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IndustryArena Forum > Machine Controllers Software and Solutions > Mach Software (ArtSoft software) > Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???
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  1. #1
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    Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Good morning all,

    I am having a very strange problem with Mach 3. My system has been working but I also have been working on it so I could have introduced something into the mix. All other behaviour of the machine is fine.

    This is all about spindle control, and again, this was working...

    Here is what happens:

    I turn on the spindle in Mach, the spindle starts for a brief moment, then Mach3 E-Stops.

    Here is what I have:

    Mach3 - ESS Smooth Stepper - C25 BOB -- Dual relay board -- PWM to Analog board -- Huanyang Chinese VFD

    This is what I have done to isolate the problem:

    • I removed the PWM board and replaced it with a POT, this leaves only two control wires between MACH and the VFD - DCM (Common) and FOR (spindle on-fwd).
    • Problem continues - as such, output triggers relay, Relay closes, PWM signal starts, MACH3 E-stops.
    • I removed the two wires for DCM and FOR at the relay (Thus the spindle can't start)
    • Problem gets 'better", the output triggers relay, Relay closes, PWM signal starts, MACH3 is happy.
    • I then connect the two wires (DCM and FOR) together (twisting wires together) and the spindle starts and runs fine - no E-Stop



    Phase 1 Summary:

    Mach3 can control the relay, the relay can operate fine with no problem.

    The spindle drive can operate fine by manually wiring together the wires for (DCM and FOR).

    Mach3 will E-Stop if the Relay is used as a switch to connect the DCM and FOR wires together.

    -----------------------------------------
    Further tests and attempts:

    • Reconnected the analog control circuit
    • Problem and behaviour was exactly the same as above


    -----------------------------------------

    • Also turned off the input for E-Stop (thinking there is a power surge or drop), problem persisted.



    -----------------------------------------

    • Being that the problem is around the relay and that there are two on the board, I tried both relays - same problem.



    It is so strange that:
    • the relay can actuate perfectly fine by Mach3 and never cause a problem
    • the VFD can be turned on/off by twisting the wires together and never cause a problem
    • if the relay is used to connect the two wires - Mach3 goes into E-Stop



    Anybody got any suggestions as to what is going on here?

    Unfortunately I am away on business for a couple of weeks and won't be able to test further until I return.

    Chris D

  2. #2
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    244

    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Sound like the VFD is introducing EMI into the ESS and causing it to fault. You could try to use ferrite beads on the DCM and FOR wires coming into the relay board, or better yet would be to use a optically isolated solid state relay in place of the mechanical one on the board. I suspect the noise is getting into the relay board and effecting the ESS. VFD's are very electrically noisy and the wiring needs to be done carefully to avoid issues.
    Everything in moderation, including moderation.

  3. #3
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Hi Eman5oh,

    Thanks for responding.

    I originally was thinking EWI, however, wouldn't me "twisting the wires together" create more noise? Also, can a solid state relay be used to switch a logic level (24 V) signal? I was always under the impression that solid state relays can only be used on AC (I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination!).

    Thanks again!

    Chris D

  4. #4
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris D View Post
    Good morning all,

    I am having a very strange problem with Mach 3. My system has been working but I also have been working on it so I could have introduced something into the mix. All other behaviour of the machine is fine.

    This is all about spindle control, and again, this was working...

    Here is what happens:

    I turn on the spindle in Mach, the spindle starts for a brief moment, then Mach3 E-Stops.

    Here is what I have:

    Mach3 - ESS Smooth Stepper - C25 BOB -- Dual relay board -- PWM to Analog board -- Huanyang Chinese VFD

    This is what I have done to isolate the problem:

    • I removed the PWM board and replaced it with a POT, this leaves only two control wires between MACH and the VFD - DCM (Common) and FOR (spindle on-fwd).
    • Problem continues - as such, output triggers relay, Relay closes, PWM signal starts, MACH3 E-stops.
    • I removed the two wires for DCM and FOR at the relay (Thus the spindle can't start)
    • Problem gets 'better", the output triggers relay, Relay closes, PWM signal starts, MACH3 is happy.
    • I then connect the two wires (DCM and FOR) together (twisting wires together) and the spindle starts and runs fine - no E-Stop



    Phase 1 Summary:

    Mach3 can control the relay, the relay can operate fine with no problem.

    The spindle drive can operate fine by manually wiring together the wires for (DCM and FOR).

    Mach3 will E-Stop if the Relay is used as a switch to connect the DCM and FOR wires together.

    -----------------------------------------
    Further tests and attempts:

    • Reconnected the analog control circuit
    • Problem and behaviour was exactly the same as above


    -----------------------------------------

    • Also turned off the input for E-Stop (thinking there is a power surge or drop), problem persisted.



    -----------------------------------------

    • Being that the problem is around the relay and that there are two on the board, I tried both relays - same problem.



    It is so strange that:
    • the relay can actuate perfectly fine by Mach3 and never cause a problem
    • the VFD can be turned on/off by twisting the wires together and never cause a problem
    • if the relay is used to connect the two wires - Mach3 goes into E-Stop



    Anybody got any suggestions as to what is going on here?

    Unfortunately I am away on business for a couple of weeks and won't be able to test further until I return.

    Chris D
    You have the relay in the wrong place the relay is just a switch FOR and DCM and should not have anything to do with PWM


    The PWM 0-10v is connected to ACM and VI for speed control
    Mactec54

  5. #5
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Quote Originally Posted by eman5oh View Post
    Sound like the VFD is introducing EMI into the ESS and causing it to fault. You could try to use ferrite beads on the DCM and FOR wires coming into the relay board, or better yet would be to use a optically isolated solid state relay in place of the mechanical one on the board. I suspect the noise is getting into the relay board and effecting the ESS. VFD's are very electrically noisy and the wiring needs to be done carefully to avoid issues.
    He has it wired wrong noise is not the problem unless the wiring shields and Grounding is faulty
    Mactec54

  6. #6
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris D View Post
    Hi Eman5oh,

    Thanks for responding.

    I originally was thinking EWI, however, wouldn't me "twisting the wires together" create more noise? Also, can a solid state relay be used to switch a logic level (24 V) signal? I was always under the impression that solid state relays can only be used on AC (I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination!).

    Thanks again!

    Chris D

    You have no logic that uses 24v for switching for this VFD ON/OFF control The make them for DC and AC just check the spec's some are only for AC use

    Yes no problem with using solid-state relays they are better than coil type relays
    Mactec54

  7. #7
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Mactec54,

    Thanks for chiming in, however, I think I have it wired correct. DCM and FOR are used to start / stop the spindle in forward correct ? DCM is common and FOR would be the signal input, these two are connected to the relay's contact side. There is nothing here related to PWM, I have even removed the PWM/Analog signal completely and replaced it with a POT for one of the tests.

    So, unless I am crazy, I am missing your point as to why it is wired wrong?

    Chris D

  8. #8
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris D View Post
    Mactec54,

    Thanks for chiming in, however, I think I have it wired correct. DCM and FOR are used to start / stop the spindle in forward correct ? DCM is common and FOR would be the signal input, these two are connected to the relay's contact side. There is nothing here related to PWM, I have even removed the PWM/Analog signal completely and replaced it with a POT for one of the tests.

    So, unless I am crazy, I am missing your point as to why it is wired wrong?

    Chris D
    Your first post described it different, there is no signal so if you have wired any signal to the output of the relay then it would be incorrect, there should be nothing but a switch between the For and DCM with no electrical or signal what's so ever on this connection

    The output of the relay are connect with FOR and DCM only

    Check the output of the relay to see if it is turning the output on/off get this working then connect it to the VFD Drive to FOR and DCM
    Mactec54

  9. #9
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Yup, that is what I have.

    Those are the only two wires that go between the VFD and the rest of my controller electronics (when I have the pot installed). Because of that, I cannot understand how switching that relay can cause an E-Stop condition. As mentioned before...

    With DCM and FOR connected to the contact side of the relay....

    Click spindle start
    Relay contacts close (I here click and see LED come on)
    I see the PWM signal start (indicated on the breakout board)
    Spindle might bump a rotation or two
    Mach goes into E-Stop



    With DCM and FOR NOT CONNECTED to the contact side of the relay....

    Click spindle start
    Relay contacts close (I here click and see LED come on)
    I see the PWM signal start (indicated on the breakout board)
    Mach is happy , no E-Stop

    To actually make the spindle run at this point, I can twist together the DCM and FOR wires and magically the spindle runs great, I can control the speed (pot or PWM - depending on connections), and no E-Stop at Mach.

    I just can't wrap my head around how having DCM and FOR connected to the Relay and having the relay make the contact can cause the E-Stop.

    Chris

  10. #10
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris D View Post
    Yup, that is what I have.

    Those are the only two wires that go between the VFD and the rest of my controller electronics (when I have the pot installed). Because of that, I cannot understand how switching that relay can cause an E-Stop condition. As mentioned before...

    With DCM and FOR connected to the contact side of the relay....

    Click spindle start
    Relay contacts close (I here click and see LED come on)
    I see the PWM signal start (indicated on the breakout board)
    Spindle might bump a rotation or two
    Mach goes into E-Stop



    With DCM and FOR NOT CONNECTED to the contact side of the relay....

    Click spindle start
    Relay contacts close (I here click and see LED come on)
    I see the PWM signal start (indicated on the breakout board)
    Mach is happy , no E-Stop

    To actually make the spindle run at this point, I can twist together the DCM and FOR wires and magically the spindle runs great, I can control the speed (pot or PWM - depending on connections), and no E-Stop at Mach.

    I just can't wrap my head around how having DCM and FOR connected to the Relay and having the relay make the contact can cause the E-Stop.

    Chris
    When you see the PWM signal start, is this connected to anything

    How do you have the Pot wired

    Something in the EStop circuit that is causing the fault, what do you have this connected to
    Mactec54

  11. #11
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    I had the pot wired as such (going by memory)...

    POT --> VFD
    T1 to ACM
    Wiper to VI
    T2 to 10V
    Works fine (except for the issue as describe about the relay)


    For the PWM...
    I have supplied that with 24 from the VFD and from a separate source (no difference)
    I have had the PWM signals connected to the digital-to-analog board and unconnected (no difference)
    I have had the 0 to 10 volts connect to ACM & VI and unconnected (no difference)
    What I mean by no difference is that the problem related to the wires connected to the relay did not affect that problem one way or another.
    When the pot is connected and I jumper DCM to FOR, spindle speed control is good.
    When the 0-10v signal is connected to ACM & VI and when I jumper DCM to FOR, spindle speed control is good.

    E-Stop circuit could not be more simple...
    5v ---> E-stop Switch ---> Port 1, Pin 10 input
    I have also, through the Mach ports and pins configuration, disabled the E-stop input and this had no affect on the problem. I cannot find any other documentation in the Mach3 stuff that explains what will trigger E-Stop besides the E-stop switch, limit switches, etc.

    Chris D

  12. #12
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris D View Post
    I had the pot wired as such (going by memory)...

    POT --> VFD
    T1 to ACM
    Wiper to VI
    T2 to 10V
    Works fine (except for the issue as describe about the relay)


    For the PWM...
    I have supplied that with 24 from the VFD and from a separate source (no difference)
    I have had the PWM signals connected to the digital-to-analog board and unconnected (no difference)
    I have had the 0 to 10 volts connect to ACM & VI and unconnected (no difference)
    What I mean by no difference is that the problem related to the wires connected to the relay did not affect that problem one way or another.
    When the pot is connected and I jumper DCM to FOR, spindle speed control is good.
    When the 0-10v signal is connected to ACM & VI and when I jumper DCM to FOR, spindle speed control is good.

    E-Stop circuit could not be more simple...
    5v ---> E-stop Switch ---> Port 1, Pin 10 input
    I have also, through the Mach ports and pins configuration, disabled the E-stop input and this had no affect on the problem. I cannot find any other documentation in the Mach3 stuff that explains what will trigger E-Stop besides the E-stop switch, limit switches, etc.

    Chris D
    How do you have the VFD wired input power and output and what spindle do you have
    Mactec54

  13. #13
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    The spindle and drive were purchased in June of 2017 off ebay and have been used for the last 2 years on this machine.

    2.2KW ER20 FOUR BEARING AIR-COOLED SPINDLE MOTOR & 2.2KW INVERTER DRIVE VFD TOP
    ( 171841127523 )

    It is no longer listed on the motormall store but I am sure it is the same as all the others out there.

    I don't know the exact data of the motor

    This is 220v single phase, two loads and a ground (going by memory) loads to RS and Ground to Earth

    UVW to spindle - ground to housing


    CHris D

  14. #14
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris D View Post
    The spindle and drive were purchased in June of 2017 off ebay and have been used for the last 2 years on this machine.

    2.2KW ER20 FOUR BEARING AIR-COOLED SPINDLE MOTOR & 2.2KW INVERTER DRIVE VFD TOP
    ( 171841127523 )

    It is no longer listed on the motormall store but I am sure it is the same as all the others out there.

    I don't know the exact data of the motor

    This is 220v single phase, two loads and a ground (going by memory) loads to RS and Ground to Earth

    UVW to spindle - ground to housing


    CHris D

    That is correct if you know what Kw and the RPM then they all have much the same spec's

    R and S is Ok but R and T is more reliable for these HY VFD Drives

    What is the Cable that you have from the VFD Drive to the Spindle and how have you done the Ground Photo would be good
    Mactec54

  15. #15
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Apart from you spindle VFD wiring which would be good to see I think you where creating a short with you PWM output and your Pot you can't have both connected at the same time or not how you have it wired anyway

    So disconnect the pot and connect the VI and ACM only to your PWM out put 0-10v and connect the relay as you had it to FOR and DCM
    Mactec54

  16. #16
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Hi Mactec54,

    The pot and the PWM/Analog were/are never connected to the VFD at the same time. They are mutually exclusive.

    Chris D

  17. #17
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris D View Post
    Hi Mactec54,

    The pot and the PWM/Analog were/are never connected to the VFD at the same time. They are mutually exclusive.

    Chris D
    I'm thinking that the PWM board is what has the problem the VFD works fine when not connected to the Breakout Board so something has happened with that part, or there is something with the spindle wiring that is causing lots of noise

    What changed you said you ran it for 2 years, did you add the PWM control and this is when it failed
    Mactec54

  18. #18
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    I changed a lot during the last month. I did add the PWM control, however, it was working and I used the machine at that time to run some parts.

    "Noise " being the problem also seems unlikely. I can get the spindle running and controlled by the PWM signal, I can start and stop it (By twisting together the DCM & FOR) wires and not have any problems at all. I can also do the same with the pot instead of the PWM signal. In these cases, the noise should be present and have the same cause and effect I would think.

    With that said, I have a new relay board on order and a new and different PWM/Analog board on order to swap them out and see if there is a cause effect doing that. Beyond that, the next thing to replace would be the VFD, perhaps something is wacky in that thing?

    I also have an oscilloscope, I might try running some tests with the scope and maybe I will see a spike or drop in voltage somewhere that might be causing this problem.

    Chris D

  19. #19
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris D View Post
    I changed a lot during the last month. I did add the PWM control, however, it was working and I used the machine at that time to run some parts.

    "Noise " being the problem also seems unlikely. I can get the spindle running and controlled by the PWM signal, I can start and stop it (By twisting together the DCM & FOR) wires and not have any problems at all. I can also do the same with the pot instead of the PWM signal. In these cases, the noise should be present and have the same cause and effect I would think.

    With that said, I have a new relay board on order and a new and different PWM/Analog board on order to swap them out and see if there is a cause effect doing that. Beyond that, the next thing to replace would be the VFD, perhaps something is wacky in that thing?

    I also have an oscilloscope, I might try running some tests with the scope and maybe I will see a spike or drop in voltage somewhere that might be causing this problem.

    Chris D
    If the VFD runs it is fine, and both of the connections are working FOR and DCM and VI and the Pot connections so the problem is you connection in between, remove the PWM Board and just use a relay by it's self, use an output to turn the Relay on /off and connect the output of the relay direct to FOR and DCM this will be a good test if this fails then there is noise with the relay switching that is causing your Breakout Board to fault and will need a snubber attached to the relay
    Mactec54

  20. #20
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    Re: Mach3 - ESS smooth stepper - Huanyang Chinese VFD - Mach 3 e-stopping???

    It is going to be a long week and a half before I get back to the shop for further testing. My focus is certainly on the Relay board and I was told by my wife the replacement arrived today.

    Thanks Mactec54

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