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IndustryArena Forum > Community Club House > International / Regional Forums > Australia, New Zealand Club House > Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand
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  1. #41
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    @zorbit
    Very nice! A close-up of the bits would be lovely too.
    Very interested in your experiences doing your machining.

    Cheers
    Roger

  2. #42
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    @zorbit
    Very nice! A close-up of the bits would be lovely too.
    Very interested in your experiences doing your machining.

    Cheers
    Roger
    Thanks Roger and Peter.

    You can see more on the website https://teifiharps.com/harp-sound/

    I make the harps on 3 cnc machines: a 9 axis Maier ML26 swiss lathe, three axis Bridgeport V1000/22, and a 5 axis Morbidelli router. I make over 320 parts for each harp - with 34-36 strings the numbers soon add up. Tuning pins are 303 stainless or Ti6Al4V G5 titanium, bridge pins and soundboard eyelets are CZ121 brass or 303 Stainless, ally parts are 6061, black plastic parts are Delrin, low-friction surfaces PTFE. Necks and columns are Walnut, Ash, Cherry or Beech in hardwood or Beech ply on student harps. Soundboxes are a composite.

    We sub-contract the anodizing and buy in strings, O rings, screws and hardened pins. Everything else is in-house, the swiss lathe is very productive - it has a bar feeder so I load it up and leave it running overnight on brass and stainless jobs, titanium is too unpredictable to leave unattended - the lathe doesn't have a tool breakage sensor and it would be far too easy to turn ten bars of Ti into swarf and scrap. The Morbidelli is a beast, 15hp spindle, HSK63 tooling, but repeatable to 0.02mm and has a 3.2 metre bed. Italian temperament. Bridgeport is ordinary but the most reliable.

    This year I'm designing a new model made from composite materials, so have been watching PeteEng's posts with interest.

  3. #43
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Very nice indeed. Beats the hell out of electronic music!

    Cheers
    Roger

  4. #44
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    Sep 2006
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    6463

    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Hmmmmm……... I might get one of those when I go on my way to Heaven, but I expect I'll just have to settle for an MP3 player......electronic music by the right group is my way.
    Ian.

  5. #45
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    @Ian - can you play a harp, or would you just produce a hellish discord (sorry about the pun).

    Cheers
    Roger

  6. #46
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    Aug 2014
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    I'm hoping that Heaven has the same immigration policy as Australia - if you have a skill that's needed you can get in.....

  7. #47
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Unless you are coming from China these days. A quarantine barrier has been erected in the last few days. Other countries are doing this too, or will have to, as the 10 day incubation period plays merry hell with the usual border testing.

    One medical expert has suggested today that the corona virus could affect up to 60% of the world if hard barriers are not implemented immediately. Global supply chains are also being affected as China did a lot of the world's basic manufacturing. Yes, they produce a lot of titanium.

    Not, mind you, that the virus has anything to do with machining titanium. Sorry about the drift.

    Cheers

  8. #48
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Well I for one am going to make sure that the insides of any packages I receive that come from China are fumigated with cat flea compound.....if it kills fleas it will kill anything.

    I don't think the insides of a China import package are toxic, but you never can tell.....the customs will fumigate the outsides on entry but what lurks inside.

    I haven't genned up on the life cycle of the virus or if it can remain alive but dormant outside of a body......I just don't want to be a candidate for a harp orchestra in the never never land beyond.

    Some questions about Ti that I haven't been able to find the answers to...…...can it be soft soldered......or silver soldered?

    What is the friction ability of Ti when you have two similar surface rubbing together with lube...….like cast iron on cast iron etc.

    How does Ti compare to other metals in the expansion range with applied heat?

    Can a rivet be made from Ti…...it has to be crushable either cold or hot?

    Can it be heat treated to increase the hardness or annealed etc.

    What is the tensile strength of Ti…..in alloy form that is.
    Ian.

  9. #49
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    .can it be soft soldered......or silver soldered?
    The Tioxide layer is far more tenacious that for many other metals.You would need an extremely aggressive flux, and probably an oxygen-free atmosphere. In general it is not done.

    What is the friction ability of Ti when you have two similar surface rubbing together with lube
    Don't know. It would depend on the alloy I think. You would actually be rubbing very hard oxide surfaces against each other.

    How does Ti compare to other metals in the expansion range with applied heat?
    Significantly lower than Al. I had a problem there at one stage. Check the web for values.

    Can a rivet be made from Ti…...it has to be crushable either cold or hot?
    Yes. You would use 'pure' CP Ti for this. If you want to rivet at red heat, any alloy.

    Can it be heat treated to increase the hardness or annealed etc.
    Heating most alloys will harden them. There is a phase change. That is the problem when machining.

    What is the tensile strength of Ti…..in alloy form that is.
    It is strong, depending on the alloy. Check the web for details.
    Above a certain temperature some alloys (eg 6Al4V) enter the 'plastic flow' regime, where it become VERY malleable. That is how I make bends.
    Attachment 436486
    Here I am forming a lip on some Ti angle which I made from Ti sheet. The angle and especially the lip end up very strong. But doing it does take some gas and some effort with a hammer.

    Cheers
    Roger

  10. #50
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Hi Zorbit - Start a composite instrument thread. I'm really happy to help with this. More info? are you hand laying, infusion or prepreg? carbon I expect though glass is good as it matches timber modulus better etc etc... Peter

  11. #51
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Hi Ian - yes Ti is soft / silver soldered and its usually done in argon or vacuum ovens. Most of the Ti eyewear is soldered. Use hydroflouric acid to clean prior. Look for stainless steel cleaner or aluminium cleaner with HF in it. You could try high silver content solder so temp is low and use silver solder flux as this is HF. I had thought about trying this when I built some Ti bike frames a long time ago but I had tig so didn't bother at the time. I'm sure the local soldering rep can help with the details... call kappalloy

    Expansion co-efficient in relative terms is 8-9 Al is 26 steel is 15 and SS is about 10 so similiar to SS. You can buy commercial Ti rivets usually CP grade, Ti alloys have similar alpha and beta phases to alloy steel so similar heat treats are used. Can get alloys from soft CP 150Mpa thru to over 2000Mpa. And some alloys can be aged as well like PH17-4 used for springs. So like aging aluminium you get it in normal condition machine it bend it etc then age to full hard. Forming Ti alloys is interesting due to low modulus so it has high springback.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloy

    Tribological properties are poor as it will gall once the oxide layer is scrapped like SS and Al can . A scrapped surface is quite pure and they will weld together quite easily. Cheers Peter

  12. #52
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi Zorbit - Start a composite instrument thread. I'm really happy to help with this. More info? are you hand laying, infusion or prepreg? carbon I expect though glass is good as it matches timber modulus better etc etc... Peter
    I'll do that when I'm further along with the design, many thanks for the offer, it's much appreciated.

    Ian, one of the advantages of Ti is the ease of anodizing it. With the most basic of equipment you can add a whole range of colours, reduce the friction and increase wear resistance considerably. When I first started experimenting with anodizing I found some US Army info about treating muzzle brakes on machine guns - simple anodizing increased service life 20 times.

  13. #53
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Wow, thank you all for the info.....this is a very interesting alloy......I can understand why the Americans failed with Titanium on their look alike Concorde supersonic airliner when the race was on.

    With the intense springback property of Ti I would think it would make a very good bow on a crossbow and the lightness would be very acceptable in that aspect.

    Based on the answers and gleaning Wickipedia for info I think I must compile a list of properties in case I "invent" something of interest that might have Earth shattering possibilities...….you never can tell what goes on deep down in the dungeon in the wee hours after midnight, that's when I'm most active...…..and I'm leaning to Steampunk for ideas too.

    Talking of Steampunk...……...how would a Ti gear perform mated with another Ti gear.....and due to the tenacious material characteristics of Ti with cutting tool life could you EDM spark erode or wire erode it to form a shape.....it is electrically conductive to a degree.

    One thing I would treasure on my lathe and that is a set of Ti handles for the slides etc.....no rusting from hand sweat and they will always be shiny especially the dials.

    I forgot to ask....can it be attached to a magnet or is it totally inert like 316 stainless?
    Ian.

  14. #54
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorbit View Post
    I'll do that when I'm further along with the design, many thanks for the offer, it's much appreciated.

    Ian, one of the advantages of Ti is the ease of anodizing it. With the most basic of equipment you can add a whole range of colours, reduce the friction and increase wear resistance considerably. When I first started experimenting with anodizing I found some US Army info about treating muzzle brakes on machine guns - simple anodizing increased service life 20 times.
    Hmmmmm….anodizing for wear resistance...….does this mean that 2 sliding surfaces with an anodized coating....and suitablly lubricated.... will have almost infinite wear resistance compared to say a ground steel shaft in a bronze bore?

    At the same time, if a block of Ti had an anodized surface and slid dry on a cast iron surface like a height gauge on a surface plate would the wear resistance be enhanced or is there a drawback in that aspect......I'm thinking also of a lathe bed sliding ways too......anodized Ti on cast iron but in that aspect there would be lubrication.

    One interesting aspect I have thought about...…...if Ti is tough and does not gall when rubbed dry on a hardened and ground or polished steel surface, could it be so used as a surface sliding component where lubrication is not possible or desirable?
    Ian.

  15. #55
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    You can nitride Ti alloys, for extreme hardness and wear resistance, plus low friction, but this is an expensive process. I wouldn't recommend Ti for general workshop or tool use.

  16. #56
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    I suppose the main attributes that make it so desirable are it's toughness with lightness and also it's corrosion resistance.

    To get a full comparison that made sense at a glance I think an Excell spreadsheet would do the trick.

    I would place the different materials for comparison across the top columns and the characteristics down the left side then fill in the boxes across the sheet with a value for that particular factor.

    So at a glance you can see what Ti is like for a shear factor compared to stainless, brass copper etc etc...….I'm a visual person and understand things as a visual display...…...don't tell me, show me etc.

    When I started my apprenticeship my journeyman told me, "If you remember that mild steel has a tensile strength of 26 tons per square inch you will be able to relate that to the strength of materials in any component you wish to make"...……....with that rule of thumb at least all the steel brackets I bent up and welded didn't fall of the wall.
    Ian.

  17. #57
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Hi Ian - for wear surfaces its cheaper to have objects coated with TiN then having the entire part be made of Ti. There are many places that can do this. The gold coated drills for instance are TiN. There are many ceramic coatings possible using vapour deposition. I've had many tools TiN coated and shafts coated for wear resistance.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_vapor_deposition

    https://www.suttontools.com/services...ices/coatings/

    Peter

  18. #58
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Yes, I can understand that.....Titanium Nitride is a tough coating as opposed to just plain Titanium.......this would be the same parallel as aluminium..... light as a feather and soft as toffee but the oxide is extremely hard wearing.......on that basis I wonder if you could get Titanium Nitride grinding wheels or doesn't it work that way?
    Ian.

  19. #59
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Very different things.
    Al oxide forms crystals, very hard crystals, which can be glued or sintered together to make AlOx grinding wheels. TiN does not make crystals like that. Instead TiN forms (very fine) thin layers by vapour deposition, and these are very wear-resistant.

    However, you can buy Cubic Boron Nitride grinding wheels which have been coated with TiN. The effect is similar to what you get with TiN-coated drill bits: improved wear. Not very common though.

    Cheers
    Roger

  20. #60
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    Re: Calling all Titanium grade 5 machinists in Australia and New Zealand

    Speaking of aluminium ceramics my favorite is ALON. Transparent aluminium if your a Trekkie. And it has a massive E=334GPa and quite dense. Love to make machines out of it. Peter

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxynitride

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