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Thread: Break Angle

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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    82

    Break Angle

    Cutting a pocket, using Fusion 360 which creates the g code. The pocket is intricate, problem is it seems to being small circles in the tight corners and the machine is jerking slightly as if it is stopping then starting not a smooth movement. I have my break angle set at 20. I think this may be a break angle issue? Is 20 low or high what is the low and high range for the break angle? This is on a cnc router. thanks for any help and info. Joe

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    4131

    Re: Break Angle

    hy program is succumbing the machine : the geometrical entity is too short, thus programmed feed can not be reached

    if you wish to prevent this, you have to simulate the motion by using the cnc algorithms inside the simulation software, that should create a map of motion loss, and adjust as necessary ... auto adjusting would be real nice

    to smooth out the movement :
    ... increase the length of the geometrical entities
    ... and / or
    ... decrease the tolerance of the machine, activate some dynamic control ( requires a nice cnc controler )

    kindly long live fusion !
    Ladyhawke - My Delirium, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bFO1SNRZg

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    4043

    Re: Break Angle

    Hi Joe,

    Cutting a pocket, using Fusion 360 which creates the g code. The pocket is intricate, problem is it seems to being small circles in the tight corners and the machine is jerking slightly as if it is stopping then starting not a smooth movement. I have my break angle set at 20. I think this may be a break angle issue? Is 20 low or high what is the low and high range for the break angle?
    You might try Break Angle of 179 degrees which "rounds" all corners within the Corner Tolerance and should avoid all exact stops.

    Can you create a small GCode fragment to demonstrate the issue? Also please post all your settings.
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    82

    Re: Break Angle

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi Joe,

    You might try Break Angle of 179 degrees which "rounds" all corners within the Corner Tolerance and should avoid all exact stops.

    Can you create a small GCode fragment to demonstrate the issue? Also please post all your settings.
    Below settings and part of the g code generated by Fusion 360 thanks for the help, Joe

    Settings
    Break Angle 20
    Look Ahead 3
    Collinear Tolerance .0005
    Clearance Tolerance .003
    Facet Angle 1
    Arcs to Segments checked

    ch0 is X axis Vel = 10160 Accel = 30480
    ch1 and ch7 = Y axis Vel 10160 Accel = 20320
    ch2 = Z axis Vel = 10160 Accel 30480

    %
    (test)
    (1/4 2 Flute End Mill Z Top of piece off use 3/4 block X/Y bottom left stock)
    N10 G90 G94
    N15 G17
    N20 G20


    (2D Pocket2)
    N25 M9
    N30 T2 M6
    N35 S13600 M3
    N40 M9
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    N65 G1 Z-0.1
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  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    4043

    Re: Break Angle

    Hi Joe,

    Running that with your settings seems to run as I would expect. Could you explain what you think the issue is more clearly?

    You forgot to tell us your Trajectory Planner resolutions, velocities, and accelerations.

    What Version of KMotion are you running?

    There are some tight corners that are only a few thousands of an inch radius. So those may require slowing down depending on the limits of your machine.

    Here is a zoomed in plot:

    Attachment 440760

    The GCode also specifies Feedrate changes in some of the corners I don't understand the purpose of. Such as:

    N210 G3 X2.1423 Y5.9345 I-0.0084 J-0.0066 F10.82
    N215 G3 X1.7786 Y5.3045 I1.1201 J-1.0667 F43.3
    N220 G3 X1.7874 Y5.291 I0.0102 J-0.003 F10.82
    N225 G2 X1.9906 Y5.1771 I-0.0444 J-0.3175 F43.3
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    4131

    Re: Break Angle

    So those may require slowing down depending on the limits of your machine
    hello Tom mapping feedrate algorithms : i guess if r < specific_limit then reduce_feed_to_25% ( thus "relative" or to 10.82 - absolute )

    rally drivers are slowing down before a corner

    I don't understand the purpose of
    oh, now is see that you are related to dynomotion.com

    i guess that you are much mode involved into these; is the software behaving not as expected ? kindly
    Ladyhawke - My Delirium, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bFO1SNRZg

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    82

    Re: Break Angle

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi Joe,

    Running that with your settings seems to run as I would expect. Could you explain what you think the issue is more clearly?

    You forgot to tell us your Trajectory Planner resolutions, velocities, and accelerations.

    What Version of KMotion are you running?

    There are some tight corners that are only a few thousands of an inch radius. So those may require slowing down depending on the limits of your machine.

    Here is a zoomed in plot:



    The GCode also specifies Feedrate changes in some of the corners I don't understand the purpose of. Such as:

    N210 G3 X2.1423 Y5.9345 I-0.0084 J-0.0066 F10.82
    N215 G3 X1.7786 Y5.3045 I1.1201 J-1.0667 F43.3
    N220 G3 X1.7874 Y5.291 I0.0102 J-0.003 F10.82
    N225 G2 X1.9906 Y5.1771 I-0.0444 J-0.3175 F43.3

    I upgraded to 434

    Trajectory Planner resolutions, velocities, and accelerations.

    Ctns/Inc = 10160 Vel In/Sec = 1 Accel in/Sec = 3


    This the part I machined

    Regarding slowing down in corners. Fusion 360 has an option of "Feed Optimization" with a maximum direction change of 25 degrees it reduces feed rate. I know very little about G code and I let Fusion 360 do the work. I thought slowing down in the corners was a good thing, maybe I should deselect " Feed Optimization".

    When I'm cutting the piece I listen and feel the machine, if it sounds strange or vibrates I want to ask if something is wrong. As you can see the part I am machining (routing) is wood, I would not expect an issue with capability of my machine. I have machined 2" thick aluminum with no problems but not with such tight corners in a pocket.

    To me it seems the machine is making a circular motion in the corners but it seems to be jerky with slight vibration which I don't normally experience and you hear a sound that is almost like grinding but I know its not grinding it just the best way to describe the sound,

    Perhaps this is just the nature of the cut, it just seems strange to me. I may be over thinking this. I built the machine to machine aluminum, it has 40 mm balls screws with a gantry that is over 300 lbs, When cutting I'm moving a lot of weight in small circles at what I think is pretty quick for a small circle.

    Maybe it's slowing down going into the corner speeding up coming out of the corner and then slowing down again going back into the corner causing the sound and vibration, quick change in speed and two directions at the same time, maybe the vibration and noise is normal??

    Let me know if you see anything wrong with my settings or the g code and if you think should I deselect "Feed Optimization" in Fusion 360 so the machine does not slow down in the corners ?

    Thanks for your help everyone

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    4131

    Re: Break Angle

    I built the machine ... When I'm cutting the piece I listen and feel the machine
    mirocha, if you actually build that machine, and you listen to it, then it seems a bit strange to me that you hit into this problem thus you invested much more time into building, while fixing your issue should be very simple : just identify the toolpath portion that does not behave how you wish, create a program only with that portion, and run a few trials ... seems to me that you may test at least 6-10 different approaches per hour, and i guess you have enough wood

    should I deselect "Feed Optimization"
    just deselect it and see what happens

    please, don't get me wrong, you seem to have knowledge about buidling machines, and you listen to them, and this is very good ... you are talented, but you hit into a very simple thing / kindly
    Ladyhawke - My Delirium, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bFO1SNRZg

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Posts
    82

    Re: Break Angle

    Quote Originally Posted by deadlykitten View Post
    mirocha, if you actually build that machine, and you listen to it, then it seems a bit strange to me that you hit into this problem thus you invested much more time into building, while fixing your issue should be very simple : just identify the toolpath portion that does not behave how you wish, create a program only with that portion, and run a few trials ... seems to me that you may test at least 6-10 different approaches per hour, and i guess you have enough wood



    just deselect it and see what happens

    please, don't get me wrong, you seem to have knowledge about buidling machines, and you listen to them, and this is very good ... you are talented, but you hit into a very simple thing / kindly
    Yes I actually built the machine see the pictures, I built it and used MDF wood that I routed by hand for the parts that are machined aluminum then used the machine made with the MDF to machine the aluminum parts and replaced all the MDF with the aluminum parts I made. I designed the control circuits and built the control panel and wired it. I worked as an electrician in a hospital. I had no experience with cnc machining, Fusion 360, drawing in 3d or g code at all, to this day I have never seen another cnc router in person or heard one operate. everything I did was from reading and watching youtube videos. I'm self taught and yes I did build it my self, my design and did it alone no help other than the great input I received on forums like this.

    This was and is my retirement hobby project, I'm 70 years old so for an old guy in his garage I think I'm doing pretty good, I'm sorry that your frustrated with my lack of knowledge but for me somethings are easier to just ask the experts. I've spent hours even days trying to figure something out, posted on this forum and Tom gave me the solution, I could have saved days if I just asked, some time my question may seem simple but I am sincere.


  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    4043

    Re: Break Angle

    Hi Joe,

    Very nice clean machine. Thanks for sharing.

    It isn't clear to me anything is wrong or unexpected. It would be normal to slow down to go around the tight corners. So all the quick accelerations/decelerations/direction changes are likely to cause noise and vibrations in the structure.

    Here is the formula for acceleration required to go around a curve:

    Attachment 440812

    so for those small arcs with radius of ~ 0.01 inches the maximum speed with your max acceleration of 3 in/sec2 would be:

    0.173ips = 10ipm

    As mirocha points out it seems Fusion is detecting tight curves and deciding to divide the commanded feedrate by 4. Maybe that makes sense for some controllers but shouldn't be needed with ours.

    There is a low pass filter that can be applied to the output of the coordinated motion path that you might experiment with. See the Tau parameter described here. Your machine is heavy with relatively low acceleration so you might try a fairly large Tau of something like 0.01 seconds.

    If you wanted to do a complete analysis you could capture the motion with a C Program such as the example CaptureXYZMotionToFile.c. Then plot/analyze the motion with something like Excel
    TK
    http://dynomotion.com

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    4131

    Re: Break Angle

    hy mirocha, you indeed invested a lot of time into it ... machine looks nice, but photos were tilted with 90*, probably because we are on different continents just kidding

    i also learned many specifics from different veterans from this forum

    your machine looks pretty equilabrated, i like that big air hose and there is a creppy mask arround there ...

    once i also wished to build a 3 axis thing, but i was not into electronics, and back then i did not found a guy that could do it ... i was thinking about digitizing a precision mechanical engraving machine ... in replace, i got into machining, g-codes, etc

    you have a very nice hobby, considering that you are a nurse at a hospital, in her mid 20s

    If you wanted to do a complete analysis you could capture the motion with a C Program such as the example CaptureXYZMotionToFile.c. Then plot/analyze the motion with something like Excel
    nice point Tom ... i was going to suggest if there is a method to check the motion output, in order to understand better how the machine behaves

    is not a must to cut wood, i believe that those vibrations will be there even if the machine is cutting air ... so maybe you can trigger some conclusions only by playing with the values of those feeds, but, in the end, is all about how you setup your fusion and other parameters ... i guess that Tom knows those, so rely on him / kindly
    Ladyhawke - My Delirium, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bFO1SNRZg

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    56

    Re: Break Angle

    Feed optimization in Fusion is primarily just to reduce tool loading on inside corners(it defaults to only inside corners). If he is running an "adaptive clearing" HSM toolpath in fusion it shouldn't be necessary. I use it when slotting but that's about it.

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