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IndustryArena Forum > Community Club House > Machinist Hangout > Can we make this in the USA?
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
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    2

    Can we make this in the USA?

    Hi Guys -

    We manufacture a flexible arm called Flexwire that is used for the mounting and positioning of various items such as cameras, sensors, tablets, etc. Two of the 3 parts are made in the USA. I'm interested to know if we can make the third part in-house. It is a type 303 stainless steel adapter that we crimp onto the ends, see attached. It has "slot cuts" for holding with a wrench, female 3/8"-24 threads plus a 4mm threaded hole for a set screw.

    https://snakeclamp.com/products/flexwire

    We currently buy these from China with a landed cost of about $2 each. Yes, I know that's cheap.

    So my question is - what all would be involved to manufacture these in-house? Can it be done on a single machine? Can a machine handle the whole process or does it involve a lot of steps with human labor? How much $$$ would we have to invest into equipment, software and training to make this ourselves? Looking for your ideas, expertise and recommendations. Thanks!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails flexwire-bent.jpg  

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    15362

    Re: Can we make this in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by geraldz View Post
    Hi Guys -

    We manufacture a flexible arm called Flexwire that is used for the mounting and positioning of various items such as cameras, sensors, tablets, etc. Two of the 3 parts are made in the USA. I'm interested to know if we can make the third part in-house. It is a type 303 stainless steel adapter that we crimp onto the ends, see attached. It has "slot cuts" for holding with a wrench, female 3/8"-24 threads plus a 4mm threaded hole for a set screw.

    https://snakeclamp.com/products/flexwire

    We currently buy these from China with a landed cost of about $2 each. Yes, I know that's cheap.

    So my question is - what all would be involved to manufacture these in-house? Can it be done on a single machine? Can a machine handle the whole process or does it involve a lot of steps with human labor? How much $$$ would we have to invest into equipment, software and training to make this ourselves? Looking for your ideas, expertise and recommendations. Thanks!


    Sure anything can be manufactured made copied, if the manufacture does not have any protection on the product, but for that price of $2 I don't think so, you most likely would not do it in the USA for anywhere near that price ( 1 ) end would cost more that that to manufacture

    So what you have to look at is the Flex material can you source it in the USA and how much per unit it will cost, then you have to cut it to length, do you already have a CNC lathe and mill to machine the ends and a crimping machine
    Mactec54

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    411

    Re: Can we make this in the USA?

    So, you are talking about just the end portion of the unit? Correct? What is the exact finish requirement? Finally, how many units per month?

    Seems like any estimate would require a quantity.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
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    5717

    Re: Can we make this in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by geraldz View Post
    Can it be done on a single machine?
    Yes it can be done on a single machine. But you are not going to make them in-house for $2 unless your machine time rate is $0. I don't understand how even the Chinese can produce that part for $2 delivered. Just the material is going to be about $1 or so each in the US. We make a part of similar size and complexity in-house for our products, has both turned and milled features, we figure them at $12 each at $150/hr machine time rate. The difference is that our material is 304SS which is an order of magnitude more difficult to machine than 303SS. A machine with more features like a C axis and a sub spindle could cut that cost down a bit. We do a quick (about 30 seconds) secondary operation on a manual lathe.

    Can a machine handle the whole process or does it involve a lot of steps with human labor?
    That is what is known as a Mill/Turn part. You can make that part complete on a CNC lathe with live tooling, a C axis, a Y axis, and a sub spindle. The more sophisticated the machine the less human labor is required. But the more the machine will do, the more it costs, and the setup and programming is more complex.

    How much $$$ would we have to invest into equipment, software and training to make this ourselves? Looking for your ideas, expertise and recommendations. Thanks!
    First concider your production requirements. If you need 10K parts a month then the higher end machine might be what you need. We normally run batches of 200 to 400 parts for a 6 month supply, this might be a two or three day run for a particular part, so we can expend a little extra labor making the parts. Our machines sit idle for at least 6 months out of the year. That's a lot of expensive iron taking up floor space and not generating income but it works for us.

    Here is an example of a machine that would do it all. https://www.ebay.com/itm/CITIZEN-M-3...gAAOSwCqNdc4Ir In this case, once set up, load a bar and press Go. Finished parts start dropping into the part catcher.

    On the lower end, a small CNC lathe, maybe something like a Tormach slant bed, and a small manual milling machine would make the same part. But is more labor intensive with a couple of secondary operations. https://www.tormach.com/15l-slant-pro-lathe/ Sometimes you can find these on the used market. Ebay has a lot of used CNC lathes in every size and price range. A small machine would make your part. We found the 30 year old ''unicorn'' machine on Ebay, drug it home, did a controls upgrade and have less than $20K total into the machine.

    As far as CAD/CAM software Fusion 360 would be my first choice. There is a learning curve but there is a lot of online training and support available. Free to hobbyists, educators, and startups making less than $100K annually. Very reasonable subscription rates for established businesses. There is a free online Fusion 360 and machining training course that is very good https://academy.titansofcnc.com/ Takes you from zero to making parts in a couple of days.

    I hope this helps.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
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    411

    Re: Can we make this in the USA?

    Jim, do you think that the part could be simplified reducing the cost a bit? If you removed the end that covers the black tube so that there were only 2 internal diameters, .295" where the crimp is and the threaded section. This would make it so the part is only turned from one end. Fewer operations on a less complex machine.

    Yes, in house is going to have a huge machine and labor cost that will drive up the per item cost.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
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    5717

    Re: Can we make this in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by maxspongebob View Post
    Jim, do you think that the part could be simplified reducing the cost a bit? If you removed the end that covers the black tube so that there were only 2 internal diameters, .295" where the crimp is and the threaded section. This would make it so the part is only turned from one end. Fewer operations on a less complex machine.

    Yes, in house is going to have a huge machine and labor cost that will drive up the per item cost.
    Yes, that could be done, but it would certainly destroy the finished look of the product. One could put a farrell on the end of the tube, similar to the end of an air hose to finish the end.

    Let's take the case of our parts. The $150/hr machine time rate is an internal accounting trick, and what we charge an external customer for machine time. Pretty much consistent with the local job shop rates in our area. Our actual hourly operating cost is about $5. You can work pretty cheap when you are working for yourself, just my son and I, no employees. We paid cash for all of our equipment and own the property outright, so our fixed monthly overhead is very low. Add in what might be normal overhead for a business, then the machine time rate has to go up.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    230

    Re: Can we make this in the USA?

    If you redesign the part such that instead of making it out of round bar, it's made out of hex bar, you can still grip it with a wrench; but you can eliminate the milling step.

    If you use a jam-nut to lock the threads in place instead of a set-screw you can eliminate the requirement for live tooling (also, you won't be messing up your threads with the set-screw).

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2019
    Posts
    2

    Re: Can we make this in the USA?

    Thanks for all of the replies. We actually call for an Ra 0.4 um (Ra 16 ui) finish but our supplier likes to polish them for us. As far as simplifying the design I'm not interested in that. This is our own design that we developed and it works well and looks great. We also designed our own crimping die and had it made out of tool steel via 3D Hubs. It takes about 20 tons to make the crimp on our 50 ton press.

    Since we just launched this product a few months ago we've only ordered 500 pieces; not sure what our annual usage would be. But I'm encouraged to know that a $69k machine can churn these out, thanks Jim.

    Should we reach a point where it makes sense to do these in house we would invest in the machine so our machine time would be $0 - but I imagine it would still need tool replacements and maintenance?

    Also are there companies or consultants out there that could set up the machine for us, program it and teach us how to use it?

    Would the stock have to be cut to length or would the machine do that from a long rod? And where would be a good source of materials?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
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    5717

    Re: Can we make this in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by geraldz View Post
    But I'm encouraged to know that a $69k machine can churn these out, thanks Jim.
    My pleasure

    Should we reach a point where it makes sense to do these in house we would invest in the machine so our machine time would be $0 - but I imagine it would still need tool replacements and maintenance?
    Your machine time cost can't really be $0, as you say, tooling, power, and maintenance all have a cost. As I said above, my actual machine time cost is about $5/hr in direct costs, depending on how you do your accounting the indirect costs could push this number higher. I do all of my own maintenance, and tooling is what it is. If I had to bring in a tech to perform maintenance/repairs, then the cost would go up. A CNC machine is a wonderful tool right up until something goes wrong and becomes a multi-thousand pound paperweight.

    Also are there companies or consultants out there that could set up the machine for us, program it and teach us how to use it?
    In most areas there are techs who could do that for you, but you may have to fly one in. When I was doing that for a living, I charged $1K/day plus expenses, that may have gone up in the last few years, I retired a few years ago. You would want to decide on the machine then find a tech that is competent on that machine and control.

    Would the stock have to be cut to length or would the machine do that from a long rod? And where would be a good source of materials?
    Normally you would make the parts from bar lengths. Standard is 12 ft lengths. If you have a bar feeder or support you can use the full length. I don't have a bar support system on my lathe, so I cut the 12 ft bar into 48 inch lengths and run that way. This gives me a maximum 6 inches of unsupported material sticking out of the spindle liner, any more stick out and you risk bar whip. Bar whip can do serious damage or kill you. Below is a video of a ''machinist'' who doesn't understand physics.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8ZJa2HSkYE

    I have a bar puller on my machine so automatically feeds the material for the next part. The bar puller is just another tool that goes in the turret. I have one of these https://www.ezpullerusa.com/?page_id=78

    As far as material, check with your local metal vendors. In order to get favorable pricing you have to order in quantity. We normally buy at least 2000 lbs at a time, mixed aluminum and stainless full bar lengths. We get free delivery on orders over $200. There are also online vendors that have some reasonable pricing, but shipping might be expensive.

    In your area BMG Metals, Inc. in Lynchburg might be a good place to start. Phone: 434-528-5000
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    230

    Re: Can we make this in the USA?

    Bar whip can do serious damage or kill you.
    Even if you get lucky and all it does is make a loud noise, it's not very good for the spindle bearings or chuck...

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2019
    Posts
    339

    Re: Can we make this in the USA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    Bar whip can do serious damage or kill you.
    Always wondered why they do not allow machinists to feed the chuck through his ass at the co I work at LOL. Max floating L allowed is the workpiece's OD x8.
    Me think Jim saved a lot of people's machine, or life it could!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    761

    Re: Can we make this in the USA?

    Yes:

    Advance Turning – Leaders in Precision Components

    They make hose fittings for aerospace to ISO/QA standards. Would you trust hose fittings made in China on the jet you are flying on?
    Wayne Hill

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    232

    Re: Can we make this in the USA?

    You could use a sliding head lathe with live tooling on first spindle ( head 1), second spindle with fixed tooling ( head 2) and fixed or live tooling on head 3.

    I use a Maier ML26D, which would do it. However, it looks to me like the part could take up to 2 minutes. I wouldn't do that for $2 each including metal, tooling and setup.

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