[wmgeorge]

This is an FYI post with a link to Mil Spec and USAF air craft wiring standards. Yes soldering is allowed.

https://www.steinair.com/wp-content/...G-BONDING-.pdf

Another one for the folks working on the space shuttle.

https://prod.nais.nasa.gov/eps/eps_d...ER-002-006.pdf

Out of the text> 7.3.23 The use of solder sleeves (where wire insulation temperatures permit), hand soldering, or
crimp rings are acceptable for terminating individual shields (Requirement).


You know what they say... If its good enough for the Space Shuttle

[Chris D]

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Chris D

[Chris D]

WMGeorge,

Based on what I am reading in that first document, I see what you are saying and frankly I really like that solder-able sleeve that goes around the shield braid. That connects the braid nicely to the ground wire and covers up the braid with what I believe is commonly referred to as heat shrink tubing.

I believe what Mactec is referring to is what I did.

I took the braid, combed out a section, twisted that together to make a sort of wire. I then soldered that to the connector housing. In cases where the connector housing doesn't attach to a metal surface that is grounded (such as the plastic cover to my motor), I splice in a conductor and attach that to ground. It is crude, however it has worked for me in thousands of serial communications wires I have installed. There is a big difference between a simple serial communications cable and the higher power stuff coming out of that VFD.

Frankly, in the future, I will probably try to mimic that method shown in the reference material you provided.

Chris D

[mactec54]

This is an FYI post with a link to Mil Spec and USAF air craft wiring standards. Yes soldering is allowed.

https://www.steinair.com/wp-content/...G-BONDING-.pdf

Another one for the folks working on the space shuttle.

https://prod.nais.nasa.gov/eps/eps_d...ER-002-006.pdf

Out of the text> 7.3.23 The use of solder sleeves (where wire insulation temperatures permit), hand soldering, or
crimp rings are acceptable for terminating individual shields (Requirement).


You know what they say... If its good enough for the Space Shuttle

Yes they do use some soldered connections in special circumstances but as you can see the preferred method is crimping


From Mil spec's Manual Crimping comprises the majority of wire terminations in aircraft where quick, easy, and reliable contact is called for. Crimping may be the method of choice if other methods compromise safety in fueled aircraft.

[wmgeorge]

WMGeorge,

Based on what I am reading in that first document, I see what you are saying and frankly I really like that solder-able sleeve that goes around the shield braid. That connects the braid nicely to the ground wire and covers up the braid with what I believe is commonly referred to as heat shrink tubing.

I believe what Mactec is referring to is what I did.

I took the braid, combed out a section, twisted that together to make a sort of wire. I then soldered that to the connector housing. In cases where the connector housing doesn't attach to a metal surface that is grounded (such as the plastic cover to my motor), I splice in a conductor and attach that to ground. It is crude, however it has worked for me in thousands of serial communications wires I have installed. There is a big difference between a simple serial communications cable and the higher power stuff coming out of that VFD.

Frankly, in the future, I will probably try to mimic that method shown in the reference material you provided.

Chris D

The info I published is FYI and if its good enough for the NASA and USAF it should be good enough for a home built router. When I was in the USAF I was working with some top notch folks on the B52's and fighter jets stationed with us. I am also a licensed amateur radio guy and have built radio transmitters and amplifiers, as well as long range antennas for such. I know what I am posting about and do not need to look it up nor do I need to post misleading and not truthful information.

[wmgeorge]

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Chris D

The issues I have are from CNCZone monitors.

[109jb]

The problem I have with crimp connections is when people use the $3 crimp tool from WalMart. Some of the brands of crimp connectors are also suspect. I would take a soldered connection over a crimp using inferior connectors or tools any day.

As a general rule, I will consider or sometimes prefer solder if the following criteria is met.

1. The solder joint is not subject to repeated motion or can be isolated from such motion
2. I want the electrical properties of the joint to last (Think stuff like trailer wiring splices exposed to rain, snow, salt, mud)
3. I don't happen to have the right crimp connector and the joint is not "hazardous" if it fails, even if there is motion on it.
4. If I have a bundle with many splices I will solder and heat shrink because the joint will not flex that much, and the finished product will be much smaller than a bunch of crimp connectors at the same spot.

Having said that, I'm sure I crimp more than I solder but I use a good ratcheting crimp tool when I do, but there are some things I prefer soldering for.

For example, I just installed a new car stereo into my old car to get some modern functionality. I only wanted to do this once, so all of the connections were soldered and covered with heat shrink for 2 of the reasons I mentioned. First I want to be sure the electrical properties of the joints are perfect. Second, I didn't want a huge blob where I had about 18 splices from the radio harness to the vehicle harness. Would crimps work here? Sure, but I prefer solder.

[wmgeorge]

The problem I have with crimp connections is when people use the $3 crimp tool from WalMart. Some of the brands of crimp connectors are also suspect. I would take a soldered connection over a crimp using inferior connectors or tools any day.

As a general rule, I will consider or sometimes prefer solder if the following criteria is met.

1. The solder joint is not subject to repeated motion or can be isolated from such motion
2. I want the electrical properties of the joint to last (Think stuff like trailer wiring splices exposed to rain, snow, salt, mud)
3. I don't happen to have the right crimp connector and the joint is not "hazardous" if it fails, even if there is motion on it.
4. If I have a bundle with many splices I will solder and heat shrink because the joint will not flex that much, and the finished product will be much smaller than a bunch of crimp connectors at the same spot.

Having said that, I'm sure I crimp more than I solder but I use a good ratcheting crimp tool when I do, but there are some things I prefer soldering for.

For example, I just installed a new car stereo into my old car to get some modern functionality. I only wanted to do this once, so all of the connections were soldered and covered with heat shrink for 2 of the reasons I mentioned. First I want to be sure the electrical properties of the joints are perfect. Second, I didn't want a huge blob where I had about 18 splices from the radio harness to the vehicle harness. Would crimps work here? Sure, but I prefer solder.

Well the USAF went to crimp connections for a lot of things before my time 1981-1965 simply because its sometimes difficult to get power for a soldering gun or iron out on the flight line. In the hanger no problem. But they did Not use the cheap crimp terminals or splices they were Mil-Spec and damn good. You had two crimp tools and the preferred was the automatic ratcheting ones as it would not let you make a bad splice. It crimped two places on the splice or terminal. Once for the wire and the other wire and insulation. But they still used a lot of solder connections on mission critical jobs. BTW the terminal and splices for crimping were T&B brand which I still try to buy today.... they are still damn good and also expensive!!

[mactec54]

The problem I have with crimp connections is when people use the $3 crimp tool from WalMart. Some of the brands of crimp connectors are also suspect. I would take a soldered connection over a crimp using inferior connectors or tools any day.

As a general rule, I will consider or sometimes prefer solder if the following criteria is met.

1. The solder joint is not subject to repeated motion or can be isolated from such motion
2. I want the electrical properties of the joint to last (Think stuff like trailer wiring splices exposed to rain, snow, salt, mud)
3. I don't happen to have the right crimp connector and the joint is not "hazardous" if it fails, even if there is motion on it.
4. If I have a bundle with many splices I will solder and heat shrink because the joint will not flex that much, and the finished product will be much smaller than a bunch of crimp connectors at the same spot.

Having said that, I'm sure I crimp more than I solder but I use a good ratcheting crimp tool when I do, but there are some things I prefer soldering for.

For example, I just installed a new car stereo into my old car to get some modern functionality. I only wanted to do this once, so all of the connections were soldered and covered with heat shrink for 2 of the reasons I mentioned. First I want to be sure the electrical properties of the joints are perfect. Second, I didn't want a huge blob where I had about 18 splices from the radio harness to the vehicle harness. Would crimps work here? Sure, but I prefer solder.

We are not talking about soldering regular wires we are talking about soldering the shields on a shielded cable, it is quite normal to solder wires but not shields

[wmgeorge]

We are not talking about soldering regular wires we are talking about soldering the shields on a shielded cable, it is quite normal to solder wires but not shields

Take some time and read the publication from NASA you might learn something important, it covers shields and regular splicing and termination. If its good enough for the Space Shuttle it should be good enough for you. :wave:

[109jb]

We are not talking about soldering regular wires we are talking about soldering the shields on a shielded cable, it is quite normal to solder wires but not shields

Why the underline?????????????????????????????????????

I am talking about regular wires because the original post in this thread linked about 500 pages of documents covering all aspects of wiring. Also, the title of the thread is "Re: Soldering vs Mil Spec vs Air Craft wiring". Nowhere in the title is shield termination mentioned and only a small blurb in the body that doesn't really tell an unwary reader that this is a carry-over thread from somewhere else.

As far as soldering shielding, it is done all the time using solder sleeves, by soldering a wire directly to the shield, or even specially made solder sleeves that have a wire or braid already integrated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmVLVhGoGQs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixJPdZ8cwgE

Both of these videos are from Garmin, manufacturer of avionics as in used n airplanes. I think I'll trust what they have to say about it. Besides that, it simply works and if you don't like it then you don't have to do it, but saying it is not an acceptable practice is pure baloney.

[mactec54]

Take some time and read the publication from NASA you might learn something important, it covers shields and regular splicing and termination. If its good enough for the Space Shuttle it should be good enough for you. :wave:

A good publication if you know how to interpret what they are showing you the only problem this is very old and out dated 1998 a lot has change since then

There was some very basic soldering and the crimp solder sleeves that was it for your soldering, I though you had something 90% was all about crimping as I have been saying even back then crimping was what they used mostly

1998 is long gone, Today it has all changed these snips are from your publication are also not used anymore even for there crimping, I see if I can get you a new up to date wire and shield termination I have some contacts that may be able to get something don't hold you breath though it may take a while

[mactec54]

Why the underline?????????????????????????????????????

I am talking about regular wires because the original post in this thread linked about 500 pages of documents covering all aspects of wiring. Also, the title of the thread is "Re: Soldering vs Mil Spec vs Air Craft wiring". Nowhere in the title is shield termination mentioned and only a small blurb in the body that doesn't really tell an unwary reader that this is a carry-over thread from somewhere else.

As far as soldering shielding, it is done all the time using solder sleeves, by soldering a wire directly to the shield, or even specially made solder sleeves that have a wire or braid already integrated.

Both of these videos are from Garmin, manufacturer of avionics as in used n airplanes. I think I'll trust what they have to say about it. Besides that, it simply works and if you don't like it then you don't have to do it, but saying it is not an acceptable practice is pure baloney.

What he showed in the videos would not pass inspection for aircraft, you can't even use those types of tools he was using, you never add a tail to a shield like that this snip will show you why not to

[109jb]

What he showed in the videos would not pass inspection for aircraft, you can't even use those types of tools he was using, you never add a tail to a shield like that this snip will show you why not to

That's funny because it passes inspections every day and even though you say it isn't acceptable it seems that there are tons of documents that say otherwise. I guess your opinion is better than Mil specs and NASA documents and SAE specs

https://www.sae.org/standards/content/as83519/

https://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/ins.../files/407.pdf

Edit: Also there is no regulation that prohibits an aircraft mechanic in the USA from using any tool he wants.

[wmgeorge]

That's funny because it passes inspections every day and even though you say it isn't acceptable it seems that there are tons of documents that say otherwise. I guess your opinion is better than Mil specs and NASA documents and SAE specs

https://www.sae.org/standards/content/as83519/

https://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/ins.../files/407.pdf

Edit: Also there is no regulation that prohibits an aircraft mechanic in the USA from using any tool he wants.

Your wasting your time with this guy. He knows Everything!! All my work passed inspection and some of the air craft is still flying today. Let the readers here do the reading of the Facts and decide. He is just a nobody who posts a lot. Garmin is a respected name in aviation electronics and they are far more qualified than he is, thats for sure! If he thinks air craft wiring is outdated in 10 or 20 years and all needs to be changed.......

[mactec54]

That's funny because it passes inspections every day and even though you say it isn't acceptable it seems that there are tons of documents that say otherwise. I guess your opinion is better than Mil specs and NASA documents and SAE specs

https://www.sae.org/standards/content/as83519/

https://workmanship.nasa.gov/lib/ins.../files/407.pdf

Edit: Also there is no regulation that prohibits an aircraft mechanic in the USA from using any tool he wants.

You seem to be talking about a different subject

An aircraft mechanic can use what ever tools correct, nobody said they could not, he is not a electronics tec which have a requirement as to what and how they do there job, in the video he did a good job of what he was doing for low voltage systems is not what we are talking about

The videos you posted is all for low voltage, very little noise so you can do almost what ever you like with those kind of connections, has nothing to do with high voltage AC circuits VFD Drives, switch mode Power supplies AC Relays Etc.

Ever notice with your Car the low voltage Relays don't have snubbers for noise control, but relays for high voltage circuits do

I grew up in the aviation industry and had my first solo at 14 and licensed by 15, my father was an engine /air frame mechanic and I worked with him and others for years on all types of aircraft, anyone can post what ever they like but you have no experience in this area at all

[mactec54]

Your wasting your time with this guy. He knows Everything!! All my work passed inspection and some of the air craft is still flying today. Let the readers here do the reading of the Facts and decide. He is just a nobody who posts a lot. Garmin is a respected name in aviation electronics and they are far more qualified than he is, thats for sure! If he thinks air craft wiring is outdated in 10 or 20 years and all needs to be changed.......

So you should be able to tell us what the soldered wick allowance is for soldered wires and how it is determined

Yes when it comes to low voltage circuits you can do what ever you want to a point, High voltage AC is a different story and have a different set of rules for shield termination this is what we where talking about and you went in a different direction which is ok too

[wmgeorge]

So you should be able to tell us what the soldered wick allowance is for soldered wires and how it is determined

Yes when it comes to low voltage circuits you can do what ever you want to a point, High voltage AC is a different story and have a different set of rules for shield termination this is what we where talking about and you went in a different direction which is ok too

We were discussing shielding and wiring soldering vs crimping. It has nothing to do wether its low voltage or high voltage, Sure you have low voltage on air craft but you also have high voltage 400 cycle also. Military used 400 cycle for the electronics, look it up. Tired of wasting my time educating you.

[mactec54]

We were discussing shielding and wiring soldering vs crimping. It has nothing to do wether its low voltage or high voltage, Sure you have low voltage on air craft but you also have high voltage 400 cycle also. Military used 400 cycle for the electronics, look it up. Tired of wasting my time educating you .

We were discussing shielding and wiring soldering vs crimping, "yes correct" but what has been posted is about low voltage circuits which is not what the original posting was about

I'm well aware of what the Military uses, I have a aircraft support generator, a relic of the past, you could not educate anyone, first you need to educate yourself on how to spell

[109jb]

The videos you posted is all for low voltage, very little noise so you can do almost what ever you like with those kind of connections, has nothing to do with high voltage AC circuits VFD Drives, switch mode Power supplies AC Relays Etc.

Show me in THIS THREAD where it was specifically stated what the shielding was for. I'll give you a hint. Nothing was said until your post that I just quoted.

I grew up in the aviation industry and had my first solo at 14 and licensed by 15, my father was an engine /air frame mechanic and I worked with him and others for years on all types of aircraft, anyone can post what ever they like but you have no experience in this area at all

Well now I know you are lying. You can solo a glider or balloon at 14 (16 for airplanes, helicopters, etc.), but can't get a license (which any real pilot calls a certificate) until you are 16 for gliders and balloons (17 for powered aircraft). Also, nobody that is related to an Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic would refer to it as an engine /air frame mechanic.

You also have no idea what experience I have. I really soloed an airplane at 15, got my private certificate at 17 went on to get my commercial pilot certificate, CFII AMEL ASEL ASES, Graduated college with a degree in Aeronautical engineering where I also took EE classes, worked at Lockheed Martin on the F-35, built my own airplane....