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IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Spindles / VFD > Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
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  1. #21
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Not sure how to get inside as yet. Looks like there is no wire going to the ground pin on the terminal so far. I undid some hex bolts on the bottom not sure how it comes apart.

    Attachment 427066

    the hex bolts on the output end don't even clear the rotating parts.

  2. #22
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Never is a wire to the Ground pin #4 Chinese seem to forget. I took the picture into an editing program and lighted it a lot, it looks black but no windings??
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  3. #23
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    A little lost. The windings should be in the motor body correct? This picture is just the connector cap. I'm not sure how to get the motor housing apart. Best I can tell a special tool is needed on the chuck end.

  4. #24
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    Over current or voltage running at 12k rpm drawing 2 amps? I was taking a 1/8” depth of cut using a half inch carbide ball mill at 120 IPM. Would that really overload the spindle cedar wood

  5. #25
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    I stripped a working hy 2.2kw water cooled spindle recently to get a close look. Not something i would buy!

  6. #26
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Quote Originally Posted by justCNCit View Post
    Not sure how to get inside as yet. Looks like there is no wire going to the ground pin on the terminal so far. I undid some hex bolts on the bottom not sure how it comes apart.

    Attachment 427066

    the hex bolts on the output end don't even clear the rotating parts.
    That is normal for these spindles not to have the Ground connected, you are expected to connect it which almost all spindle users check this before they run it, they normally connect it with a ring terminal to where one of the cover mounting screws go, remove a piece of the plastic from the cover to clear the Grounding terminal and you are done

    They are easy to take apart the nut / bolt on the back, it is left hand thread, and yes you need custom made wrenches so you don't damage any of the parts
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ring Terminals Grounding.PNG  
    Mactec54

  7. #27
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    He is confusing EMI with EMF and claiming unshielded wires to the spindle caused this motor to burn out!!!
    No confusion here, that is why they install Braking Resistor to absorb the Back EMF, it would help if you read my posts, I said the spindle most likely was damaged from stalling, wiring was secondary which did not help the health of his spindle
    Mactec54

  8. #28
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Quote Originally Posted by justCNCit View Post
    I don't give a damn about code in this situation.
    You got lucky that you where not touching your machine when it failed, or you could of been electrocuted, that is why they have electrical codes

    Quote Originally Posted by justCNCit View Post
    I think I'm screwed because that's what I sent to the manufacturer for warranty purposes.
    There is no warranty with any of these spindles, in most cases they ask you to send it back which will cost you more than buying a new spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by justCNCit View Post
    What options might be next
    Buy a New Spindle, you VFD Drive may be damaged also
    Mactec54

  9. #29
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    No confusion here, that is why they install Braking Resistor to absorb the Back EMF, it would help if you read my posts, I said the spindle most likely was damaged from stalling, wiring was secondary which did not help the health of his spindle
    Braking resistors are used.... well they are only used when braking. Not back EMF and we were talking about EMI? FYI and others .... just one reference. https://www.fortressresistors.com/pr...ing-resistors/

    This is also to educate about EMI > https://kebblog.com/electromagnetic-interference-vfds/


    By the way I agree with Mac, your screwed. Buy a new one from a USA vender and get a new VFD they recommend as a package deal. Or I have used Automation Tech for the the spindle motor and purchased a Japanese Hitachi drive from a USA vender. I got two instruction manuals with the drive (and DVD) and a 800 number to call If I had questions. Sure it cost maybe $100 or so more than the Chinese made ones or a knock off of a good Chinese drive.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  10. #30
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    [SIZE=4] Braking resistors are used.... well they are only used when braking. Not back EMF and we were talking about EMI? FYI and others .... just one reference. https://www.fortressresistors.com/pr...ing-resistors/
    Only EMI since when, you need to know and see the whole picture not just one part of it

    None of the information you posted applies to a 400Hz spindle they only know what works for a 50 /60Hz motor, you are in a different place when you start dealing with a 400Hz 24,000 RPM spindle the back EMF if the drive DC bus capacitors can't handle it they are smoked, if the DC bus capacitors have a over voltage sensor then it blocks the over voltage then makes IGBTs fail

    Breaking Resistors are used to absorb this Back EMF and protect the VFD Drive

    Over Voltage VFD Drive Fault is caused by Back EMF you see these Drive Faults posted on here all the time
    Mactec54

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Only EMI since when, you need to know and see the whole picture not just one part of it

    None of the information you posted applies to a 400Hz spindle they only know what works for a 50 /60Hz motor, you are in a different place when you start dealing with a 400Hz 24,000 RPM spindle the back EMF if the drive DC bus capacitors can't handle it they are smoked, if the DC bus capacitors have a over voltage sensor then it blocks the over voltage then makes IGBTs fail

    Breaking Resistors are used to absorb this Back EMF and protect the VFD Drive

    Over Voltage VFD Drive Fault is caused by Back EMF you see these Drive Faults posted on here all the time
    Your answers are typical for you, made up. The viewers here can do their own search for EMI and back EMF and get the truth. Braking resistors are only used when stopping the motor.
    So your contending that a un-shielded supply power cord from the VFD to the Spindle motor caused the motor to fail?

  12. #32
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    Why would it have shown continuity between ground and the other poles if disconnected ground. Will check tonight

  13. #33
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Quote Originally Posted by justCNCit View Post
    Why would it have shown continuity between ground and the other poles if disconnected ground. Will check tonight
    Since your ground pin is not hooked up to the metal on the frame I don't understand. If you get any reading to motor frame ground from a winding its bad. Winding to winding should read the same, pretty low 1 or 2 ohms.
    No reading from winding to winding= bad. Your not touching the meter leads with your fingers are you?
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  14. #34
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Your answers are typical for you, made up. The viewers here can do their own search for EMI and back EMF and get the truth. Braking resistors are only used when stopping the motor.
    So your contending that a un-shielded supply power cord from the VFD to the Spindle motor caused the motor to fail?
    That is what you are saying it is not what I said

    What is happening when a Breaking Resistor is installed, please tell everyone your uneducated guess

    Electromotive force (EMF) refers to the voltage generated by a spinning motor. Measuring this voltage in order to determine the rotational speed of a motor is commonly called Back-EMF since the voltage tends to "push-back" against the circuit driving current into a motor's windings.
    Mactec54

  15. #35
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Quote Originally Posted by justCNCit View Post
    Why would it have shown continuity between ground and the other poles if disconnected ground. Will check tonight
    It means you have a short somewhere

    When you test you should check like this, when checking for a shorted Pin check to the body of the spindle not the unconnected 4th Ground Pin

    Pin 1 to Pin 2=

    Pin 2 to Pin 3=

    Pin 3 to Pin 1=

    Then check all to Ground the spindle body

    IF you have a short to Pin 4 then you have a wiring problem in the plug, or the plug is damaged

    This is the most basic of tests to do but will give an idea of what is happening
    Mactec54

  16. #36
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    That is what you are saying it is not what I said

    What is happening when a Breaking Resistor is installed, please tell everyone your uneducated guess

    Electromotive force (EMF) refers to the voltage generated by a spinning motor. Measuring this voltage in order to determine the rotational speed of a motor is commonly called Back-EMF since the voltage tends to "push-back" against the circuit driving current into a motor's windings.
    Back EMF reduces the voltage and therefore current in the motor windings. A motor has coils turning inside magnetic fields, and a coil turning inside a magnetic field induces an emf. This emf, known as the back emf, acts against the applied voltage that's causing the motor to spin in the first place, and reduces the current flowing through the coils of the motor. Since it reduces current flow, how can it burn the motor out??

    Once again a Braking resistor on a VFD can NOT be in the circuit when the motor is running, its impossible! Only used when stopping the motor. This applies for all VFD's not just 50/60 Hz but all! When is Dynamic Braking Resistor used in VFD?

    I am sure the readers here can figure this all out with a few simple Searches. Try https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  17. #37
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    [SIZE=4]Back EMF reduces the voltage and therefore current in the motor windings. A motor has coils turning inside magnetic fields, and a coil turning inside a magnetic field induces an emf. This emf, known as the back emf, acts against the applied voltage that's causing the motor to spin in the first place, and reduces the current flowing through the coils of the motor. Since it reduces current flow, how can it burn the motor out??
    The first part that you where able to copy from some where that is correct, the below video will help you understand what happens when a motor stalls and has no Back EMF, this is what burns out motors

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    Once again a Braking resistor on a VFD can NOT be in the circuit when the motor is running
    No one said it was

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I am sure the readers here can figure this all out with a few simple Searches.
    Yes I'm sure they can, some will already know this from there highschool physics on motor operation

    Very basic Highschool Physics here is a video just for you, this demonstrates what happens when a motor stalls and why it fails :wave:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=5mf4NmmLWnE
    Mactec54

  18. #38
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Quote Originally Posted by justCNCit View Post
    Why would it have shown continuity between ground and the other poles if disconnected ground. Will check tonight
    I hope you where able to check your motor, I would do the check from the back side of the plug, I had a thought that seeing you where getting some odd reading the motor may not be damaged, and it could be just the wiring of the plug that is the problem as others have had this problem as well with plug wiring being faulty, and the plugs in general being bad so worth a good look at
    Mactec54

  19. #39
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    The first part that you where able to copy from some where that is correct, the below video will help you understand what happens when a motor stalls and has no Back EMF, this is what burns out motors
    No one said it was, but see my post #27 above for details on what I posted.
    mactec54 posted on #27 No confusion here, that is why they install Braking Resistor to absorb the Back EMF

    Mac I am done posting on this Thread, you change the Subject to get attention away from your mistakes. The Readers here on CNC Zone can sort it out if they read the info and links I have put up and ignore your errors. Even this might help you understand > https://forums.mikeholt.com/forum/ac...stor-operation
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  20. #40
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    Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    mactec54 posted on #27 No confusion here, that is why they install Braking Resistor to absorb the Back EMF

    Mac I am done posting on this Thread, you change the Subject to get attention away from your mistakes. The Readers here on CNC Zone can sort it out if they read the info and links I have put up and ignore your errors.
    No mistakes with what I posted, the Highschool Physics video tells you the same thing

    What I posted is correct, when a motor is running normally and you have a Braking Resistor installed the first voltage it will see is Back EMF with any sudden change in speed, so you have no understanding of how it works (wedge),

    A Braking Resistor is not only to help stop a motor fast, but to protect the VFD Drive from over Voltage spikes with normal running, ( decelerating or a stall Etc.) The Back-EMF from the Motor is being monitored by the VFD all the time
    Mactec54

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