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IndustryArena Forum > WoodWorking Machines > DIY CNC Router Table Machines > GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design
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  1. #201
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    I stumbled on something to try to reduce vibration.
    When you say vibration, is it movement of the base parallel with a particular axis or resonance of structural elements when the machine runs or bending/twisting of elements?


    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    I found 2 pieces of 4" x 60" x 1/4" cold rolled steel. I'm thinking about bolting it to the outside faces of front and back legs.

    To work as a brace, 4" is very little height and should not help much. It shouldn't matter what the section is (strip, round or square) as that member would have only axial loads in it as a brace. For best result, you should bolt it diagonally from top of one leg to the bottom of the other to triangulate the base.


    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    Another question that occurred to me was what the effect of the spoilboard weight might have.

    It might help a bit but you wouldn't be fixing the problem which seems to be a too flexible base.


    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    You can see in the video how to avoid having to replace the spoilboard, or greatly extend its life. I never cut into it.

    What is wrong with spoiling a spoil board? It is a $30 piece of MDF meant to be spoiled and replaced as it wears down. Besides, wouldn't you have to cut into the spoil board anyway to separate a piece from stock?

  2. #202
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by davida1234 View Post
    When you say vibration, is it movement of the base parallel with a particular axis or resonance of structural elements when the machine runs or bending/twisting of elements?
    I don't believe I can give you answers with sufficient reliability. I am going to test it some more and pay way more attention to the fine details. Can I get back to you on this?



    Quote Originally Posted by davida1234 View Post


    To work as a brace, 4" is very little height and should not help much. It shouldn't matter what the section is (strip, round or square) as that member would have only axial loads in it as a brace. For best result, you should bolt it diagonally from top of one leg to the bottom of the other to triangulate the base.


    I'm not 100% that I'm following you. It sounds like you are suggesting something like a single part cut in an X shape that fastens to the tops and bottoms of each leg on a side. I also envision metal running from the top of leg A to the bottom of leg and from the top of leg B to the bottom of leg A, forming an X shape. In that configuration, you would need to have a fixing fastener where the two cross pieces intersect. It occurred to me that you might be considering a single diagonal, but wouldn't that leave one leg on each side without additional support. Is this what you had in mind?



    Quote Originally Posted by davida1234 View Post
    It might help a bit but you wouldn't be fixing the problem which seems to be a too flexible base.


    --(Refers to adding the spoilboard as a possible fix). I wouldn't argue against you on this. My base is much like Avid CNC's for the Pro line, except I used double sized, heavier weight extrusions, and used extrusions for angle bracing instead of their steel version. I wondered about the amount of leg left unsupported, but concluded if what Avid used worked okay, mine should work better. Bigger and heavier is usually better (but not a substitute for good design). It's looking like a bad conclusion on my part.




    Quote Originally Posted by davida1234 View Post
    What is wrong with spoiling a spoil board? It is a $30 piece of MDF meant to be spoiled and replaced as it wears down. Besides, wouldn't you have to cut into the spoil board anyway to separate a piece from stock?

    Not a thing wrong with spoiling your spoilboard. Pretty much everyone does it. It's just that it takes virtually no additional effort for me to keep it pristine. It's certainly not about the money. In the scheme of things, the MDF cost is nothing. However, time and personal preference is another matter. I glue my MDF to the base layers. If I want to replace it, I have to glue a large piece back on and then cut the slots for the t-track, or I have to cut several strips and glue them on individually. It's just one of the things I prefer avoiding, if I reasonably can. And in this case, I reasonably can.

    Nope. I don't cut into my spoilboard when making profile cuts (cutting out a piece). I zero my Z axis to the spoilboard surface. Then, I move Z up the nominal thickness of the material I'm cutting (e.g., 3/4" for 3/4" plywood, even though the plywood is thinner than 3/4"). Then I reset work zero to 3/4" from the bed surface. When I run the profile cut, it cuts though the material, but doesn't touch the spoilboard (well, it has to touch it, but does not cut into it). When you see it happen, it's almost like a miracle. Every time I take a piece off and look at the spoilboard, I have have to touch the spoilboard to assure myself that my eyes aren't deceiving me. Works every time, though. I use a touch plate. What is critical is setting the offset exactly. If set properly, the endmill cuts all the way through the material, but does not cut into the spoilboard. It only takes a few seconds more time to do it this way. The extra step involves moving Z up by the nominal thickness of the material, and hitting the axis zero button. That's it.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not the least bit critical of folks choosing to spoil their spoilboards. I just pass on a technique I find interesting, and for me, useful. Folks are free to use it or not. I have strong feeling about a lot of things. This isn't one of them.


    Thanks again, David,

    Gary



  3. #203
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    I did not glue my two pieces together so I can just remove the screws and replace as needed. I try not to cut into the MDF so I use a spacer board (1/4 inch hard board) under the work in most cases, otherwise its way to time consuming to get within .010 inch to keep the spoil board pristine. Needless to say I zero off the surface.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  4. #204
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    I'm not 100% that I'm following you. It sounds like you are suggesting something like a single part cut in an X shape that fastens to the tops and bottoms of each leg on a side. I also envision metal running from the top of leg A to the bottom of leg and from the top of leg B to the bottom of leg A, forming an X shape. In that configuration, you would need to have a fixing fastener where the two cross pieces intersect. It occurred to me that you might be considering a single diagonal, but wouldn't that leave one leg on each side without additional support. Is this what you had in mind?
    This is very simplified and theoretical but here is as I see the situation:

    Machine legs able to carry vertical loads (weight) but not horizontal:
    Attachment 424032

    My understanding was that you wanted to attach the steel as shown.
    You have only two steel strips and didn't want to spend additional money.
    This wouldn't help much as much, hence my comment:
    Attachment 424034

    This is my proposed arrangement.
    If one leg (on each side) is fixed, so is the other unsupported leg (theoretical):
    Attachment 424036

    This is obviously the best way but requires two additional strips.
    You do not have to bolt them together in the middle (theoretical):
    Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #205
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by davida1234 View Post
    This is very simplified and theoretical but here is as I see the situation:

    Machine legs able to carry vertical loads (weight) but not horizontal:


    My understanding was that you wanted to attach the steel as shown.
    You have only two steel strips and didn't want to spend additional money.
    This wouldn't help much as much, hence my comment:


    Your understanding is nearly correct. Rather than locating the red horizontal near the top of the legs, I was going to locate it near the bottom. Lower provides better support than higher, but it looks like not enough.




    Quote Originally Posted by davida1234 View Post
    This is very simplified and theoretical but here is as I see the situation:

    This is my proposed arrangement.
    If one leg (on each side) is fixed, so is the other unsupported leg (theoretical):


    This is obviously the best way but requires two additional strips.
    You do not have to bolt them together in the middle (theoretical):

    One angle brace is better than none; two are better. I agree that a bolt in the middle is not required,, but bolting in the middle provides much more rigidity. If I have to go with additional bracing, I'll probably drop the extra bucks and go with a cross and a fixed center.

    We can probably agree that for the braces, wider is better, thicker is better, and the more rigid the material the better. Too bad .080" aluminum is so thin. I have three or four 4'x12' sheets of it begging to be used.

    Do you have a recommendation regarding brace width and thickness? I prefer to use aluminum, because it's significantly easier to work with than steel. However,t nothing is off the table (pun intended) at this point.

    Thank you so much for adding drawings. Nothing like a good picture to answer both asked and unasked questions, and stimulate discussion.

    On your earlier question about the the nature of the movement and where it occurs, I am going to run some tests today and formulate descriptions that make sense. I took a shot at trying to answer your questions earlier, but found that I hadn't been nearly observant enough to provide much more than useless gibberish. It highlighted the need for focused testing.

    I have a snap shot camera with a movie mode. I'm going to put it a tripod and try to film some movements. I'm thinking the movements may be too subtle to capture, but it's worth a shot.

    More to follow . . . .

    Thanks again, David.

    Gary

  6. #206
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I did not glue my two pieces together so I can just remove the screws and replace as needed. I try not to cut into the MDF so I use a spacer board (1/4 inch hard board) under the work in most cases, otherwise its way to time consuming to get within .010 inch to keep the spoil board pristine. Needless to say I zero off the surface.
    I glue to avoid using fasteners. Just my thing. Folks do it both ways. Gluing is definitely more of a PIA, though.

    I think I left out some detail. I zero off the spoilboard only when making through profile cuts. That's when you may cut into the spoilboard. For most everything else, I zero off the top of the material.

    The key to this working is a properly calibrated touch plate. Once you have a touch plate offset calculated, you don't have to worry about getting to within .010" or any other amount. It's done right automatically time-after-time. Mach4 has a great touch routine, which makes it easy. My plate has a hole that aligns at the corner of the work piece, which makes establishing X,Y zero at a corner automatic. I use it all the time and love it.

    It's great that you have a technique that works for you, but please don't assume yours is better because it's quicker. I've done it both ways and can attest to one way being no quicker than the other. They take pretty much the same amount of time. Frankly, there is no way I would ever give up my touch plate. It's quicker than pretty much any alternative.

    For me, I don't like taking the extra time futzing with spacer boards. I've used them, but I find it much quicker and easier to just clamp directly to the spoilboard. I also use the blue tape and CA glue method to hold some parts. Works great when the situation warrants, but way more time consuming. Nothing like having a variety of tools in the old toolbox.

    Gary

  7. #207
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    But 1/4 x 4 inch thick flat steel is going to flex, not much but enough to transmit vibrations. The diagonal bracing must be either angle or square tubing to be rigid enough. Not an engineer, I am just an Iowa farm kid who has been building stuff for 65 years.

    My FLA base has triangle plates bolted to the legs and base, all sides. The bottom is totally braced with 1.5 inch square tubing on all 4 sides.

    Attachment 424040

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  8. #208
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Gary, I just slide a piece of 1/4 inch hardboard, masonite whatever under my work to cut out takes about 3 seconds, and clamp both to the table with just one of way to many T slot clamps I own. Its not better, just faster.

    My system is set up to use a touch probe for digitizing, for my 3D modeling, not a zero plate.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  9. #209
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post

    My system is set up to use a touch probe for digitizing, for my 3D modeling, not a zero plate.
    Bill, you are a handy guy. Why don't you make a touch plate? If you try it, I'll bet you will like it. You could probably make a pretty respectable one similar to Bill Griggs' Makers Guide on your CNC. They also sell some on EBay. Here's an example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-Corner-...ss!98355!US!-1

    Gary

  10. #210
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    But 1/4 x 4 inch thick flat steel is going to flex, not much but enough to transmit vibrations. The diagonal bracing must be either angle or square tubing to be rigid enough. Not an engineer, I am just an Iowa farm kid who has been building stuff for 65 years.

    My FLA base has triangle plates bolted to the legs and base, all sides. The bottom is totally braced with 1.5 inch square tubing on all 4 sides.




    Thanks, Bill. I'm familiar. I ordered the leg kit with the Saturn 2 I sent back and even partially assembled it. Ugh! Many of the holes in the gusset plate and braces didn't line up. Also, many of the threaded hole were tapped at a severe angle. It was pretty badly manufactured. I could grind out the holes to get things to line up, but that shouldn't have been necessary. Nothing to be done about the bad tapping. Clearly, the holes were hand tapped without any sort of guide, and no attention to detail. When QC went to the devil, it bled over into the leg kit. No excuse for it.

    I just finished my testing and will be reporting out on it shortly. Suffice it to say, it looks like a bracing issue. Mechanical resonance could be part of it, but I have never diagnosed it before, nor have I knowingly seen it, except in some online videos. More to follow , , ,

    Gary

  11. #211
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Notice the diagonal bracing on the CNCRP stand are not aluminum but welded steel construction and on the right side where the control boxes are located they have doubled that bracing. That is why
    they do not have issues. I question how tight can you make the bolted extrusion to extrusion connections. If side plates would be an option to also add strength.
    On my FLA leg base kit, I had no issues other than installing those 100 or so M6 5/16 bolts lucky for me I had a electric impact wrench with the proper driver bit.
    Gary you seem to have all the problems?

    As you can see my base went together without any issues and I am using nearly every day so they must have designed it right?

    Added: For yours it might be easier and faster in the long run just to order the diagonal 8 pc gusset kit with the roll in nuts and duplicate the CNCRP design, but I would also add
    that longer lower brace on the left side to match the one on the right. But this is your project.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	LegKit-4848-16_4.jpg 
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ID:	424044
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  12. #212
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Notice the diagonal bracing on the CNCRP stand are not aluminum but welded steel construction and on the right side where the control boxes are located they have doubled that bracing. That is why
    they do not have issues. I question how tight can you make the bolted extrusion to extrusion connections. If side plates would be an option to also add strength.
    On my FLA leg base kit, I had no issues other than installing those 100 or so M6 5/16 bolts lucky for me I had a impact wrench with the proper driver bit.
    Gary you seem to have the problems? As you can see my base went together without any issues and I am using nearly every day so they must have designed it right?


    Bill, take another look at the picture. They didn't double the braces on the control box side. Rather, they just moved them down below the below the bar. Just 2 braces per side. You might look at the 4 x 4 assembly instructions. It's under Base Assembly, Section 1.1. Just one pair per side, on all 4 sides - 8 total. Avid calls them "Leg Gussets."

    My braces are aluminum. With 80/20's drop lock feature, things hold very tightly. If you are not familiar with the drop lock, either side of the slot is angled in just a little. When you tighten a fastener, the angled in part flattens out, but the adjacent areas don't. It does a great job of locking things together. I can see no evidence of my angles moving. There is an option, though. I could drill through holes in the slots and bolt all the way through. I have a jig from 80/20 with a hardened guide for drilling K -sized holes. 80/20 doesn't any longer explain its use, but they used to. They never pushed it, because it gets around buying some of the expensive fasteners that make them a healthy profit. Anyway, I have some options.

    I just found 3 pieces of 1.5 x 3" (1530) extrusion long enough to do something like the Saturn 2 base. I have a couple more pieces of 1530, but I have them milled to length for a cutting table I plan to build. I could use them, if I go with some sort of X brace arrangement, but I'd rather not.

    Right now, I'm reviewing some video I shot and deciding whether some of it tells a tale, or don't bring anything useful to the party. Stay tuned. More to follow . . . .

    Gary

  13. #213
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Gary yes there are only one set of diagonal bracing on the right side but that rail is adding strength. I would add the same rail on yours to the left side, and I think you may already have one
    on the right side and ends? That along with your existing diagonal bracing should be enough.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  14. #214
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Gary yes there are only one set of diagonal bracing on the right side but that rail is adding strength. I would add the same rail on yours to the left side, and I think you may already have one
    on the right side and ends? That along with your existing diagonal bracing should be enough.
    No rails on either side, Bill. Just on the ends. And yes, I agree, the straight brace on the right side of Avid's adds stability. I know this, because my X side is a lot shorter than the Y side, and it's the Y side that's the far bigger problem. I can add one 1530 on each side, but I need to find a different fastening method. Probably something like the Saturn 2 gussets, if I go that way. I may even add gussets on the X side ends. Still thinking through it.

    Gary

  15. #215
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by davida1234 View Post
    When you say vibration, is it movement of the base parallel with a particular axis or resonance of structural elements when the machine runs or bending/twisting of elements?

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    I don't believe I can give you answers with sufficient reliability. I am going to test it some more and pay way more attention to the fine details. Can I get back to you on this?

    I spent some time testing this morning. I moved the gantry using steps on my pendant with .01 resolution. Then, I did a reference all home at 5 ipm. Finally, I ran the routine I used to drill holes for my squaring routine. I recorded some video. Some of the video doesn't bring anything to the party. I focused on the area of my left front bumper while doing a Ref All. I could see movement, but the camera couldn't. I placed a wrench on the front crossmembers while doing a Ref All. That video is very revealing. I also shot video when running my gantry squaring routine. It doesn't show enough to make it worthwhile posting it. I

    'm going to change my terminology just a bit. I've been referring to my observations as vibration. I guess vibration is a term that might mean different things to different people. I'll call it shaking, although shaking could also be seen as ambiguous. It's really pretty hard to find a word to describe it. Shaking probably comes closest, but with the caveat that it is a shaking you can see, but just barely. It's not so much as to cause the machine to walk across the floor. However, it is significant enough to transmit throughout the machine. Clear as mud?

    I have never knowingly observed mechanical resonance, except what I've seen in a few online videos. The videos I viewed were pretty extreme cases. I'll just admit that I don't know enough to make a judgement on resonance. I'm inclined to think resonance isn't the problem, but it's more of a sense than a conclusion. I certainly wouldn't rule it out. I'm guessing I'll have to try a fix and see what happens.

    Let me apologize in advance for the links to the video. I hoped to have the video itself in the thread, rather than a link to it. I really struggled to get it the way it is. I've never tried to post video before. It's clear I have a lot to learn, if I plan to do it in the future.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GB...gs88gJTNjC0fjB

    I shot this video while doing a Ref All at 5 ipm from a longer than usual distance. You can see the wrench moving around. It's oriented parallel to the X axis. The "shaking" is aligned with the Y axis, so the movement is consistent with the alignment of the shaking. IMO, it's pretty telling.


    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Zy...UGVeIWQhosavZQ

    This video of the same wrench was recorded while I was running the gantry squaring routine. Y velocity set at 300. Acceleration 50. X velocity = 600; acceleration - 50. Not nearly as telling as the other one.


    Observations:

    Very little to no "shaking" when running rapids and cutting speeds.

    I picked up some shaking when air cutting holes in the squaring routine, but not as severe as when Ref All at slow speed.

    "Shaking" most prevalent during quick start/stop movements, or very slow movements, like when doing a Ref All or moving in .01" steps (move .01, pause, move again, repeat).

    "Shaking is aligned along the Y axis, i.e., it move from front to back. You can just make out the movement direction visually. Little side-to-side movement, but maybe some. Little enough that it's hard to tell.

    When the machine shakes it's throughout the machine. It's not localized.

    I turned the wrench so it straddled to crossmembers (perpendicular to the orientation in the videos - front-to-back). It seemed considerably more stable in the front-to-back orientation. I expected it to move front to back, but it didn't. It just noisily vibrated pretty much in place.

    Conclusion:

    I'm inclined to believe, like David and Bill, that it is a lack of support issue. The top of the legs appear well supported in all directions. The bottoms not. The X orientation is longer than that the Y orientation. In terms of outside measurement, X is 74" vs Y at 60". Yet, Y moves and X doesn't (or very little by comparison). This leads me to believe that the lower braces on the legs (oriented with X axis) are playing a significant role in reducing movement. In contrast, the absence of lower supports aligned with the Y axis is causing the problem.

    The gold standard fix, and an expensive one, would be "X" braces on all 4 sides, with each rigidly connected at the middle. Next down the line is the same, but leaving out the center connections. I cannot rate the other fixes in any particular order, but they include a single diagonal brace on the sides, adding horizontal braces in the same plane as the ones on the ends. I could also add horizontal rails on the sides, and use side mounted gussets to fix them at each side and corner of the ends and sides (see photos of Saturn 2 base wmgeorge provided today in post #207). There are variations on the the themes. Most will take a fair amount of work fabricating and outlay of $$$. It's my bad. I under-engineered the base. Probably understandable, given that I have no engineering background. It's still a head-hanging moment, though.

    Okay, I'm not necessarily looking at the gold standard. I just want to do enough to get a fully stable base and eliminate any "shake." Maybe that requires a gold standard fix. I hope not.

    Recommendations/discussion?

    Gary

  16. #216
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    The first video appears to be resonance type vibrations from the steppers. I don't think bracing would make a difference there.

    The second video appears to be shaking from direction changes, or starting and stopping. More rigidity, and more mass would be the answer.

    I think simple MDF corner braces would make a noticeable difference.

    And use YouTube for your videos.
    Gerry

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  17. #217
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    The first video appears to be resonance type vibrations from the steppers. I don't think bracing would make a difference there.

    The second video appears to be shaking from direction changes, or starting and stopping. More rigidity, and more mass would be the answer.

    I think simple MDF corner braces would make a noticeable difference.

    And use YouTube for your videos.

    Thank you, Gerry. Good call on the second 2nd video. The shaking corresponded to start/stop and direction changes (cutting the round holes with a pocketing cut (vs. drilling).

    How would I overcome resonance from the steppers, if bracing isn't a solution. When it comes to resonance, I'm way out of my depth.

    Gary

  18. #218
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Gary, do you have some and I know you do 6 inch heavy duty cast C Clamps? Take some 2x4s and clamp on each side down low, where CNCRP has the Y axis brace(s) and try again. Just forget the video, is the movement less? Move 2x4s as needed, a little trial and error. Heck you could even do a diagonal. Since the CNCRP stand and machine design is been on the market forever, I would mimic what they have done. KISS and don't go into with any pre- conceived notions. You are brain storming or experimenting Tom Edison used to do a lot of that !
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  19. #219
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Yes, the first video looks like resonance or "chatter" or shaking as you call it.

    I think that looks more like of a drive line issue. Steppers, drivers or the rack drives could cause all of them. I would suggest to look into those elements.

  20. #220
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    Re: GME's New 80/20 CNC Build - My Design

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Gary, do you have some and I know you do 6 inch heavy duty cast C Clamps? Take some 2x4s and clamp on each side down low, where CNCRP has the Y axis brace(s) and try again. Just forget the video, is the movement less? Move 2x4s as needed, a little trial and error. Heck you could even do a diagonal. Since the CNCRP stand and machine design is been on the market forever, I would mimic what they have done. KISS and don't go into with any pre- conceived notions. You are brain storming or experimenting Tom Edison used to do a lot of that !

    Thanks, Bill. Good idea.

    Yup, I have a load of clamps. C-clamps, F-clamps, K (parallel)-clamps, spring clamps, band clamps, miter clamps, cam clamps, edge clamps, welding clamps - you name it. As every woodworker knows, you can never have too many. I guess I have another good use for some of them.

    I will try where CNCRP put the brace on the right Y side, but I believe the height was probably driven by the desire to have a place to mount the control boxes. I'm thinking putting it at the height of end braces (quite a bit lower) may yield better results. Also, I already have corner braces high up, so bracing down low may yield better results.

    More to follow . . . .

    Gary

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