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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Tormach Personal CNC Mill > Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches
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  1. #21
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    Jan 2016
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    120

    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    Are you going to blue or treat the steel? I like your design! I was considering making some of these out of aluminum but will probably do steel or stainless after seeing yours.

  2. #22
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    Oct 2008
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    2100

    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    I doubt I'll treat the steel in anyway. 4140 is not stainless, but it has higher chromium than many other steels. It will rust, but not in a big hurry. If I store them away I'd probably just oil them and wrap them in paper. Being used regularly I won't do anything with them.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    4252

    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    Nice tools.
    I am curious: it seems you milled them out of a solid block and then cut the back off to get something like 6 mm thick spanner. (if thicker, no matter.)
    Why didn't you cut them out of 6 mm plate supported on some spoilboard? I ask because I do a lot like that (ie plate) myself.

    Cheers
    Roger

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    591

    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    I was considering making some of these out of aluminum
    Aluminum is too soft to use for tools; even wrenches like these will deform and, at a minimum, round off the teeth on the tool.
    Your knuckles are worth better!

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
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    120

    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    Aluminum is too soft to use for tools; even wrenches like these will deform and, at a minimum, round off the teeth on the tool.
    Your knuckles are worth better!
    Thanks for the advice! After getting some more capable tools and learning better practices I'm still trying to change my mindset.

  6. #26
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    Jun 2010
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    4252

    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    Aluminum is too soft to use for tools
    Blanket statement, and wrong as such.
    If you are talking about unalloyed aluminium, or one of the good bending alloys (eg 5000-series), you would probably be right.

    But cast aluminium is a different matter, and 7000-series is too. Mic-6, ATP-5, Fortal, 7075 - things like that. Bit more expensive than steel though. Made from any of these with adequate thickness, such tools would last for many years.

    Cheers
    Roger

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    591

    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    RCaffin, you're right, that's perhaps too categorical.

    Also, there are cases where you'd rather have a $10 wrench round off, than ruin a $200 precision nut because you gorilla-ed it.

    That being said -- 7075 still needs to be thicker than steel for the same shear strength, which means that any individual contact point will still be softer. (Although "steel", in itself, has quite a range ...)
    If you can live with the weight/density and corrosion properties of steel, it's almost always the better choice in my experience.

  8. #28
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    Oct 2008
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    2100

    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    Nice tools.
    I am curious: it seems you milled them out of a solid block and then cut the back off to get something like 6 mm thick spanner. (if thicker, no matter.)
    Why didn't you cut them out of 6 mm plate supported on some spoilboard? I ask because I do a lot like that (ie plate) myself.

    Cheers
    Roger
    I don't think glue and tape would have cut it for this job. It was pushing substantially more than a third horsepower. However, that's not the real reason. The real reason for going with the 1" (25.4mm) steel is because I have a bunch of it laying around left over from a job. The job paid for all the left overs a long time ago, so for any future projects its free "to me."

    As an aside this was much easier in my opinion than any of the other options
    1. Glue and tape... I don't think it would hold.
    2. Profile and deck off back. Hard to hold and for this thicker stock would take a while
    3. Tabs... require manual cut and hand grinding to finish.
    4. Drill through to backer, tap, and bolt down... well it leaves holes, and it requires a little work in setup.
    5. Clamps. Requires breaking up the job, planning clamp clearance and moving clamps mid job.

    I've used all of those methods when I thought they were the best method for the job.

    This was just the easiest, cheapest, fastest way to do it with what I had on hand in tools, scraps, and left overs.

    I'm actually thinking about using roughly the same methods to make some articulating table mounted work stops. I will want to surface the backside on some of those parts though.

    As a side note that's 7x10 Harbor Freight bandsaw is an order of magnitude better than the 4x6. The saw cuts were nice enough I didn't even grind the backs. Just ran the edges once around on the belt grinder to deburr and soften the edge slightly.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    4252

    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    Hi Bob

    Free scrap - I can understand that one!

    I was not thinking of things like glue or tape. Perish the giggling thought!
    I was thinking of a multi-step step process, using a sacrificial base of hardwood. Um - Australian hardwood is so VERY different from pine: old stuff is rock hard. Not sure what would serve for this in USA.

    1: clamp down solidly, drill hole at end of handle and in middle of ring. This sets the origin.
    2: screw down to hardwood base
    3: cut out exterior outline
    4: clamp near ring
    5: cut out inside of ring. The screw in the middle of the ring will hold the cut-out bit at the end.

    Yes, this requires a sacrificial backing. Wood is cheap. Yes, this requires breaks in the program - but I write my own g-code from scratch.
    I have cut out many 'things' this way.
    Attachment 435498
    Machining titanium 6Al4V in a wooden base with a pulsed mist lubricant (MQL).

    Cheers
    Roger

  10. #30
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    Oct 2008
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    2100

    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    I hand code in bits and pieces all the time. Sometimes I'll hand code one line at a time at the MDI command line for a simple job, and some of my first jobs were all hand coded. Its not particularly unreasonabe to use CAM to write program segments either. I've done those things before. I've used scrfical backers of wood and aluminum before too. Sometimes even MDF is adequate for a backer. I've got a piece of aluminum attached to another piece of aluminum in the vise on that machine right now. It IS held on with glue and tape.


    I could have split the stock before hand, and used one of the many mounting and managing methods. Essentially working with "proper thickness" stock, but this was faster and easier. In the end this really is just a variation of the profile, flip, and deck method that is so often used in production. In this case it was just easier to deck it with the saw and save all the base metal.

    I think people underrate the bandsaw as a production tool though. They think of it either for one off projects (particularly the vertical) or for roughing stock to size with the vertical or horizontal. I routinely used my vertical to separated nearly complete work pieces before decking off the back side. I'll cut half dozen or more pieces out of a monolithic piece of stock leaving just the bare minimum of a web between them. Then I'll separate them on the band saw before I mount them one at a time in the vise to deck off the back and bring them to final thickness. Its much faster and easier than cutting them one at a time, and depending on the shape there is no clamping required at all. Sometimes soft jaws are machined to hold an irregular shape.

    I do mostly one off custom work on the paying side, but I have to think about time (my time) for everything. I can not afford to dismiss any option for mounting and managing stock. Sometimes moving clamps and multiple setups are the best way to do a job. Sometimes a sacrificial backer is. The most valuable time I spend on a project is the time I spend doing nothing but sitting there thinking my way through a project. Sometimes leaning back in my desk chair with my eyes closed and the light turned down in my office.

    I enjoy what I do, but I value my time too.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  11. #31
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    Jun 2010
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    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    one off custom work on the paying side
    Hard life sometimes, but it can be fun. Chuckle: many times the customer simply has no other choice.

    I had one customer employee tell me my rates were far too high and that I should halve them. I replied that I had already halved them as the person contracting with me was a friend. He went away.

    Cheers
    Roger

  12. #32
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    Oct 2008
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    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    Quote Originally Posted by RCaffin View Post
    one off custom work on the paying side
    Hard life sometimes, but it can be fun. Chuckle: many times the customer simply has no other choice.

    I had one customer employee tell me my rates were far too high and that I should halve them. I replied that I had already halved them as the person contracting with me was a friend. He went away.

    Cheers
    Roger
    Often friends, friendly associates, and neighbors get small jobs or modifications done for free or cheap, with promise of a particular favor or another. I always specify so its not like a MOB thing. LOL. There is less headache involved than listening to them whine if I tell them what its really worth. Its amazing how many of them are to busy or just forget when I need something. Its also amazing how many of them seem to think anything they want no matter how complicated should be equally priced in the future. It rarely ever pays to do favors or "help people out." I've met a few exceptions, but for most follow through is extremely rare.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
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    591

    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    "Sure, I'll help you bore a new cylinder head for your collectible muscle car. Just promise in return that, at some point, I may ask you to collect a dead body, and I will expect you to get it without delay."

    "You know, I *can* modify your upper receiver to do what you want, as long as you let my cousin use your living room for a chemistry experiment for a couple of days. Nothing major, just turning some cough syrup into party favors."

    Totally not a mob thing.

  14. #34
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    Oct 2008
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    2100

    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatte View Post
    "Sure, I'll help you bore a new cylinder head for your collectible muscle car. Just promise in return that, at some point, I may ask you to collect a dead body, and I will expect you to get it without delay."

    "You know, I *can* modify your upper receiver to do what you want, as long as you let my cousin use your living room for a chemistry experiment for a couple of days. Nothing major, just turning some cough syrup into party favors."

    Totally not a mob thing.
    Yeah, totally. LOL.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  15. #35
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    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    just turning some cough syrup into party favors.
    Your name is Fred or George maybe?

    Cheers
    Roger

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    1567

    Re: Tired of the Aluminum Collet Chuck Wrenches

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    Often friends, friendly associates, and neighbors get small jobs or modifications done for free or cheap, with promise of a particular favor or another. I always specify so its not like a MOB thing. LOL. There is less headache involved than listening to them whine if I tell them what its really worth. Its amazing how many of them are to busy or just forget when I need something. Its also amazing how many of them seem to think anything they want no matter how complicated should be equally priced in the future. It rarely ever pays to do favors or "help people out." I've met a few exceptions, but for most follow through is extremely rare.
    x2

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