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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Tormach Personal CNC Mill > tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?
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  1. #21
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snecx View Post
    I had this problem with Haimer and the TTS holder for it. The concentricity of the tip always go off by +/-0.01mm after a while, but not immediate like yours did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snecx View Post

    Unfortunately I don't have good news for you as I have pretty much given up on my Haimer. I use the Hallmark ITTP now and that has been a great piece of equipment.

    I hope you will find a solution for your Haimer soon.



    Wait a minute. That's less than 4 tenths. Isn't that far better than the machine itself? Isn't anything less than 5 tenths considered pretty good for general machining?

    If the Haimer isn't working for you what do you go with instead?

    One option with electronic edge finders is to probe twice 180 degrees out, and then do the math. Even then unless you have a really really high end probe you could still be +/- a couple tenths. I've tested this by auto probing hole centers with am electronic probe. Cheap ones and mid range ones. Never had a high end one.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  2. #22
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Sure seems to indicate 4 tenths is the spec for the unit.
    Please take note: The given measuring precision of 0.01 mm / 0.0004" only applies if the original HAIMER probe tips are used.
    https://www.haimer-usa.com/products/...3d-sensor.html
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  3. #23
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    Sure seems to indicate 4 tenths is the spec for the unit.


    https://www.haimer-usa.com/products/...3d-sensor.html

    When I said my probe needed adjustment is was off by exactly 2x that amount or 0.0008 moving the 0.0005 indicator a little in each side of 0
    I use tormach holder, hamier tips, . No drops, no spins. Good history of use, It even sets with a cover over it in tool rack.

  4. #24
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    That's 4 tenths off center. Whichever way you measure its off 4 tenths. Not 8 tenths. Unless I grossly misunderstood what you just wrote.

    Just like in a 4 jaw chuck in a lathe. Its exactly half the variance off center when you throw your indicator on it. If you read 1 inch variance the stock is 1/2 inch off center.

    So, anyway, what is the alernative?
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  5. #25
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    It depends on your accuracy requirements. When I really care about an edge I use a Moore "chair style" edge locator. For holes and tooling balls I use a spindle mounted DTI. Both are a pain but provide reliable accuracy to tenths.

  6. #26
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    You know in my previous comments I forgot to mention two things that may or may not be relevant.

    My comments don't take into account any inaccuracy in the clockwork mechanism. I would assume its designed so that any backlash in the gears it taken up by using the tool and its designed that way.

    Even if your Haimer is slightly off center couldn't you improve your results with an inspection mirror? Zero the taster, zero the work offset, rotate the taster 180 degrees, using your inspection mirror zero it again, and finally divide the number on your DRO by two.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  7. #27
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    One option with electronic edge finders is to probe twice 180 degrees out, and then do the math. Even then unless you have a really really high end probe you could still be +/- a couple tenths. I've tested this by auto probing hole centers with am electronic probe. Cheap ones and mid range ones. Never had a high end one.

    I have a Renishaw here albeit a very old one with the manual interface board, I mainly only probe holes and use the automatic routine in Pathpilot. you still have the machine errors and if the hole is not perfect and clean there will be errors there as well. Hole probing cancels the errors associated with it, but it still shows a tenth or two off at times., more or less it depends on how many times you want to split a hair............it is plenty close enough for the work I do, and the tip position doesnt change.
    mike sr

  8. #28
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    If it's not too late send it back. I get repeatability under half a thou on my tormach with the Hallmark ITTP and markings on the spindle and tool to ensure the same rotation and low speed probing (essential). You can do more with it too.

  9. #29
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    OP- I would try a different collet first thing.

    If it's not too late send it back. I get repeatability under half a thou on my tormach with the Hallmark ITTP and markings on the spindle and tool to ensure the same rotation and low speed probing (essential). You can do more with it too.
    Except that the reason for the OP's problem has not been determined. If the problem lies in the collet or the the spindle (Ie: tapers not correct or not seating properly), then it won't matter what you put in it as they will all be off. A Haimer is a well respected tool and I doubt that the problem is inside the probe.

    I'm sure the ITTP is a fine tool. It looks to be a well thought out and well constructed piece of equipment, but "You can do more with it too" isn't true. You can maybe do things faster, or you can automate things, but you can't really do "more". As a matter of fact the Haimer can do something the ITTP cannot. It can be use like a dial indicator to tram in a vise by watching the needle movement, or for checking the flatness of stock by running on the top surface, something no on-off probe can do. That is not to say the ITTP is bad, but don't discount a tool just because it has a dial on the front.

  10. #30
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by 109jb View Post
    OP- I would try a different collet first thing.



    Except that the reason for the OP's problem has not been determined. If the problem lies in the collet or the the spindle (Ie: tapers not correct or not seating properly), then it won't matter what you put in it as they will all be off. A Haimer is a well respected tool and I doubt that the problem is inside the probe.

    I'm sure the ITTP is a fine tool. It looks to be a well thought out and well constructed piece of equipment, but "You can do more with it too" isn't true. You can maybe do things faster, or you can automate things, but you can't really do "more". As a matter of fact the Haimer can do something the ITTP cannot. It can be use like a dial indicator to tram in a vise by watching the needle movement, or for checking the flatness of stock by running on the top surface, something no on-off probe can do. That is not to say the ITTP is bad, but don't discount a tool just because it has a dial on the front.
    You're right. The source of the problem is more important, and I won't be any help there.

    I digitize with my ITTP. Note, they say it's not yet rated for that, but it works for me. That might be technically possible with a Haimer, but I think you'd agree it's not feasible.
    Your point stands, though. Certainly faster to check for flatness with an analog indicator, and a Haimer is definitely well respected. For my money, some dial indicators + an ITTP serves me best. For others that may be different. Some of the best machinists don't have any on/off probes, I'm sure. Mine has been a godsend.

  11. #31

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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by popspipes
    Maybe the shock of the PDB closing/closing is affecting the accuracy?
    I would try a piece of ground stock in the spindle, indicate it and then remove and reinstall, and indicate it again, if there is no difference iwould be suspect of the haimer, as the shock of the PDB opening or closing may be affecting it possibly??
    Sounds like a couple of others are having similar problems.

    Very interested in what you find the problem to be.
    I do not have a power drawbar. I will however be getting one in a few months. I hope I figure out the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by 109jb View Post
    OP- I would try a different collet first thing.
    I tried this with a new r8 collet today. I still am having the same issues. I will try different tool holders as well soon once I receive them. I might get another haimer tip and try it with another tip. Honestly I am starting to think I am the problem, this shouldnt be that hard. Now, im no pro machinist, but thousnads of people have done this without issue.

    I read on practical machinist that this should be done in a v block. Once the haimer is calibrated in a v block, it has concentricity and and problem after calibration in a v block would be coming from the r8 collet or spindle or both. I am just not quite sure yet about how this is done exactly. Has anyone ever heard/done it this way?

  12. #32
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?


  13. #33

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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by kstrauss View Post
    Excellent share! I will read the pdf later tonight, thank you

  14. #34
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    I would do the following:

    1. Remove the R8 collet and indicate the spindle taper to see how true this runs.
    2. Check that the R8 alignment pin inside the spindle is not sticking into the spindle too far. I had this once and it would impinge on the collet when tightened and cause runout.
    3. Insert the R8 collet and a 3/4" ground rod or a long 3/4 dowel rod. The rod/dowel must be straight. You want some stick out so you can check runout close to the collet face and also a bit away from the collet.

    As far a using a V block to indicate the probe tip in, that will get the probe tip concentric with the TTS shank, but if there is runout in the spindle taper or the R8 collet then the probe tip will not run true. The goal should be to get the tip to run true to the spindle bearings, so a V block isn't the correct choice in my opinion. I would do as you have been doing and make a clocking mark so that the probe can be inserted the same way each time.

  15. #35
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    I think those probe stylus' are ceramic to metal joints, maybe one is a bit loose, dont know if this has been mentioned.........
    mike sr

  16. #36
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    I've broken several... They appear to be a metal inner part consisting of the ball and a shank with ceramic molded around it and the screw part at the top. I suppose that the ceramic could be cracked without actually separating completely. I can post a photoe of the internals tomorrow if that would help.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post



    Wait a minute. That's less than 4 tenths. Isn't that far better than the machine itself? Isn't anything less than 5 tenths considered pretty good for general machining?

    If the Haimer isn't working for you what do you go with instead?

    One option with electronic edge finders is to probe twice 180 degrees out, and then do the math. Even then unless you have a really really high end probe you could still be +/- a couple tenths. I've tested this by auto probing hole centers with am electronic probe. Cheap ones and mid range ones. Never had a high end one.
    Yes +/-0.01mm is the spec of the Haimer but the tip never maintained it concentricity so the total accuracy of the Haimer turned out much worse than that (on the Tormach at least.) It’s just unpredictable for me.

    The ITTP maintained its concentricity due to a more robust design with a more rigid stylus. It still requires a bit of setup for highly accurate work, but it is highly repeatable and predictable given a careful setup and use, like always probe with a calibrate feedrate and in the exact spindle orientation.

    Prior to the ITTP, I locate my important work with a center scope (X/Y) and a plain dial indicator for Z. They are very repeatable, but slow.

    I tested the Haimer against gage blocks/parallels but the numbers are all over the place. Using a center scope and a dial indicator, with the backlash compensated (manually or via software) I could always get accurate measurements.

    Repeatability is the key for me. With the ITTP, after careful setup, I am always able to get reliable and repeatable measurements off a gage.

    And of course, it depends on how good your Tormach mill is. Mine is carefully tuned with backlash compensation (with frequent manual periodical adjustments) so I have average of about 0.0001”-0.0002” (2.5-5 microns) of backlash for most of my work area.

    All my tool holders are clocked to the spindle for minimum flute to flute TIR and they repeat exactly as long as I line them up exactly every time. This is how I enjoy milling 62-64hrc tool steel with 3mm endmill that requires 1% diameter WOC and even tinier chip load.

    It just frustrated me that all my tools repeat but the Haimer didn’t.

    Recently I have intentionally made my ITTP tip non-concentric so it probes the exact same square hole within 5 microns when rotated 180°. I did this after I realize I mostly use it to find center for X and Y. And now I can simply probe a hole and get accurate position without rotating it 180°. (If the hole is circular, it should be probed twice to find center accurately.)

    In short, the ITTP is good for locating within +/-0.005mm / 0.0002” with very careful work, and I trust it to be within +/-0.01mm with general use and stay that way, but the Haimer didn’t.

    I don’t do general machining with the Tormach and it’s just my hobby mill. I still struggle with its limitations.

  18. #38
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    The photo shows a Haimer tip that documents a distracted moment. The pink part is some sort of ceramic material and the ridged post on the ball secures it into the holder.

  19. #39

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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    To day I ran a indicator in the spindle, it was fine.. maybe 2 tenths out.
    I put in the r8 and the haimer tool holder and ran the indicator in the tool holder bore. a thou of runout.
    I ordered another tool holder from tomach last week, but it still hasnt come in the mail. I leave the country for work on friday morning for 2 weeks. I think im going to have to start back at it after I get back.

    Quote Originally Posted by 109jb View Post
    I would do the following:

    1. Remove the R8 collet and indicate the spindle taper to see how true this runs.
    2. Check that the R8 alignment pin inside the spindle is not sticking into the spindle too far. I had this once and it would impinge on the collet when tightened and cause runout.
    3. Insert the R8 collet and a 3/4" ground rod or a long 3/4 dowel rod. The rod/dowel must be straight. You want some stick out so you can check runout close to the collet face and also a bit away from the collet.

    As far a using a V block to indicate the probe tip in, that will get the probe tip concentric with the TTS shank, but if there is runout in the spindle taper or the R8 collet then the probe tip will not run true. The goal should be to get the tip to run true to the spindle bearings, so a V block isn't the correct choice in my opinion. I would do as you have been doing and make a clocking mark so that the probe can be inserted the same way each time.
    "Check that the R8 alignment pin inside the spindle is not sticking into the spindle too far." ---How far is to far?

    I have some precision ground drill rod, but I know its not straight. So should I use a gauge pin? Or would that be too short?

  20. #40
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    Re: tormach limitation, or am I doing something wrong?

    I checked my hamier after a few days of heavy use and found no movement of needle on a 0.0005 indicator. I would need a better quality indicator to see a problem. Also took the time to check run out on a number of tools in holders and found near 0 on tools in set screw holders and various surprising amounts on tools in collets.

    Might be a little fussy but I think you can dial it in.

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