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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Cincinnati CNC > Power-up Problems with Sabre 750
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    45

    Power-up Problems with Sabre 750

    I have a 1996 Sabre 750 with the 2100 control and the BDS4/Kollmorgen drive setup. For the last year, the machine has been acting up at initial start-up. The machine boots and loads with no problem. But when it gets to the "machine power required" screen, hitting the green button again fails to power up the machine. Instead, it sits there for a few seconds and then brings up the following screen:

    "Alarm 39-6

    The axes drives ready signal [CR_AXES_RDY] and/or the servo ready signal [S_SERVO_RDY] have not been received within the allowed time limit.

    Determine the offending drive. Make sure the power module is working correctly. Check the supply voltage to the unit. Consult the relevant drive documentation."

    Now this problem started about a year ago. At first, I could just clear the error screen and retry to start it. This would work after a few tries, maybe 4-5 restarts. But the problem has gotten progressively worse. The other day, it took me about 75 attempts before the machine finally powered up. Now once it powers up the first time, you can turn it off and it will start right up again. You can let it sit for a while and it will start again. But if it sits overnight, the same problem occurs the next day. And the longer the machine sits (like a few days), the worse the problem the next time you go to start it.

    I happened to have a service man here with a good amount of experience on these machines replacing the thrust bearings shortly after this problem started. He tested the output of the power supply and found it to be well within specifications. He tried to chase the problem more, but as with so many electrical problems, the issue never seems to happen when you need it to happen. It messed up a few times while he was here, but once it started the first time, the problem never came back for him to see it. I have also since tested it with a voltmeter and I see no voltage fluctuations when the machine is trying to power up, so I seriously doubt that the problem is related to the power supply.

    Instead, it seems to me to act more like an issue with dirty or failing contacts, this would explain the way it is acting. The error seems to be related to the z-axis drive since the red light appears on this drive after the error pop up on the screen. The same technician suggested that the problem may be a relay related to the brake on the z-drive axis, but the documentation available to me is very limited, so I don't know what relay this would be.

    If I had more documentation, then I feel as if I could probably chase this problem on my own. I am experienced mechanic, machinist, and engineer with degrees in both electronic and mechanical engineering. But without any information to understand how these systems function, it is just one giant black box. So if anyone can help me trace this problem, I would appreciate it.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    123
    hello
    what electrical schematics is the machine wired to?
    you will find the number on the silver label on the outside of the electrical
    cabinet door. it is the bottom number and starts 9120****
    regards
    mallardfizz

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    45
    Quote Originally Posted by mallardfizz View Post
    hello
    what electrical schematics is the machine wired to?
    you will find the number on the silver label on the outside of the electrical
    cabinet door. it is the bottom number and starts 9120****
    regards
    mallardfizz
    912028740

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    123
    hello again
    if you send an e-mail to my e-mail address i will send you a copy of the electrical drawings and try to give you some fault finding instructions
    [email protected]
    regards
    mallardfizz

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    460
    An experienced tech with Cincinnati verticals and he doesn't know how to start chasing this one down?

    This alarm is simply telling you the 24VDC (CR_AXES_RDY) signal to the control which is chained through the drives is getting lost. This starts out at wire 424 into the X-axis drive, then to Y-axis, and then Z-axis if all three of these are powered up properly, the 24 volts gets to the control on Input 32.

    With machine power off, remove the C1 connector from X, Y and Z-axis drives and reseat them. There is a chance the problem will disappear after doing this.

    If not, the next time this happens, open the electrical cabinet and watch the indicator lights on the drives as someone else presses the button to power up the drives. Before the power button is pressed, the Axis drives should all have the same lights on (Control voltage and Undervolt if I remember correctly). After the power button is pressed, the undervoltage lights should turn off and Enabled and Drive Ready should turn on.

    If all of the drives stay undervolt, check your power supply, but most likely only one of the drives will not react properly and this will tell you where to start troubleshooting.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
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    45
    Quote Originally Posted by maver1ck View Post
    An experienced tech with Cincinnati verticals and he doesn't know how to start chasing this one down?

    This alarm is simply telling you the 24VDC (CR_AXES_RDY) signal to the control which is chained through the drives is getting lost. This starts out at wire 424 into the X-axis drive, then to Y-axis, and then Z-axis if all three of these are powered up properly, the 24 volts gets to the control on Input 32.

    With machine power off, remove the C1 connector from X, Y and Z-axis drives and reseat them. There is a chance the problem will disappear after doing this.

    If not, the next time this happens, open the electrical cabinet and watch the indicator lights on the drives as someone else presses the button to power up the drives. Before the power button is pressed, the Axis drives should all have the same lights on (Control voltage and Undervolt if I remember correctly). After the power button is pressed, the undervoltage lights should turn off and Enabled and Drive Ready should turn on.

    If all of the drives stay undervolt, check your power supply, but most likely only one of the drives will not react properly and this will tell you where to start troubleshooting.
    OK, I just went through all of this, and what I can tell you is that the Control Volt and Undervolt are indeed lit on all three prior to pressing the button. Almost immediately after pressing the button, the Enabled and Drive Ready lights light up and the Undervolt turn off on the x and y drives. On the z drive, the Enabled turns on, but the Undervolt never turns off and the Drive Ready never turns on. So the problem is related to the z drive, which we had already deduced previously when the tech was here. I also unplugged and reconnected all of the C1 connectors (I don't know if he did this previously or not) and it has made no difference.

    This is as far as we got last time, because when he was here, the very next time we tried to start it, it started. And as I already stated, once it starts it doesn't do this again for the rest of the day, so we could not make it duplicate the problem for him to investigate any further. And as anyone that has ever had to troubleshoot an intermittent electrical problem knows, Murphy's Law almost guarantees that the problem will not occur when you need it to.

    And to the tech's defense, he is no longer a full-time service man. He used to do this full-time, but he is now a lead shift machinist at one of the big NASCAR teams here in the area. He is a friend of a friend and he does me a favor by coming out to my shop to look at this machine. He works so many hours that the only time he can ever do it is during his Christmas break. The last 2 years, he has taken one of his days of vacation to come to my shop and fix something on my machine, so I am not complaining about his help. And I have no doubt that if he still did this full-time, he would be able to trouble-shoot the problem even faster. But I know how it is when you stop working with something, even if you once knew it like the back of your hand. If you don't continue to work with it every day your expertise, or at least the speed with which you can recall that expertise, tends to fade with time.

    So having said all that, where do you suggest I go from here? What are the possible reasons for the Z-drive not setting itself to a ready state? It appears from the fact that the Enabled light turns on that the request for ready is being received, but something is failing a check to allow the drive to actually cycle through to the ready state.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1765
    You've done a good job of narrowing it down. Unfortunately there is little more you can do with an under volts error - of course you could check that the dc bus + & - wires are tight at bottom front of the Z BDS4, but if one was loose you would have other issues after it started up too. The UV circuitry inside the drive is prone to wearing out and needing repairs 15-20 years into the BDS4's life. We get quite a few in for repair with random UV faults that start out sometimes then get worse and worse.

  8. #8
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    Sep 2005
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    45
    Quote Originally Posted by mike_Kilroy View Post
    You've done a good job of narrowing it down. Unfortunately there is little more you can do with an under volts error - of course you could check that the dc bus + & - wires are tight at bottom front of the Z BDS4, but if one was loose you would have other issues after it started up too. The UV circuitry inside the drive is prone to wearing out and needing repairs 15-20 years into the BDS4's life. We get quite a few in for repair with random UV faults that start out sometimes then get worse and worse.
    The power supply was rebuilt about 6 months before this problem first appeared, so the bus connections were one of the first things we checked, and I have since checked them again. Plus a test with a voltmeter directly on the studs (not on the cables) shows no fluctuation. I have thought about connecting my oscilloscope to see how much ripple there actually is, but I felt like that was a bit overkill unless I truly suspected a power supply problem.

    So what you are saying to me is that all of the possible failed tests for the drive to pass the ready test and move out of the undervolt condition are all internal conditions? The drive has no inputs testing any external conditions as part of the ready state test (other than obviously bus supply voltage)? In other words, there are no digital or analog signals from any switches, relays, sensors, data bus, etc. being input into the drive that could possibly cause this problem?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    1765
    correct.

  10. #10
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    Sep 2005
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    45
    Quote Originally Posted by mike_Kilroy View Post
    correct.
    I was afraid that was going to be your response.

    When I started the machine on Friday, it only took about a dozen tries, which is way better than it has been recently. So I guess that this is just going to be one of those cases where I ride the horse til she won't ride no more. I don't do any contract work, so I have no deadlines if the machine breaks and leaves me down for a few weeks. When she finally dies, I will deal with fixing it then.

    Also, I need to discuss the memory batteries on both boards. I have been reading about the many failures recently, so I plan to change both of them out in the next few weeks using the jumper technique to hopefully not lose the settings. What I need to know before doing this is exactly which BIOS settings I need to record in case I lose the WS memory. I assume that I need to get to these settings at initial bootup? I really don't know much about these old Windows systems, and once the machine has loaded the Acramatic software, I have not found a way to get back into the Windows NT screens.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    0
    Hello All

    I hope people are still reading this thread.

    I do have simular problems with my Cincinatti Sabre 750, as what has been discribed by the topic starter.
    The only difference is that my machine is running on a Heidenhain 426 cnc control (so i do get a different error on my screen).
    But all the problems which i do read here are the exact same. :tired:

    And another thing we do have in common is the fact that i also dont have any electrical schematics i have all the drawings etc, but not this.

    So to make a long story short, i do have 2 questions.

    1. would anybody be so kind to send me the electrical schematics my number on the cabinet is: 91203230 if this is not possible who/which company can i contact about this ?
    2. If i finaly need to repair/exchange my drive(s) who/which company can i contact about this issue. ?

    BTW: i do live in holland this might make things a little more difficult.
    THX in advance

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    52
    I have the exact same problem on my 1996 Sabre 1000 with Acramatic 850SX.

    I live in florida and it turned out that humidity was the issue. The problem got progressively worse over time and now on a humid morning, it will not start unless I use a heat gun on the Digital In card that receives the VRDY, Axis error signals from the 3 axis drive.

    Ok "humidity" is not the problem but it is what makes the problem surface on my machine.

    To be clear, the machine powers up fine but will not start on the second ON button press with out throwing "X axis error" until I warm/dry the Digital In card.

    Hope this helps,
    Eric

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1765
    the orig mfgr: Fives Group now: Fives Machining Systems Inc.: Sales Contact Information

    for usa I see:

    Contact Information

    Parts and Service

    Phone: 800 934 0735
    Fax: 859 534 4991
    Email: fivesmsi-gsparts(at)fivesgroup.com


    they can send you your wiring diagram too

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    0
    Quote Originally Posted by peterson76 View Post
    I have the exact same problem on my 1996 Sabre 1000 with Acramatic 850SX.

    I live in florida and it turned out that humidity was the issue. The problem got progressively worse over time and now on a humid morning, it will not start unless I use a heat gun on the Digital In card that receives the VRDY, Axis error signals from the 3 axis drive.

    Ok "humidity" is not the problem but it is what makes the problem surface on my machine.

    To be clear, the machine powers up fine but will not start on the second ON button press with out throwing "X axis error" until I warm/dry the Digital In card.

    Hope this helps,
    Eric
    Ok thx... the humidity thing did cross my mind several times... although i do have a heater in my workshop and it does have an insulated roof, etc (dunno if this is the right word in english).

    I still discovered it was worse after a cold and rainy weekend (we do have quit a lot of them over here in holland).
    So this makes sense to me.

    BTW my problem is not that bad ATM it just started a few weeks ago, so building a minor electrical heating component (maybe 100 watt) will take care of this problem.
    I have done this before in my (very) older cnc mill which died on me last summer.
    I thought it wasn't necessary with this one (electrical cabin is very well build).

    Anyway thx heaps for comment i will give this a try and see if this does solve it.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    0
    Quote Originally Posted by mike_Kilroy View Post
    the orig mfgr: Fives Group now: Fives Machining Systems Inc.: Sales Contact Information

    for usa I see:

    Contact Information

    Parts and Service

    Phone: 800 934 0735
    Fax: 859 534 4991
    Email: fivesmsi-gsparts(at)fivesgroup.com


    they can send you your wiring diagram too
    Ok thx.

    So if i do understand you right (english is not my native language) this company did take over from Cincinnati. ? and they are now the right ones to contact right ?
    I do have a Heidenhain 426 Control on it (not original cincinnati one) but that should be no problem i reckon ?
    Because number on the door of the electrical cabin should always match up i suppose ?

    Once again thx realy need these *drawings*

    BTW what is the right word which i should ask in the mail

    1. Electrical drawings (this is what we use in holland)
    2. Electrical shematics ?
    3. Electrical wiring sheme/diagram ?

    Thx folks for the help i realy appreciate it.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    50
    The Acramatic controls are owned by Siemens. Parts, service, and repair is still available on many Acramatic products by contacting Siemens at 800-879-8079. Siemens also has some economical retrofit packages for Sabers available along with retrofit services thru their network of Solution Partners. If you ask about the retrofit options when you call the 800# your inquiry will be forward to their sales group to follow up with you. If the iron is still good, retrofitting may be a good option. There is a video showing an example of a similar machine retrofit on CNC Videos and Interactive Tools ? CNC Machine Shop ? SINUMERIK CNC ? G-Code ? CNC Controls ? Machine Tools ? Metal Cutting ? Siemens under the Reasons to Choose SINUMERIK CNC call CNC machine tool retrofit.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    584

    Re: Power-up Problems with Sabre 750

    You need to send the Z axis drive to Mike at Kilroywashere (dot) com. I have worked with Mike Kilroy for a while and his company will fix the problem. Get the problem fixed so that you don't have to think about it every time you start the machine. Mike cncmachineservices (dot) com

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
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    106

    Re: Power-up Problems with Sabre 750

    For future reference ;
    Alarm 39-6 The axes drives ready signal [CR_AXES_RDY]

    -comes on when side panel is taken off, there's an interlock, and it will not allow you to turn the machine on.

    Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

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