some aluminum angle to the legs with two bolts per end. Then, I bolted the angle to the underside of a 1.5" X 3" 8020 extrusion with another two bolts per end. The arrangement I used did what I wanted it to. That's why I moved on to gussets. I figure a much more rigid connection would be no worse than my test, but almost certainly better.

    I've never heard what I know as C clamps referred to as G clamps. A quick search revealed they are the same thing. I was concerned that using a single clamp at each end might create pivot points and not give a true picture. I could have used 2 clamps at each end, but that gets kind of crowded. I was also concerned about damaging the extrusions. Too loose, and you get movement. Too tight, which is easy to do with C or G clamps. The figure the way I did it avoided any risk and provided a rigid connection. It was also pretty easy, since the angle located the extrusion where I wanted it, and supported it as well. Easier than trying to position a 68" long piece of extrusion while juggling a bunch of clamps - at least for me.

    Too bad the 4 x 144" .080" sheets of aluminum I have squirreled are too thin for the task. I've used it for various things over the years, but it thinness has been a factor limiting its utility. I cut some square tubing into quarters, forming 4 angle pieces. They were under 1/8" thick. I cut some of my .080 stuff into strips and fastened it to the homemade angle. I used it for trays for my cable chains. Worked great. With the angle backing a long edge, it proved plenty stiff for cable chains full of cable and water lines for my spindle. Not much work, and cheaper than the stamped steel ones. Also, I made it to the length I needed and wasn't bound by stock size.

    Thank again for checking in Peter. More to follow . . . .

    Gary

  13. #253
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Hey Gary have a great time at the beach and forget this stuff for a while. Its been way to hot and just now I made a run to Culver's for take out supper. Left home looked back and huge storm clouds to the NW. Got out the Iphone, nope weather is fine no warnings. Needless to say on the way home I was hit with 70 mph winds, heavy rain and some hail. Got home streets flooded, trees down and gee now the weather shows heavy Thunderstorms.... this over a 20-30 minute time frame, 1.4 inches of rain and lucky no hail damage to my truck that I can see anyway.

    You have my condolences, Bill. I grew up in Indiana and recall all too well both heat and relative humidity in the 90s. I also lived in Florida for a few years Heat and humidity were bad there too. Our main house is just outside Gig Harbor. The climate is much more temperate. It rains a lot in the winter, but our summers are glorious.

    Gary

  14. #254
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Here's a quick update. I can't believe it, but I forgot I had a considerable amount of 1/8" 6061 tread plate. I bought it years ago at Boeing Surplus in Seattle for some projects I had in mind. I later decided against the projects, and put it against a garage wall behind 3 sheets of 48 x 144" .080" aluminum. While doing some cleaning and arranging, I stumbled on it. Lucky me, Now I have the material I wanted tor more substantial bracing without having to drop significant bucks to buy it. So, subject to the input I may get, it looks like another direction change in machine bracing.



    Here is a model of the gusset plate I'm thinking of cutting out of the tread plate. The vertical and horizontal dimensions are 12" each side. The bolt hole spacing is designed to give good attachment, while cutting down on the number of $1 each fasteners. Each fastener is 1.5" OC, although in a staggered pattern.

    There is one minor complication - the raised tread pattern. It won't due to have bolt/screw head resting on the tread sections. About the only way I can think of to take care of it is to locally (at each screw) is to mill off the tread pattern. Not necessarily a big deal, but just an extra step. In the alternative I suppose I could the tread pattern inward. I'm planning on using my CNC to cut out the parts.

    I should also mention that I plan to make 8 pieces, 2 for each side of the machine. Although I don't notice any side-to-side movement/wiggle, it can't hurt to brace all 4 sides.

    FWIW, I have enough tread plate to cut larger gussets. The largest size that will reasonably fit is 24" x 24" on a side. Unfortunately, that is so large as to virtually cut off all access to the area under the spoilboard. Not a great option for me. Due to space constraints, I keep my Main and VFD control boxes under the machine. Even 18" x 18" would limit access, and in addition, would mean putting out bucks for additional $1 each fasteners. As it is, I have just enough fasteners on hand for 12" x 12" plates.

    THE QUESTIONS:

    Do you believe 12" x 12" x 1/8" gussets will likely provide sufficient additional rigidity?

    Do you believe that there is sufficient marginal gain in rigidity using 15" x 15" or 18" x 18" or 24" x 24" gussets to make it worthwhile to use one of the larger sizes? (Note: the sizes listed are all multiples of 1.5", which is in keeping with the spacing used on Series 15 extrusions). This question recognizes there may be, and probably is, a point of diminishing returns.

    Thank you in advance for your assistance.

    Gary

  15. #255
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Another update. I sorted through an assortment of 1/2 watt resistors I had on hand. I found 3 the correct size to current set my Geckos to about 6 amps. I also looked for some to set to 6.5 amps, but didn't have any. I'll try the resistors for 6 amps and see what happens.

    The above leads me to a question, based upon the following current set information from the Gecko literature:

    a. 1A – 7.8K
    b. 1.5A – 12.8K
    c. 2A – 18.8K
    d. 2.5A – 26.1K
    e. 3A – 35.25K
    f. 3.5A – 47K
    g. 4A – 62.67K
    h. 4.5A – 84.6K
    i. 5A – 117.5K
    j. 5.5A – 172.33K
    k. 6A – 282K
    l. 6.5A – 611K
    m. 7A – OPEN

    I don't understand why decreasing the size of the resistor would correspond to reducing the output current. I'm not well versed in this stuff, but Ohm's Law says that there is an inverse relationship between resistance and current, given that the voltage remains unchanged. So, if resistance goes up, I would expect the current to go down. Obviously, not the case with the Gecko 203V. Equally obvious, there is more to it than Ohm's Law at play. Otherwise, we wouldn't be talking about resistors in the thousands of ohms. I'm good at following instructions, but like to know at least a little about why - assuming the explanation isn't way over my head and I still can't understand it. Can anyone provide a very dumbed down explanation?

    (Note: there is a huge jump form 6 amps to 6.5 amps, compared to the differences between the other .5 amp steps. I'm imagine is has to do with the way some formula works, but certainly don't know).

    Thank you,

    Gary

  16. #256
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Hi Gary - Intuitively the bigger the better. But you are walking down too solutions 1) The longer they are the closer they are becoming to a full cross brace. Also you do not need the bolts or plate in the corner itself. See red outline attached. This will function as well as the drawn brace and save a few bolts. 2) to support the corner they only need to be quite small like the bit remaining from the red outline. So two philosophies a) support the corner if its construction needs support b) create as large a triangle as practical. Peter

  17. #257
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    I'm not going to address the plate design, you have pictures of mine which work and its also has to do with the surface area under the plate holding, not just the bolts..... but for the holes in the diamond plate, I have a whole set of these counter bores and perhaps you do also, drill 5/16 or whatever size your using and then chuck up this and clear the area for the allen bolt head.

    https://www.amazon.com/Yankee-Fracti...%2C156&sr=8-11
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  18. #258
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi Gary - Intuitively the bigger the better. But you are walking down too solutions 1) The longer they are the closer they are becoming to a full cross brace. Also you do not need the bolts or plate in the corner itself. See red outline attached. This will function as well as the drawn brace and save a few bolts. 2) to support the corner they only need to be quite small like the bit remaining from the red outline. So two philosophies a) support the corner if its construction needs support b) create as large a triangle as practical. Peter
    Thank you, Peter.

    I believe my more pressing need in terms of corner support is at the right and left sides. As noted previously, I will be using a 1.5" X 3" extrusion on the sides oriented horizontally (vs mounting at an angle). The 3" face will be oriented vertically, as depicted in an earlier picture. I will use angle to mount the the ends of the horizontal brace to the legs, and will use the gusset to tie tie the legs and brace on the faces. Because the horizontal brace has only one slot on the top and bottom faces. the angle will only use one bolt through the angle to fix the brace ends to the legs. Not the most secure connection. So, my need is to employ both solutions you described.

    My front and back have a 3" x 3" crossbeam attached in four places at each end. It uses a special milled in 80/20 fastener that locks the extrusions together in a way that aluminum angle never could. I believe that, coupled with the corner bracing I used on each side at all 4 upper corners, explains why I not seeing much, if any, side-to-side movement. The only additional bracing needed in the front or back, if any, would be angular. I'm not in the least worried about the corner connection.

    The two solutions you identify can converge into one, depending upon the size of the gusset. I believe that would be the case, with one that's 24" x 24". You get the benefit of tying the corner together and providing angular support. As they say, 'killing two birds with one stone.'

    Still, l left with an open question. While bigger is better, how big is big enough? At what size do I reach the point of diminishing returns?

    One last thing. While I have a supply of tread plate, I may get only one shot at this. I'm not certain, but I'm not sure I have enough stock to make up a new, larger set of gussets.

    Gary

  19. #259
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I'm not going to address the plate design, you have pictures of mine which work and its also has to do with the surface area under the plate holding, not just the bolts..... but for the holes in the diamond plate, I have a whole set of these counter bores and perhaps you do also, drill 5/16 or whatever size your using and then chuck up this and clear the area for the allen bolt head.

    https://www.amazon.com/Yankee-Fracti...%2C156&sr=8-11

    Thanks, Bill. I too have a set of counterbores, but they won't work with the hardware I'm using. I am not using socket head cap screws. I'll be using what 80/20 call a drop-in t-stud. The stud drops in the slot in the extrusion. You put a nut on the end, and as you tighten down the nut, the tee part of the stud rotates 90 degrees. There are stops on the stud that prevent it from rotating more then 90 degree, and there is a mark on the end, so you get a visual that the stud has rotated. They work very well. They would need to need to be large enough to cut an area sufficient to accommodate a nut and washer. A counterbores I have are sized to accommodate a socket head cap screw. Also, the shank size is odd. Just a bit larger than 9mm. So, I'd to stretch a 9mm collect, if I had one - I don't. I've rejected the idea of using my mill, because of the size of the gussets. I couldn't use a vise. I'd have to rig up something custom, and would have to deal with multiple set ups on a mill designed for pieces of this size.

    No need to hold back on the plate design. My going in another direction is not a criticism of the plate design on your machine. I am sure it works very well for your machine. which is much heavier than mine,. However the fact that your design works well for your machine does not imply that it will work well for mine. It may, but then again, it may not. I'm just working off the premise that bigger is probably better. I'd be back with a design like yours, but for the fact that I found the material do make up something more substantial. I just wish it was thicker material.

    i agree that surface area, and the friction it brings to the table, is important. That's why having the treads facing inside is probably not the best idea. I recognized it as an option, but acknowledge it not the best one. Besides, having the treads facing out adds a macho factor to the machine. This takes us back to the question of what to do about the treads.

    Since I plan to cut the plates on my CNC, I'm thinking that using a pocketing toolpath is probably the way to go. The plan is to use it to mill off the treads around where the nuts and washers will seat and stop at the main surface. I'm open to other ideas, though.

    Gary

  20. #260
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Update on Y-axis resonance. Good news/bad news.

    I installed the current set resistors on Y and slave to reduce the current from 7 amps to about 6 amps. I then reduced the homing speed to 5 IPM. The resonance is still there, but somewhat reduced. I can feel it throughout the frame. I used the wrench test I used earlier, i.e., the wrench placed on a crossmember parallel to the X axis.. It didn't jump around like it did before. That good. However, the resonance/vibration in the frame was sufficient to cause the wrench to slowly move toward the front of the crossmember, the direction the Y axis was moving. That's bad.

    What to do next? Should I reduce the current more? At what point, if any, to I risk damage to my 7A stepper? Or, at what point, if any, do I compromise performance too much (I assume that lowering current has a performance hit associated with it)?

    I'm thinking about changing out the R & P drive spindle (gears and shaft), although I'm naturally reluctant to drop $50 each on a maybe. They were fine on my old machine, right up to the point where I removed them. I could get them from Avid CNC, but I'm not enamoured with their use of oilite sleeve bearing. Fineline's have roller and needle bearings, which sounds like a better design and the prices is the same.. Of course, I'm a little gun shy when it comes to ordering from Fineline, given the issues with customers having difficulty getting parts, and the recent concern that Fineline may no longer be on business. Unfortunately, those who complain often don't tell us about their ultimate resolutions.

    I guess for now I'll move on to bracing and see what, if any, difference that makes.

    I'm wide open to suggestions.

    Gary

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