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IndustryArena Forum > WoodWorking Machines > DIY CNC Router Table Machines > Avid CNC > AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)
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  1. #1
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    Nov 2019
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    AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Quick Question for those in the know. Looking at getting the AVID CNC PRO 48x48 with the Nema 34 Option, Spindle, Etc...

    Looking at about 11,000 for the machine. I am about 90% sold on the machine. I also like if I grow I can convert to 48x96 easily.

    Anyhow prior to finding AVID I was pretty set on a Camaster. The Stinger 1 24x48 is 8K base price, then by the time you add the spindle, laser and a few other options you are at 10-11k and still have a benchtop machine that's 24x48

    Step up to the Stinger II and you can get a 36x48 which base starts at 12k so you are at least at 15k with the options.

    At the end of the day my only hangup is Mach 4 - I know Camaster uses WinCNC and that appears to be a much better controller.

    I come from running some HAAS CNC machines and Takisawa Lathes. I know both the HAAS control and Fanuc G-Code.

    I plan to design in Fusion 360 and create my post from there as well.

    Ay thoughts of opinions? This will be in my home shop and used for a side business. Basically routing custom inlay cutting boards, Realtor gifts, some furniture and other misc items as I get more creative. I would rather make the deep initial investment in a machine that can do more than I need it to, until the time comes I need that

    Any thoughts on my ramblings? I'm just concerned about Mach 4 really.

  2. #2
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    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    I wouldn't worry about it, as Avid will provide excellent support for it.
    There are probably well over 100,000 Mach3 users, and anyone that's used both will tell you that Mach4 is much better.
    Mach4 was based on Fanuc code, so you shouldn't have any issues with it.

    And keep in mind that WinCNC is about $2000-$3000, depending on options. Mach4 is $200, plus another $200 for the ESS that Avid uses with it. So that's part of the price difference between the Camaster and AvidCNC.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  3. #3
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    Nov 2019
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    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    I wouldn't worry about it, as Avid will provide excellent support for it.
    There are probably well over 100,000 Mach3 users, and anyone that's used both will tell you that Mach4 is much better.
    Mach4 was based on Fanuc code, so you shouldn't have any issues with it.

    And keep in mind that WinCNC is about $2000-$3000, depending on options. Mach4 is $200, plus another $200 for the ESS that Avid uses with it. So that's part of the price difference between the Camaster and AvidCNC.
    Thanks for the info. As you know Post Processors can do weird things at times, so it's nice to know some G-Code to make quick line edits. I had read online that the cut path was far superior on both WinCNC and UCCNC - Can find quite a bit of Mach 3 info, not so much on Mach 4

    Will definitely be challenging going from full on CNC mills and Lathes to a CNC Router. Hopefully less headache as well with a simple controller.

    I think this setup will do more than I need......overall I think it's a better TOTAL package than Camaster Stinger and ShopSabre those are both great machines, just cant justify the price to get my 4x4 and still have to upgrade to a spindle. With the Avid setup I can get the larger steppers, spindle and the 4x4 table for a fair price.

  4. #4
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    Apr 2016
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    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    I'm an ex Mach3 and current Mach4 user. The difference between Mach3 and 4 is night an day. I use both Fusion 360 and Vectric Aspire for my CAD/CAM. If you are up to speed on Fusion, your golden. If not, you have a learning curve ahead of you. I haven't checked lately to see if Fusion has added a Mach4 post. Lately, I've been using Aspire. If not, use the Mach3 post. it works fine.

    For the kind of work you describe, a Vectric product (V-Carve Pro, or Aspire) may be a better bet than Fusion (even though Fusion is free for the hobby version). Fusion is great for a lot of things, but not great for V-carve - at least it wasn't last time I tried. Sign work (V-carve, raised letters, artwork, etc) is where Vectric really shines. There's a learning curve, but not too steep. Many great tutorial videos online. Vectric is also good for inlay work, which is something you mentioned.

    If you decide to go with Vectric, Aspire's claim to fame is 3d work. V-carve Pro will import one 3d image, and that's it. Aspire allow importation of multiple images, and allows you to create 3d images for carving. Also, Aspire comes with a whole lot of 3d artwork, which is nice. You can download trials of both. They are fully functional, except you cannot download the cut files.

    Since you mentioned furniture, I suggest you consider a program called JointCam. It is designed to cut dovetails, box joints, and mortises and tenons. To use it on an Avid 4 x 4, you will need to modify your build by setting the front rail back a few inches to allow you to cut vertically off the front end of the machine, or you will need to cut a hole in the spoilboard. The set back is no big thing, except you reduce your Y axis cut envelope by the amount of your setback. Cutting off the front is a whole lot easier. Look at ger21's post above, He is the designer and has a link to it at the bottom of his post.

    My 4 x 4 is of my own design, but I am using the same steppers (NEMA 34) and the Z axis they sell. They are very nice.

    Here are photos of the jig I built for dovetails, etc I built for my machine. I can cut from both the left and right sides. It's a takeoff from the Leigh D4R Pro.





    Finally, here is a link to my build thread. It contains useful information about building with 80/20 extrusions, including all the milling I found necessary.

    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-c...machinist.html

    Gary

  5. #5
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    Nov 2019
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    11

    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    I'm an ex Mach3 and current Mach4 user. The difference between Mach3 and 4 is night an day. I use both Fusion 360 and Vectric Aspire for my CAD/CAM. If you are up to speed on Fusion, your golden. If not, you have a learning curve ahead of you. I haven't checked lately to see if Fusion has added a Mach4 post. Lately, I've been using Aspire. If not, use the Mach3 post. it works fine.

    For the kind of work you describe, a Vectric product (V-Carve Pro, or Aspire) may be a better bet than Fusion (even though Fusion is free for the hobby version). Fusion is great for a lot of things, but not great for V-carve - at least it wasn't last time I tried. Sign work (V-carve, raised letters, artwork, etc) is where Vectric really shines. There's a learning curve, but not too steep. Many great tutorial videos online. Vectric is also good for inlay work, which is something you mentioned.

    If you decide to go with Vectric, Aspire's claim to fame is 3d work. V-carve Pro will import one 3d image, and that's it. Aspire allow importation of multiple images, and allows you to create 3d images for carving. Also, Aspire comes with a whole lot of 3d artwork, which is nice. You can download trials of both. They are fully functional, except you cannot download the cut files.

    Since you mentioned furniture, I suggest you consider a program called JointCam. It is designed to cut dovetails, box joints, and mortises and tenons. To use it on an Avid 4 x 4, you will need to modify your build by setting the front rail back a few inches to allow you to cut vertically off the front end of the machine, or you will need to cut a hole in the spoilboard. The set back is no big thing, except you reduce your Y axis cut envelope by the amount of your setback. Cutting off the front is a whole lot easier. Look at ger21's post above, He is the designer and has a link to it at the bottom of his post.

    My 4 x 4 is of my own design, but I am using the same steppers (NEMA 34) and the Z axis they sell. They are very nice.

    Here are photos of the jig I built for dovetails, etc I built for my machine. I can cut from both the left and right sides. It's a takeoff from the Leigh D4R Pro.





    Finally, here is a link to my build thread. It contains useful information about building with 80/20 extrusions, including all the milling I found necessary.

    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-c...machinist.html

    Gary
    Awesome info. I really appreciate everyone taking the time to reply to my post. Sounds like Mach 4 will suffice. I don't want to be crippled with small things slowing down my purchase!!!!

  6. #6
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    Jan 2010
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    77

    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    I have a used multicam for sale and have had two different guys with the cncrp pro machines looking to upgrade to a stiffer machine. Coming from a machine shop type of machine, I think you may be dissapointed with the lack of rigidity. If you use it gently, you can probably get by with it. If you push it hard, I think you may be unhappy with cncrp.

  7. #7
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    Jan 2015
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    194

    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    I have a 5x10 Avid Pro machine with linear rails and use it for my home theater subwoofer business. I wish I had spent the $20,000+ more for the Camaster Cobra, which would be a stiffer, more capable machine with the HUGE benefit of having an ATC (automatic tool changer). But I didn’t have the extra $20K so I bought the CNCRP Pro and it has been making me money for the past 3+ years. I’d love to upgrade to the Camaster Cobra but even cutting slower, I’m not anywhere close to production limited with my current machine. I’d love to have a Porsche but my Honda is doing just fine.

  8. #8
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    Mar 2003
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    35538

    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    There's a 5 year old 4x8 Stinger with ATC for sale on the Camaster forum for $19,000.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  9. #9
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    Nov 2019
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    11

    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Thanks to all who commented. Pulled the trigger and ordered the Pro 4x4 last week. About 4-5 weeks out I guess. Going to be a long wait!

  10. #10
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    829

    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Congrats, AvidCNC is usually conservative, you will probably have it before 4-5 weeks.

  11. #11
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    11

    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Quote Originally Posted by nlancaster View Post
    Congrats, AvidCNC is usually conservative, you will probably have it before 4-5 weeks.
    You are correct Sir. Avid shipped out all of my components at about 3 weeks in less the spindle which is on backorder and the 80/20 which will drop ship.

    I now have 80% of the components sitting in my garage. Still no shipping info from 80/20 hard to believe that will take 4-5 weeks before it ships out. The plan is to build everything, then the spindle should be arriving soon. Kinda bummed sitting around waiting

  12. #12
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    841

    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Quote Originally Posted by RNGPRODUCTS View Post
    You are correct Sir. Avid shipped out all of my components at about 3 weeks in less the spindle which is on backorder and the 80/20 which will drop ship.

    I now have 80% of the components sitting in my garage. Still no shipping info from 80/20 hard to believe that will take 4-5 weeks before it ships out. The plan is to build everything, then the spindle should be arriving soon. Kinda bummed sitting around waiting
    I've bought a lot of stuff from 80/20 over the years. I've never had to wait anywhere near 4 weeks from order to receipt - even with stuff that isn't in stock lengths. I get my orders on my doorstep within 10 days or less of making them.

    When I bought the extrusions for my current machine, it was during a rare 15% off sale. There was a caution that orders may be delayed because of volume. My order was placed Nov. 27, 2018. Despite practically everything requiring cutting to length and cutting features, the order shipped on Nov. 29. and was on my doorstep within a week thereafter. I'm in Washington State (a couple of hours south of Avid). 8020 is just outside Columbia City, Indiana on the route to Ft. Wayne, In. Once out the door, 8020 orders are generally on the road to me for a week. Incomprehensible to me why you are left waiting so long for them to just to get the order out the door.

  13. #13
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    Nov 2019
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    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    I've bought a lot of stuff from 80/20 over the years. I've never had to wait anywhere near 4 weeks from order to receipt - even with stuff that isn't in stock lengths. I get my orders on my doorstep within 10 days or less of making them.

    When I bought the extrusions for my current machine, it was during a rare 15% off sale. There was a caution that orders may be delayed because of volume. My order was placed Nov. 27, 2018. Despite practically everything requiring cutting to length and cutting features, the order shipped on Nov. 29. and was on my doorstep within a week thereafter. I'm in Washington State (a couple of hours south of Avid). 8020 is just outside Columbia City, Indiana on the route to Ft. Wayne, In. Once out the door, 8020 orders are generally on the road to me for a week. Incomprehensible to me why you are left waiting so long for them to just to get the order out the door.
    I was definitely a little surprised I had received the CNC parts prior to the 80/20 extrusions. However I am happy to report I have received the 80/20 extrusions as well as all the remaining components.

    I really have nothing negative to say about Avid CNC. Communication was on point and they met their quoted timelines a few days early. Now it's time to start putting the build.

    If anyone is interested I will be doing a pretty in depth YouTube series on this machine on my Channel. You can Subscribe and check out my content here. Would love to hear from everyone with their comments and advice: https://youtu.be/ySa9lL61rFE

  14. #14
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    841

    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Congratulations! Before you start assembling, you may want to take a look at my build thread for some useful information on 80/20. Here's a link: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-c...machinist.html

    Note: I did not build an Avid machine, although I used their ball screw Z axis. Aside from the Z axis, I built my own machine from scratch. However, there are tolerances on 80/20 extrusions you may want to know about. If you're interested, take a look at how I dealt with them. Hint: I spent hours at my milling machine. This has nothing to do with Avid. It's an 80/20 thing and beyond Avid's control.

    Gary

  15. #15
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    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Please bear in mind there are hundreds of Avid CNCRP machines built every year, that use the 80/20 cut extrusions out of the box and build machines that cut accurate and true after being setup according to Avid CNCRP instructions. They are a first rate company and I have purchased many items from them and never an issue. If it was not right they would make it right.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  16. #16
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    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Quote Originally Posted by GME View Post
    Congratulations! Before you start assembling, you may want to take a look at my build thread for some useful information on 80/20. Here's a link: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-c...machinist.html

    Note: I did not build an Avid machine, although I used their ball screw Z axis. Aside from the Z axis, I built my own machine from scratch. However, there are tolerances on 80/20 extrusions you may want to know about. If you're interested, take a look at how I dealt with them. Hint: I spent hours at my milling machine. This has nothing to do with Avid. It's an 80/20 thing and beyond Avid's control.

    Gary
    Totally understand. I have a background in machining wish I still had my Bridgeport and metal shop!

  17. #17
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    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    I think Gary is the only one that ever has milled the ends of his 80/20 extrusions on a CNC router. At least documented on the Zone anyway.
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  18. #18
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    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post
    I think Gary is the only one that ever has milled the ends of his 80/20 extrusions on a CNC router. At least documented on the Zone anyway.
    You're probably right, Bill. But then, it appears that few even know about the 80/20 tolerances. It's not like 80/20 makes them easy to find. Dollars to donuts, most folks don't bother to measure, so they have no idea. I'm not suggesting 80/20 is a bad choice or that anyone else would go the the trouble of tightening the tolerances. I'm guessing the majority don't have mills, and probably wouldn't go to the trouble if they did.

    As you've pointed out, Avid has many happy customers. Their machines are well thought out, and have evolved for the better over time (e.g., adding profile linear rails). The fact that older machines can be upgraded. and smaller machines can fairly easily be made larger shows a commitment to make the customer experience about as positive as it can be - never mind superior customer service.. Still, it does no harm to disseminate the facts, so folks can decide what they want to do (or not do). I'm guessing that most folks would just view the tolerance issue as 'it is what it is' and not be swayed one way or the other. Also, It's not like there are many choices in extrusion-based machines.

    Most of the hobby market seems to be comprised of extremely light duty machines and there are a number of folks who find out their machines won't do what they want them to, or have to compromise with excruciating slow feeds and speeds.

    If folks want more accuracy and rigidity, and are willing to pay for it, they would be looking at something more like a Camaster. (which I don't consider to be a hobby machine), or would design and build their own. IMO, Avid is the high end of the hobby "kit" market, and they are good enough that some folks use them in their businesses. Hard to beat that.

    Gary

  19. #19
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    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Avid is the high end of the hobby "kit" market, and they are good enough that some folks use them in their businesses. Hard to beat that.

    I agree to that and they are accurate enough to be used Commercially and are making money without the added milling steps.

    So what have you been making with yours?
    Retired Master Electrician, HVAC/R Commercial. FLA Saturn 2 4x4 CNC Router Mach4 Kimber 1911 45ACP

  20. #20
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    Re: AVID CNC PRO 48x48 Purchase (Mach 4 Concerns)

    Quote Originally Posted by wmgeorge View Post

    So what have you been making with yours?
    Nothing lately. I had an issue with my E-Stop that surfaced when i did some wiring revisions to get rid of some noise in my control box. The noise problem surfaced when I was using the Mach4 "Touch" screen to set X,Y=0. The steel dowel I was using as the "probe" would touch, and then stop and end the routine. I could get it to work by setting the noise filter to 5000 units, which is a lot. After doing some work in the box, I got it to work consistently with 0 filtering. Anyway, I decided to test everything. I haven't used my E-Stop since I migrated to Mach4. When I tested it, I found it would trip, but would not reset. After days of fooling with it, I found there was an issue with the interaction with the charge pump. When I hit the E-Stop, it faulted the charge pump and would not reset. It would reset if I closed Mach and then reopened it, but fault again, if I triggered the E-Stop. I was able to rule out my BOB as the culprit by loading Mach3. Things worked as they should under Mach3. So, it was either a Mach4 issue, or an issue with my ESS. Without getting into the weeds too far, the evidence points to the ESS. I works with Warp9 on their forum, but we never got to how to fix the problem. Fortunately, the Charge Pump is superfluous when not using a parallel port, and my BOB (PMDX-126) allows turning off the Charge Pump by just a flip of a DIP switch. When I disabled the Charge Pump, all worked as it should.

    I have a couple of projects coming up. One is to make 22 rosettes for my master bedroom and sitting room door and window trim. The other is to make some drawer boxes for some shop cabinets. I'm going to use Jointcam and use box joints to put them together. Since I'm using plywood for the boxes, box joints work better then dovetail. Dovetails in plywood are possible (I've made them), but they can be relatively week. It will be my go around with Jointcam. I'm looking forward.

    Another project that's a little further out is to build what is called an MFTC. It's a portable cutting station/work station designed by a very bright fellow in Belgium. I need a better cutting table to breakdown plywood. Here's a rendering of it. The plans include auxiliary tables to extend its size. Very handy and it doesn't take up much room. If you aren't familiar with the Festool MFT, the holes in the table top are 20mm in diameter and take bench dogs used for Festool track saws and other accessories.



    Here's a link to a video, if it's something you find interesting:



    Now that the whether has driven me indoors, I'm back to remodel projects. I have a large house, so they will probably continue until I'm too old to do them. On the plus side, I'm never bored in retirement.

    Gary

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