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IndustryArena Forum > CAM Software > Autodesk CAM > F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?
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  1. #1
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    F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    Hi all

    Whilst Fusion 360 has continually impressed me with the quality of its toolpaths and just how easy they are to create, its support for 4th axis continuous machining has left me either confused, disappointed or both. As far as I've been able to find, it will let us wrap 2D toolpaths around a cylinder centred on the axis but that's about it.

    Here's a a couple of typical ops I'd like to perform but that I can't work out how to set up and I'm hoping someone out there is going to reply with "Idiot: it's easy, just select strategy X and enable option Y."

    1. "surface" a cylindrical face which is not concentric with the 4th axis. For example, if I want a piece of flat bar stock which has a slight belly on one side. At the moment I am stuck with indexing the 4th to set that face upward then doing a 3D path. I'd kinda like to get that 4th axis live for this operation to keep the tool tip normal to the model surface. Easy with the swarf op if you have a 5A machine, but nothing for "just 4th"?

    2. Spiral cut around a form. Using the tip of the tool, again normal to the model surface, I'd like to be able to start at one end of the workpiece and spiral up to the other, cutting the outside of a smooth model. Sort of like a contour strategy wrapped around the part.

    Am I thinking about all this the wrong way? Or have I missed something simple and obvious for doing it? Or have Autodesk just not implemented 4A support?

    Thanks in anticipation of any help!

  2. #2
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    Apr 2004
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    5728

    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    If you can't get Fusion to do it, try DeskProto,
    Andrew Werby
    Website

  3. #3
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    339

    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    How savvy are you with programming, dharmic? Another question is how flexible/limited is this F360 PP modification?
    I could be wrong but I think F360 uses C (jscript) to output it gcode. Meaning you could unwrap a surface (sure F360 has this command?), create a 3D toolpath on that, and get that to wrap back onto a OD 'via code' during post processing.
    You'd lose the simulation and all, a whole lot of work & testing too, but your gcode would output what you want.

    Not exactly The Solution for a one-off part but if you mainly 4ax then I'd look at PP mods (if allowed, obviously)

  4. #4
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    Hey Mecanix. I'm savvy enough to have cobbled together my own post for Mach3 with 4th and some probing routines. A while ago so it's fuzzy now but I seem to remember it's in javascript.

    I think it'd make life harder - trying to map where on the flat surface various things belong on a non-cylindrical wrap seems like a recipe for pain.

    After a half a day exploring yesterday, I think there might be some promise in the Flow strategy which I'll try today. Otherwise I foresee a bunch of sketch offsets turning into a toolpath just to get this job done

  5. #5
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    I've done the 3D surface contour (re)warp onto 4ax in C# (nxopen), works okay other than the overhead processing time. Method/vectors/rad could easily be converted to fit in Jscript too I'm sure so let me know if you see an entry in the PP where that could done. I'll see if I can give you a hand with that.

    Wish I knew F360... all mysteries to me :/

  6. #6
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    Thanks, Mecanix - that's a very kind offer.

    But, to my mind, the post should be nothing more than a translator from CL to machine specific code. Putting smarts in there where it can't be tested easily sounds like a trap for future dharmic who has forgotten whatever cleverness I might do today.

    I'll keep playing with a combination of adaptive clearing and the Flow tool. The big trick here is in trying to minimise torque on my 4th which is just a gutless little stepper on a 3:1 or similar belt.

  7. #7
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    Quote Originally Posted by dharmic View Post
    But, to my mind, the post should be nothing more than a translator from CL to machine specific code.
    I rarely heard of any package translating correctly out-of-the-box, pretty standard unfortunately. Whether that's intentional, who knows, although many claims it is i.e. they wouldn't sell as many 5ax licenses and/or custom PP if we could do full sync 3D on 4ax with only a few clicks :/

    Obviously unhelpful and depressing^. Sure someone with hands-on exp will chime in soon.

  8. #8
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    35538

    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    I thought that you could already do wrapping with Fusion 360?


    But wrapping is far from ideal in many situations.


    And as far as I know, Fusion still does not have full rotary axis support. Which is strange, because it can do 5 axis.
    https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusio.../idi-p/8678700
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  9. #9
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    Gerry, "wrap" is available only for a couple of 2d strategies and it only allows wrapping onto a convex cylindrical form. As soon as the form is non-cylindrical (or, as on one of my ops, on a concave cylindrical face) you're hosed.

    Yeah, the more I look into it the more I see other people b1tching about the lack of support and at least a year's worth of teasing from Autodesk hinting that it's "coming soon".

    With Flow I can be careful about my U/V selection and it kind of works but it's a finishing-only strategy. I'm probably going to end up building an envelope with a decagonal(?, ten sides anyway) profile and do a bunch of adaptive (trochoidal / hsm) hogging paths around the part to restrict how far off-axis any of them get - just trying to keep the torque under control. Then finish off with the Flow strategy. Or something.

    Side note. Despite it costing a billionty times as much, I now remember having the same issues with Creo's CAM package - 3 axis no worries, 5 axis no worries, 4 axis continuous was basically "Yeah draw some lines and tell the tool tip to follow them". Some real deja vu going on right here. Major difference is that F360 is infinitely cheaper and just as infinitely easier / saner to drive in the stuff it does support.

  10. #10
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    Quote Originally Posted by dharmic View Post
    Gerry, "wrap" is available only for a couple of 2d strategies and it only allows wrapping onto a convex cylindrical form. As soon as the form is non-cylindrical (or, as on one of my ops, on a concave cylindrical face) you're hosed.

    Yeah, the more I look into it the more I see other people b1tching about the lack of support and at least a year's worth of teasing from Autodesk hinting that it's "coming soon"..
    I think you need to understand more how fusion works... which is on SOLIDs and not MESHes. So as long as you have a face or edge on a cylinder you can machine it. Both the examples you gave can be easily achieved.

    But in the case of wrapping, you flatten a mesh. Fusion has no way of machining meshes. If you really wanted to wrap on fusion you would need to convert the mesh to nurbs and machine the model as a whole.

  11. #11
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    And as far as I know, Fusion still does not have full rotary axis support. Which is strange, because it can do 5 axis.
    https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusio.../idi-p/8678700
    Fusion 360 has full 4th indexing (positional) support, 3 + 2 5th axis (positional) support and 5th axis simultaneous support.

    Re wrapping, it doesn't make sense to wrap on fusion as per my other post, fusion is not a mesh based program.

  12. #12
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    Thanks, FastFarmer. I certainly do need to understand more how fusion works... which was kinda the point of this thread.

    BTW: Fusion does offer a wrap function without needing to even think about meshes, allowing 2d ops on convex cylindrical wraps. What it doesn't allow is for that wrap to happen on non-cylindrical forms. No help to me.

    I don't want to wrap. I want to do continual 4th on the face(s) of a non-cylindrical form.

    Not offered by Fusion currently, being teased and hinted at coming though.

    In the meantime, my strategy of hogging using 3D Adaptives around 8 indexed containment areas then finishing off with carefully constrained flow ops is simulating well. Will try and throw it on the machine tomorrow and see how she chooches.

  13. #13
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    Quote Originally Posted by dharmic View Post
    I don't want to wrap. I want to do continual 4th on the face(s) of a non-cylindrical form.

    In the meantime, my strategy of hogging using 3D Adaptives around 8 indexed containment areas then finishing off with carefully constrained flow ops is simulating well. Will try and throw it on the machine tomorrow and see how she chooches.
    This is the correct method. When you post and run on the machine, it will be continuous and in 3D. Just make sure for each index your setup origin is in the correct position/direction. If you need, use a sketch to do this ;-)

    Your 2D "wrap" works because its a line or face on a plane... it's not a 3D wrap, simply a 2d flatten.

  14. #14
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    lol... now this subject is on my mind dharmic!
    Wanted to also add, although wrapping may sound convenient it's often not. The main issue is in 3d wrapping an axis (typically Y) is substituted with A. In other words the machine still operates in a 3 axis manner. So for example if you wanted to machine a flat face on your cylinder, it's pretty well impossible. Positional indexing allows this and complex shapes. It uses all 4 axis, so although it requires more CAM work, it's absolutely the way to go.

    Hopefully this helps. Cheers

  15. #15
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    That's not "continuous" 4th axis machining though. It's a lot of 3a operations done on an indexer.

    Meh, it'll get me through until Autodesk release real 4A support on 360.

    Cheers

  16. #16
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    And yeah, I've played with the wrapping stuff before - it can be enormously helpful in some cases, keeping torque loads on the 4th nice and low by primarily working in close to the axis. And a lot of 4A useful operations can be done with cylinder wrapping.

    Just not what I want in a lot of cases and I made the flawed assumption that, if they had continuous 5A support, 4A would be kind of a gimme in the bundle.

    We live and we learn

  17. #17
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    Well... if your processor supports it, then there's no reason why you cant set up a dummy 5 axis and as long as you program your tool position square to the face, form a continuous 4th axis machine wrap.
    Might even have to try that myself... lol

  18. #18
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    Quote Originally Posted by dharmic View Post
    We live and we learn
    +1
    Tempted to dwload and give that F360 a first-time tryout. When I'm out of project I'll do that... let's hack that post for 3D cylindrical projection. Surprised nobody did it yet... math/formulas is all public domain stuff

  19. #19
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mecanix View Post
    +1
    Tempted to dwload and give that F360 a first-time tryout. When I'm out of project I'll do that... let's hack that post for 3D cylindrical projection. Surprised nobody did it yet... math/formulas is all public domain stuff
    Dislike 360 Design but 360 CAM is unbeatable... so get on board!!

    It hasn't been done because as I have tried to explain, Fusion works on faces, not mesh models. Even when 5 axis simultaneous machining. you are still machining the surface of a face of a SOLID... not the model or mesh, and you (the human programmer) must consider things such as tool position, angle to the surface, and collision... for that particular face..

    But I wouldn't want to see it go any further towards AI in 360, and legally I think it would move liability to the software which would be a bad thing. If I want to wrap a model, I use Vetric which does a great job at it.

  20. #20
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    Re: F360 - spiral toolpath on 4th axis?

    Familiar with the cad topological data i.e. curves, vertices or faces (brep). Mesh (polygons) not so much though :/
    If the software allows for unwrapping of a surface then you simply need to machine this surface normal to Z with a zig zag pattern and wrap back those points it outputs to the PP via code. To my 'limited' knowledge F360's PP is C powered so it can't be that complicated to code. Bet its been done by a few already, they are just not telling us ;-)

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