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  1. #37

    Join Date
    Jul 2018
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    19
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post



    Wait a minute. That's less than 4 tenths. Isn't that far better than the machine itself? Isn't anything less than 5 tenths considered pretty good for general machining?

    If the Haimer isn't working for you what do you go with instead?

    One option with electronic edge finders is to probe twice 180 degrees out, and then do the math. Even then unless you have a really really high end probe you could still be +/- a couple tenths. I've tested this by auto probing hole centers with am electronic probe. Cheap ones and mid range ones. Never had a high end one.
    Yes +/-0.01mm is the spec of the Haimer but the tip never maintained it concentricity so the total accuracy of the Haimer turned out much worse than that (on the Tormach at least.) It’s just unpredictable for me.

    The ITTP maintained its concentricity due to a more robust design with a more rigid stylus. It still requires a bit of setup for highly accurate work, but it is highly repeatable and predictable given a careful setup and use, like always probe with a calibrate feedrate and in the exact spindle orientation.

    Prior to the ITTP, I locate my important work with a center scope (X/Y) and a plain dial indicator for Z. They are very repeatable, but slow.

    I tested the Haimer against gage blocks/parallels but the numbers are all over the place. Using a center scope and a dial indicator, with the backlash compensated (manually or via software) I could always get accurate measurements.

    Repeatability is the key for me. With the ITTP, after careful setup, I am always able to get reliable and repeatable measurements off a gage.

    And of course, it depends on how good your Tormach mill is. Mine is carefully tuned with backlash compensation (with frequent manual periodical adjustments) so I have average of about 0.0001”-0.0002” (2.5-5 microns) of backlash for most of my work area.

    All my tool holders are clocked to the spindle for minimum flute to flute TIR and they repeat exactly as long as I line them up exactly every time. This is how I enjoy milling 62-64hrc tool steel with 3mm endmill that requires 1% diameter WOC and even tinier chip load.

    It just frustrated me that all my tools repeat but the Haimer didn’t.

    Recently I have intentionally made my ITTP tip non-concentric so it probes the exact same square hole within 5 microns when rotated 180°. I did this after I realize I mostly use it to find center for X and Y. And now I can simply probe a hole and get accurate position without rotating it 180°. (If the hole is circular, it should be probed twice to find center accurately.)

    In short, the ITTP is good for locating within +/-0.005mm / 0.0002” with very careful work, and I trust it to be within +/-0.01mm with general use and stay that way, but the Haimer didn’t.

    I don’t do general machining with the Tormach and it’s just my hobby mill. I still struggle with its limitations.

  2. #38
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    1376

    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    The photo shows a Haimer tip that documents a distracted moment. The pink part is some sort of ceramic material and the ridged post on the ball secures it into the holder.

  3. #39

    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    26

    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    To day I ran a indicator in the spindle, it was fine.. maybe 2 tenths out.
    I put in the r8 and the haimer tool holder and ran the indicator in the tool holder bore. a thou of runout.
    I ordered another tool holder from tomach last week, but it still hasnt come in the mail. I leave the country for work on friday morning for 2 weeks. I think im going to have to start back at it after I get back.

    Quote Originally Posted by 109jb View Post
    I would do the following:

    1. Remove the R8 collet and indicate the spindle taper to see how true this runs.
    2. Check that the R8 alignment pin inside the spindle is not sticking into the spindle too far. I had this once and it would impinge on the collet when tightened and cause runout.
    3. Insert the R8 collet and a 3/4" ground rod or a long 3/4 dowel rod. The rod/dowel must be straight. You want some stick out so you can check runout close to the collet face and also a bit away from the collet.

    As far a using a V block to indicate the probe tip in, that will get the probe tip concentric with the TTS shank, but if there is runout in the spindle taper or the R8 collet then the probe tip will not run true. The goal should be to get the tip to run true to the spindle bearings, so a V block isn't the correct choice in my opinion. I would do as you have been doing and make a clocking mark so that the probe can be inserted the same way each time.
    "Check that the R8 alignment pin inside the spindle is not sticking into the spindle too far." ---How far is to far?

    I have some precision ground drill rod, but I know its not straight. So should I use a gauge pin? Or would that be too short?

  4. #40
    Registered
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    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1698

    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    I checked my hamier after a few days of heavy use and found no movement of needle on a 0.0005 indicator. I would need a better quality indicator to see a problem. Also took the time to check run out on a number of tools in holders and found near 0 on tools in set screw holders and various surprising amounts on tools in collets.

    Might be a little fussy but I think you can dial it in.

  5. #41
    Registered
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    Mar 2011
    Posts
    451

    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    FWIW,
    I bought the 3/4" Shank Haimer and ran directly in the R8 collet (no toolholder) with no issues staying within a few tenths . It was also nice to have the shorter gauge length.

  6. #42
    Registered
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    Dec 2008
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    610

    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Are you tightening the drawbar when using the Haimer? Do you need to tap the drawbar to release it?
    Step

  7. #43

    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    26

    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurboStep View Post
    Are you tightening the drawbar when using the Haimer? Do you need to tap the drawbar to release it?
    Step
    I do tighten the drawbar, but not so tight that I need to tap the drawbar to release the haimer out of the spindle.

  8. #44
    Registered
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    Oct 2008
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    1910

    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Did you put a collar on it so you could use it for height offset as well?
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  9. #45
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    Mar 2011
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    451
    Quote Originally Posted by TurboStep View Post
    Are you tightening the drawbar when using the Haimer? Do you need to tap the drawbar to release it?
    Step
    I had pdb, so it was tightened like any tool holder.
    Shouldn't need to tap it if the r8 collet is lubed on the outside taper.

  10. #46
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    Mar 2011
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    451
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    Did you put a collar on it so you could use it for height offset as well?
    No need for a collar, just the Haimer. Height was set on the tts granite block just like all tools.

  11. #47
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
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    1376

    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    I think that his question was in relation to your usage of the Haimer to set Z-height of your stock. In my experience a tool with a 3/4-inch shank and flat top for the tool will vary slightly in Z location since the top of the tool rests on the R8 collet rather than on the spindle nose. I once tried to use a facemill with no TTS recess on the top. I eventually determined that the variation in tool length was of a result of how tightly the collet closed.

  12. #48
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    Mar 2009
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    1852
    Quote Originally Posted by Snecx View Post
    I had this problem with Haimer and the TTS holder for it. The concentricity of the tip always go off by +/-0.01mm after a while, but not immediate like yours did.

    Unfortunately I don't have good news for you as I have pretty much given up on my Haimer. I use the Hallmark ITTP now and that has been a great piece of equipment.

    I hope you will find a solution for your Haimer soon.
    If your Haimer is off by .01mm, I wouldn’t even be concerned. That’s only .00039 inches. That’s less than half a thousandth of an inch. The machines aren’t even that accurate. If you need better accuracy than that, you probably bought the wrong machine.

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