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IndustryArena Forum > WoodWorking Machines > DIY CNC Router Table Machines > How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerances?
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  1. #1
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    How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerances?

    Hello Everyone,

    First some background, I'm an engineer with CNC machining experience and GD&T. I have a machine shop and have been thinking about building a CNC router capable of cutting aluminum and wood to within 0.001" repeat ability.I have been researching many sites with many DIY kits and DIY from scratch builds. No one seems to talk about how accurate and repeatable their machines are. From my experience, one cannot simply bolt some extrusions or steel tubing together and get the assembly to be planar within a 0.001". Do you build a flat reference surface/table first, then assemble? Does anyone use the old tight wire technique to ensure their rails and trucks are fastened to the metal base without dips or sags? Please give me some insight on how you are building a CNC router in three axis with precision.

  2. #2
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    You're not going to find any DIY routers accurate to .001".

    You mention repeatability, but also talk about flatness, which is something different entirely.

    If you need .001 accuracy, you need to weld a frame, have it stress relieved and machined for rail mounting surfaces.

    You'll also need expensive screws, as the cheap ones used by most are only accurate to ±.003" or so per ft.

    Another option is to weld up a frame, and use self leveling epoxy to get flat rail mounting surfaces. That gets you a coplaner surface, but you still need a way to get everything mounted straight.
    Gerry

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  3. #3
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    Hi JFL - To get a machine to 0.001" (0.025mm) you need to machine every component to ensure they all go together to achieve what you want. There are lots of threads here that go thru that process. Plus as Gerry says you need to purchase std parts (bearings etc) that exceed this. Its a long journey from scratch being a machine builder. But you say you have a machine shop so this is possible. A machined bed is the start so you need to figure out who can do the stress relieve and machining/grinding for you. Pick a commercial machine that meets your needs as a reference and copy that as best you can. A router is not best for aluminium you will have to figure if you are doing a router or a mill they are quite different but all things are possible. Peter

  4. #4
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    my CNC Routerparts can position to .001.... but it sure can't cut to .001.

  5. #5
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    0.02mm accuracy doesn't mean anything per se.

    - 0.02mm/100mm is easy to achieve.
    - 0.02mm/1000mm is another story.

  6. #6
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    Yes Jack agreed,,, JFL , How big a machine are you talking about? Pter

  7. #7
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    Your assumptions are correct, you don't just bolt together a bunch of extrusions and achieve <= .001 accuracy or repeatability.

    You mention your an engineer, what type of engineer are you?

    Chris D

  8. #8
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    You will not be able to build one with that kind of accuracy. Commercial routers in the 6 figure range do not achieve that accuracy. May get repeatability in the .005 range if you know what you are doing, accept a limited size range, and are willing to buy high grade parts and machine all mounting surfaces to the requirements specified by the manufacturer. And have proper metrology setup to actually measure your machined parts accurately. Any wood parts will move that much with minor humidity changes. What is it that you are actually trying to achieve?
    Tubular latex pressure vessel configuration engineer

  9. #9
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    Thank you everyone for your replies. You proved my suspicions. I'm a mechanical engineer in the automotive industry. Specifically block and head machining lines with 120 4 axis and 5 axis CNC machines. So I'm used to holding contours, holes, surfaces within microns. I also work with skilled trades in the maintenance of these machines.

    Any way, I'm looking to build a 48" x 48" CNC router. I already have a manual vertical mill. From everyone's experience what can I expect from 1. a better than average kit. 2.Sub $5000.00 machine? If I machine a contour like an arc how much variation of the profile will I get on average. If I drill a pattern of holes, how much variation in true position of each hole to part datum? In wood and in aluminum. I'm assuming wood tolerances are usually +/- 0.015" (1/64") I'd like to know what everyone really sees in their machines when they compare CAD drawing to actual part.

  10. #10
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    Quote Originally Posted by JFL4066 View Post
    Thank you everyone for your replies. You proved my suspicions. I'm a mechanical engineer in the automotive industry. Specifically block and head machining lines with 120 4 axis and 5 axis CNC machines. So I'm used to holding contours, holes, surfaces within microns. I also work with skilled trades in the maintenance of these machines.

    Any way, I'm looking to build a 48" x 48" CNC router. I already have a manual vertical mill. From everyone's experience what can I expect from 1. a better than average kit. 2.Sub $5000.00 machine? If I machine a contour like an arc how much variation of the profile will I get on average. If I drill a pattern of holes, how much variation in true position of each hole to part datum? In wood and in aluminum. I'm assuming wood tolerances are usually +/- 0.015" (1/64") I'd like to know what everyone really sees in their machines when they compare CAD drawing to actual part.
    I would suggest the one I have a Fine Line Automation Saturn 2 48x48 and mine will do everything you ask, I do not know about +/- .001 inch but I have never tried. The company has had some delivery and QC issues with some of the machines. Its a welded steel frame with NEMA 34 motors and mine is running on Mach4 just fine. I used the pre-built and wired control system from the company below. Yes it cuts contours and circles just fine. Anything a normal CNC machine is expected to do.

    However the CNC Router Parts Pro line kits are pretty much the same only aluminum extrusions. Same control system if you purchase. One person who you will hear from has issues with the trueness of the extrusion cuts, but the machine is pretty popular regardless and widely used.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  11. #11
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    From everyone's experience what can I expect from 1. a better than average kit. 2.Sub $5000.00 machine?
    Imo, the only "better than average" kit is CNC Router Parts.

    The main difference between cheap machines and more expensive machines is stiffness, rigidity, and power. Generally, a more expensive machine will allow you to make deeper and faster cuts, with a better surface finish.


    If I machine a contour like an arc how much variation of the profile will I get on average. If I drill a pattern of holes, how much variation in true position of each hole to part datum? In wood and in aluminum. I'm assuming wood tolerances are usually +/- 0.015" (1/64")
    I doubt that most people have the ability to actually measure their results. How does one go about measuring the accuracy or deviation of an arc?
    I think in general, almost any machine will be much more accurate than .015". But it all comes down to exactly what you are cutting, and how aggressive you are cutting. If you exceed the machine's capabilities, then the tolerances may be exceeded as well. Note that you can still cut very accurate parts on a flimsy machine, but you may have to pay special attention to stay within the machines abilities.

    There's very little difference if any difference in accuracy between cutting wood and aluminum. Aluminum will just require shallower cut depths in most cases.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  12. #12
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    Say if you nested 20 of the same part, such as a 6" x 6" square with 1/2" rounded corners and a hole drilled at the corner radius center point. Will the features in all 20 parts measure to within +/- 0.002"?, +/- 0.005" of the CAD specs? Assume generally accepted speed and feeds for wood and aluminum.

    In my experience, assembling precision machined/cut parts, especially the size and length of a CNC machine, requires precision setup instruments. A new machine generally requires commissioning from the OEM to "tweak" and adjust for each sub assembly to be square, flat, and true to the required tolerance. Especially after shipping. I see no mention of this when anyone is assembling parts from a kit or built by themselves from scratch. Everyone says to use high precision rails, bearings, etc. But assembly is more critical. When scratch building a base for example, what techniques is the builder using to make sure each corner is square, flat, and in the same horizontal plane. What are the generally accepted tolerances for those?

  13. #13
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    Quote Originally Posted by JFL4066 View Post
    Say if you nested 20 of the same part, such as a 6" x 6" square with 1/2" rounded corners and a hole drilled at the corner radius center point. Will the features in all 20 parts measure to within +/- 0.002"?, +/- 0.005" of the CAD specs? Assume generally accepted speed and feeds for wood and aluminum.

    In my experience, assembling precision machined/cut parts, especially the size and length of a CNC machine, requires precision setup instruments. A new machine generally requires commissioning from the OEM to "tweak" and adjust for each sub assembly to be square, flat, and true to the required tolerance. Especially after shipping. I see no mention of this when anyone is assembling parts from a kit or built by themselves from scratch. Everyone says to use high precision rails, bearings, etc. But assembly is more critical. When scratch building a base for example, what techniques is the builder using to make sure each corner is square, flat, and in the same horizontal plane. What are the generally accepted tolerances for those?
    I would venture to guess that most people running homemade routers don't even have the tools to measure if their parts would meet your specs.

    A little background on myself. I worked as a machinist for years before going back to school and becoming an engineer. Just so you know where I'm coming from.

    I would also say for your specs, ballscrews is your best choice.

    As for your scenario. If you want the best accuracy, you would get that from dual loop feedback using glass scales. Doing this the positioning accuracy would be to whatever the following error limit is set to for the axis in question. This is user defined and would affect things like contouring because the drive can lag/lead up tot he following error limit while in motion. For things like positioning to drill a hole you would get glass scale accuracy because the system will try everything it can to get to the exact programmed position and on a well tuned system it would get there.

    Having said that, you can also get very good positioning accuracy using ground screws. Many hobby machines use rolled screws with +/- 0.004" per foot, which sound like wouldn't fit your needs. In reality the rolled screws are better than this, but that is there allowed error. I'm not sure the specs on ground screws but they are much better and much more $$$. You could "map" the rolled screws which is software compensation for lead errors, but would need a way (glass scale) to map your screws to determine the error first. You would be looking at double ball nuts for this because backlash would need to be eliminated for your specs.

    From there it all comes down to machine rigidity. Profile linear rails and steel subframe are going to be best, but something less can stiil be good if you watch your feeds and speeds.

    Everyone says to use high precision rails, bearings, etc. But assembly is more critical.
    Well this depends on why you are using those components. Profile rails for example will provide more precision, but also more rigidity. Many people likely use these for the rigidity rather than the precision. I may want to make something fast but not requiring tight tolerances, so as long as it rolls smooth and is stiff it is good.

    For you desires, assembly will be somewhat critical but I think you are overanalyzing. A router is a really a pretty simple machine. Level the base checking those 2 rails are both level (Machinist level), make sure your rails are straight and parallel (tight music wire check), Do the same for the gantry, check it for square to the first axis (granite square), repeat for the Z.

  14. #14
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    Quote Originally Posted by JFL4066 View Post
    Say if you nested 20 of the same part, such as a 6" x 6" square with 1/2" rounded corners and a hole drilled at the corner radius center point. Will the features in all 20 parts measure to within +/- 0.002"?, +/- 0.005" of the CAD specs? Assume generally accepted speed and feeds for wood and aluminum.

    In my experience, assembling precision machined/cut parts, especially the size and length of a CNC machine, requires precision setup instruments. A new machine generally requires commissioning from the OEM to "tweak" and adjust for each sub assembly to be square, flat, and true to the required tolerance. Especially after shipping. I see no mention of this when anyone is assembling parts from a kit or built by themselves from scratch. Everyone says to use high precision rails, bearings, etc. But assembly is more critical. When scratch building a base for example, what techniques is the builder using to make sure each corner is square, flat, and in the same horizontal plane. What are the generally accepted tolerances for those?

    I am building my own extrusion-based 4 x 4 CNC. I understand your concerns about assembly and took great pains to assemble mine as precisely as I could

    I'm the guy wmgeorge mentioned who had issues with the extrusions. Virtually all extrusion-based machines in the U.S. use extrusions from 80/20. IMO, 80/20's cut tolerances are less than optimal. For cut at the ends, the tolerance is .002" per inch. So, for a 1.5" x 3" extrusion, you are looking as .003" across the short 1.5" dimension, and .006" across the long 3" dimension. Extend that over a 5'+ extrusions length, and you are going to be way out of square on assembly. 80/20 also has a cut length tolerance of .015". Quite at bit, IMO and makes a precision assembly pretty much impossible. I found that 80/20 doesn't always stay within their published tolerances. Some cuts were off more than .002" per inch. I didn't try to determine whether 80/20 stays within the length tolerance. Since I was milling anyway, it wasn't important to me. My mission was to get everything right.

    I solved the 80/20 tolerance issues with my benchtop mill and an auxiliary support structure. I milled the ends of the extrusions square and milled them for length. Rather than repeat the process, here is a link to my build thread, which is still open and ongoing: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-c...machinist.html

    The CNC Router Parts Pro machines are pretty popular, but unless CNCRP has some special deal with 80/20, or mills the extrusions themselves, (which I doubt), their machines are bound to suffer from the tolerance issues. Most folks apparently don't have a problem with tolerance issues and probably don't even know they exist. I decided to build my own, because I wanted a machine that was as accurate and repeatable as I could make it, and substantially beefier than the usual kit machine.

    Most first time CNC buyers wouldn't know where to start with designing a CNC. I was one of those guys, when I bought my first kit. However, once I saw how it went together, designing my own turned out to be fairly easy. I've had to make modifications on the fly, and have run across some unanticipated issues, like designing hard stops and limit/homing switch/sensor flag placement. I'm not an engineer or a machine designer, so for me, those kinds of issues were inevitable. So far, I haven't encountered any unsolvable problems. Long story short, I wouldn't discount the idea of building your own.

    Keep in mind that extrusion-based machines are never going to be as rigid as a welded steel. However, using larger extrusions, you can make as machine that significantly stiffer than the kits.

    I tried the Fineline Saturn 2, but the one I bought was so badly put together that it wasn't worth the effort to even try to get up and running. Others have reported similar problems, albeit in less detail than I documented. From the best I can tell, the earlier models were fine, but any semblance of QC went away over a relatively short period of time. Needless to say, I cannot recommend the Saturn 2. Here's a link to my experience: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/finel...cnc-posts.html,

    My assembly was accomplished with a precision straight edge, dial indicators and a large precision machinist's level. The whole process proved to be very fussy and time consuming.

    Gary

  15. #15
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    Thanks Gary and 109jb for the replies. I did watch an extensive blog of a guy on the internet that built a very substantial 48" x 96" machine with 3 x 3 steel tubing with welded and machined flanges on the ends for assembly. He then used a tight wire and depth mic system to get the rails within half a thou flat. then he epoxied them in and then dowelled the flange connections. You are only as accurate as what you measure with. Precision ground rails are only as flat and straight as the structure/tubing you are fastening them to. The structure needs to be stronger than the rail so you pull the rail straight and not the other way around.
    Gary, you have experienced exactly what I have seen in other cases with extrusions. Frankly, most people are building machines just so they can watch the router move in 3 directions. LOL. When you are finished with your machine, what kind of tolerances will it be capable of in the 3 axis directions?
    All of the electronics really don't mean anything unless the machine itself is built with precision.
    So my assumption so far, majority of people are building/assembling machines based on the accuracy of the cuts of each piece. They are not assembling the pieces on a known reference surface to ensure the assembled part is flat, straight, and square. No one really knows how repeatable the machines are.

  16. #16
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    They are actually very repeatable, as repeatability is somewhat independent of accuracy.

    Because repeatability is rather easy to attain, as is flatness, for most people, the only requirement is to get it square, which can easily be done by making some test cuts.

    You may be surprised how easy it is to get a machine that's remarkably accurate and consistent. If you need ultra high precision parts, that all need to fit together very well, than a router is probably not the right tool for you. If you need everything to always be within .005" or less, it get's a lot more complicated.
    Gerry

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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  17. #17
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    They are actually very repeatable, as repeatability is somewhat independent of accuracy.

    Because repeatability is rather easy to attain, as is flatness, for most people, the only requirement is to get it square, which can easily be done by making some test cuts.

    You may be surprised how easy it is to get a machine that's remarkably accurate and consistent. If you need ultra high precision parts, that all need to fit together very well, than a router is probably not the right tool for you. If you need everything to always be within .005" or less, it get's a lot more complicated.
    I guess what I'm trying to determine is, what is the acceptable accuracy and consistency everyone is seeing in an 'average' DIY and Kit CNC router. I'm a numbers guy. LOL.

  18. #18
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    Quote Originally Posted by JFL4066 View Post
    Gary, you have experienced exactly what I have seen in other cases with extrusions. Frankly, most people are building machines just so they can watch the router move in 3 directions. LOL. When you are finished with your machine, what kind of tolerances will it be capaIble of in the 3 axis directions?

    To be perfectly honest with you, I don't know what tolerances to expect. CNCRP advertises + /- .005" accuracy or better. Given the care I've taken with my build, I expect to beat the CNCRP accuracy. CNCRP also advertises +/- .002" repeatability. I should get as good or better.

    I explored using epoxy for leveling the profile linear rails and gave up on the idea. Seems that most haven't had much luck with it. I wonder about those who seem satisfied. Was the epoxy truly level, or did they put it down and just call it good. No way to know for sure. IMO, epoxy would be a last resort.

    On the question of the linear rail mounting surface conforming to the linear rail vs the linear rail conforming to the mounting surface, in most cases, it will be the latter. The rails are no so rigid as to cause steel tubing or at least 1.5" X 3" tubing to bend. If we were talking about 1" x 1" extrusions, my answer might be different. However, I am unaware of folks trying to use anything so small, so I don't see it as an issue.

    CNCRP mounts their Y axis rails on the sides, so you have cross brace extrusions to keep the surfaces flat (within the 80/20 cut tolerance constraints). The gantry is an 80mm X 160mm cross section, which is very stiff. A linear rail rail is going to be what does the conforming.

    I mounted my Y axis rails on top, but I used 3" x 3" uprights sandwiched between 3" x 3" Y axis rails, which is very stiff.

    I bought Hiwin rails. I found them to be surprisingly flat and straight. The 25mm rails were very stiff. The 20mm (on the Y axis) were also stiff, but not nearly as stiff as the 25mm.

    Gary


  19. #19
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post

    To be perfectly honest with you, I don't know what tolerances to expect. CNCRP advertises + /- .005" accuracy or better. Given the care I've taken with my build, I expect to beat the CNCRP accuracy. CNCRP also advertises +/- .002" repeatability. I should get as good or better.

    I explored using epoxy for leveling the profile linear rails and gave up on the idea. Seems that most haven't had much luck with it. I wonder about those who seem satisfied. Was the epoxy truly level, or did they put it down and just call it good. No way to know for sure. IMO, epoxy would be a last resort.

    On the question of the linear rail mounting surface conforming to the linear rail vs the linear rail conforming to the mounting surface, in most cases, it will be the latter. The rails are no so rigid as to cause steel tubing or at least 1.5" X 3" tubing to bend. If we were talking about 1" x 1" extrusions, my answer might be different. However, I am unaware of folks trying to use anything so small, so I don't see it as an issue.

    CNCRP mounts their Y axis rails on the sides, so you have cross brace extrusions to keep the surfaces flat (within the 80/20 cut tolerance constraints). The gantry is an 80mm X 160mm cross section, which is very stiff. A linear rail rail is going to be what does the conforming.

    I mounted my Y axis rails on top, but I used 3" x 3" uprights sandwiched between 3" x 3" Y axis rails, which is very stiff.

    I bought Hiwin rails. I found them to be surprisingly flat and straight. The 25mm rails were very stiff. The 20mm (on the Y axis) were also stiff, but not nearly as stiff as the 25mm.

    Gary

    Are you about ready for the first cut Gary? Curious as to how it does.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  20. #20
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    Re: How is everyone building a DIY CNC router system that maintains cutting tolerance

    Quote Originally Posted by JFL4066 View Post
    I guess what I'm trying to determine is, what is the acceptable accuracy and consistency everyone is seeing in an 'average' DIY and Kit CNC router. I'm a numbers guy. LOL.
    What's "acceptable" can vary greatly from person to person. That's why you can buy a machine for $1000, or a similarly sized machine for $10,000.
    Different levels of acceptable.

    Almost 15 years ago, I built a machine from MDF and plywood, that uses skate bearings on pipe for linear bearings. I have no idea how accurate it is? But if I cut multiple parts that need to fit together, they'll all be within .005 of each other. If I cut 10 differerent parts that all need to be 10" long, they'll all be the same size.

    I know it's not perfectly square at the moment, but it doesn't matter for what I currently use it for. I know it won't cut perfectly round holes, but again, they're close enough for what I need.
    Gerry

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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

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