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  1. #21
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi,
    without setup and tuning software you'll have to program it by hand, that is, push buttons on the drive to program all the required
    parameters.

    Post the manual.

    Craig

  2. #22
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi. What can we do, if on AMADA AE255nt (fanuc) appears alarms about servo system? code: 306. We changed all baterries. Not result.

  3. #23
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi Craig, My setup is 5 (1524mm) x 10(3048mm) feet and all ball screw y 4010 and x 2510 and z 1604 . 4 ac servo drive 1kw the 90st-04025 toauto fasttobuy . the technical that I know are very limited . that is why I will upload the manuel . Win 10 , mach4 hobby ,hardware controller card BM3 (cncroom) smooth stepper ethernet .My z cable is to short so I tried to make a extension but it not working the drive goes to alarm at the first command . You said that only 4 wires is need for making the drive usable in my case can you tell me wich one is needed.
    As you mention that is a pain in the ..... to program manualy I try to firnd software but can't find one . As a new servo user I seek for information to performe a good installation .

  4. #24
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi,
    geez......daytona19876 you really have made it hard for yourself, that manual is mainly in Chinese and the rest is 'Chinglish', and bad 'Chinglish at that.
    Did you really need to save a few dollars to buy these rather than the Delta brand I recommended?

    On page 17, 2.3 CN2 Control Interface,
    and subsequent pages show:
    Pin9 and Pin10 are the drive derived power supply and common return
    Pin6 called SigIn1 is by factory default is the ServoEnable input
    Pin7 called SigIn2 is by factory default the Reset input
    Pin2 and Pin14 are the Step input
    Pin4 and Pin5 are the Direction input
    Pin23 called SigOUT2 is Alarm output
    Pin24 called SigOUT4 is EmergencyStop output


    Note that the Step input and Direction input can be interpreted as CW/CCW or quadrature at your choice and programmed into the drive.
    Most hobby machines use Step/Direction and I suggest you do the same, and I would guess it is factory default. Note also that the inputs can be wired as
    EITHER open collector (also called single ended) OR differential inputs. Given that you have an MB3 breakout board and the Step/Direction outputs of the MB3
    are differential it makes sense to wire the Step/Direction inputs of the drive as differential as well. Thus you will need four wires, preferably as two twisted pairs
    to the input pins.

    Just as a matter of interest was the CN2 plug supplied? You will have to solder the wires in the plug and you will need a decent soldering iron and a steady hand.

    It is not clear to me what the difference between the EmergencyStop output and the Alarm output are, so I would wire both back to the breakout board until
    you work out what each does, you may in fact need both eventually.

    At my count that is 10 wires required, four for the two differential inputs, one each for Enable and Reset, and two for the alarm outputs an two for the drive derived
    power and common return.

    Once you have the ten wires soldered into the plug then you can start programming the drive.

    Craig.

  5. #25
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hey Craig , thanks for the reply , for the drive I didn't have read the post before I bought the drive they cost me 1100.00us all includ. If I knew ! but I have to with it so....
    toauto send a db 25 for the cn2 plug that I use for my drive , the machine move I can go left right on x yc z . for the e stop it will be plug on the MB3 card and from the card to each drive is the wiring that you give me before that should be install.
    I was wondering how to put the drive in speed and position mode so that the system becomes like a machine with stepper motors with encoding.
    I use the command pulse p+=3 p-=14 dir +=4 dir - = 14 as show on the top of 13 pages.
    on page 17 there are the connection for the cn1 that port is not use now and my drive is the standard version and came with RS-232 .

    Is that make sense for you ? I see some people use some kind of module for making rs 232 becomming rs 485 should it be a good avenue for that drive . As newby what is controling the drive with the mach 4 the cn1 or cn2 ?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJJO...RichardDenboer

    thanks Craig and have a nice day to you and all your family .

    Alain

  6. #26
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi,
    don't be alarmed, the To_Auto brand are perfectly OK, indeed they would have been considered very good if not state-of-the-art
    as short as ten-fifteen years ago. Brands like Delta and others have manufacturer provided set-up and tuning software and
    is very desirable but not essential.

    CN1 is a serial input port for Modbus control, and you won't be using it. You will signal the drive via CN2 from your MB3 breakout board
    which is in turn connected to the ESS and that in turn is connected to Mach4 residing in the PC.

    There are parameters in the drive which select the type of control that you want. I would guess that Step/Direction position control
    is the factory default and that is the mode that most closely resembles a stepper that you are familiar with. You can program that
    parameter by pushing the buttons on the drive like programming a microwave oven. Tedious and error prone but perfectly possible.

    Craig

  7. #27
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hello Craig
    The thing is that when I move the axes there are 3 parameters for who moves, (unit per cont, velocity and acceleration) if I go from 12000 to 25000 unit per cont it has no change I have to play with it the other two to see some modification. I only have to modify the PN (OOO a 004) to do this. But in your opinion which PN type parameter should I modify so that the software can properly operate the axes in RPM / inch per minute.
    there are more than 200 PN parameters, several can remain basic but others must change it is on those that I do not know which and which parameter their data. I'm not sure if I move the software around that the feed will do what it should. With Mach4 there is no more communication frequency and what we did with mach3 to find the right number (dial and 1 inch displacement) then we added or removed in variation with the real distance obtained. with mach4. Many questions and really not a lot of space to find the information, that's why I still say THANKS to you.
    Can we use the Delta software?
    Alain Roy

  8. #28
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi Alain,

    Can we use the Delta software?
    No, you cannot. Delta's software is specific to Delta, and that in order to use the software you must hook a programming cable from
    the PC (that runs the software) to the drive so the EPROM in the drive can be programed. Once it is programed you can take the
    cable away, its only purpose was to program the drive, and it may never be connected to the drive ever again. The communication between the drive
    and the PC is manufacturer specific.

    You have to program your drive by pushing buttons, very tedious and error prone though it maybe.

    You may recall setting up a stepper with Mach3 (the same as Mach4 be the way) and you had to flick switches in the drive to achieve the microstepping
    you wanted. Once that was set then you programmed Mach with the appropriate number of 'steps per unit' etc. You are going to do the same
    with your servos, but servos don't have micropsteppeing, they have something infinitely better called 'electronic gearing'.

    It confuses the hell out of first-timers but tough it out.

    We know that your encoder has 10,000 counts per revolution. Lets assume that the step input is 'natural' or 'native' so that if you pulse the
    step input 10,000 times the servo will rotate one revolution. Lets say you wish the servo to rotate at or near max rpm, say 3000 rpm or equivalently 50
    revs per sec. The ESS/BoB must produce 50 x 10,000 =500,000 pulses a second or 500kHz. The ESS and BoB should handle that no problems but what if your
    controller is a parallel port with Mach3 and only capable of 25kHz? Does that mean you cannot use servos with Mach3 and a parallel port?

    The answer is no. It would be very silly of any manufacturer to design a servo drive that required a high speed pulse stream as many potential customers
    have only low speed controllers. This is where electronic gearing comes into play. What you do is set two numbers in your drive, I believe with your ToAuto drives
    the numbers are integers ranging from 1 to 127. One number is the numerator, N, and the other is the denominator, D.

    The pulse applied to the drive get 'processed' by the electronic gearing unit and the resulting pulse stream is applied to the basic 10,000 count servo.
    With the number I've given:
    10000 x 1/42 = 238.1

    So if you applied 238 pulse (from the BoB) the servo would rotate on revolution, not the 10,000 as previously. I chose 42 for no other reason than to demonstrate
    the idea.

    Lets take another example but this time we will chose some numbers that relate to your machine. You posted earlier that you have a 1604 ballscrew for the Z axis,
    so the Z axis move 4mm per rev. If you want a resolution of 1um per step, just a good round number, then you want the servo to do one revolution when 4000 pulses are
    applied to the drive. Lets say N=4 and D=10.
    10000 x 4/10=4000.....too easy. Now your servo does one revolution for 4000 input pulses, and travels 4mm. The step/unit are 1000 step per mm....easy!!.

    So you see that electronic gearing is a bit like microstepping but you get a lot more choices. Once you decide on the electronic gearing you want, you set the drive
    parameters and then leave them alone, just like the microstepping switches on your stepper drive, set it once then forget it.

    Start with these:
    PN002=2 Location mode (in a better manual that would be called position mode)
    PN003=0 Servo is enabled by a digital input from the BoB
    PN004=0 Servo coasts to a halt when disabled
    PN006=0 Don't use either Fwd or Rev inhibit
    PN096=0 Step/Direction input
    PN103 leave as default of 500 for the moment, this is the following error. In CNC use this will probably be reduced down to 20 or less, but for tuning purposes leave at 500.

    Man....this manual is hard going!. I would leave the rest at default to start with. This will mean that the electronic gearing is 1:1 so you will need 10,00 pulse to cause one
    revolution of the servo.

    Craig

  9. #29
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi Craig
    I find new or english manuel for the drive .

    and more information , there are some variant between all the setup .
    China AC Servo (Step/Dir) | MUCK Solutions

  10. #30
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi,
    yes that manual is better but still far from good.

    What for instance is the meaning of 'molecules' in PN98 through PN102? I suspect that they are the denominators of four selectable
    electronic gear ratios.

    Delta servos have one programmable numerator and then up to four different denominators, one of which is selected for use by setting/unsetting of two digital inputs.
    In ToAutos case I think the numerator is PN102 butt they call it the denominator????

    What you have to do is set up the servo and use an auxillary pulse generator to generate a known pulse rate and experiment with the parameters until you understand
    how they work. This is real s****t. you shouldn't have to experiment just to work out the electronic gearing, this is an absolutely basic requirement of setting up any position
    mode servo, how can they make it that confusing and so poorly documented??

    Next time do yourself a favor and get some decent servos with a decent manual and most importantly manufacturers setup software.

    Maybe you should try and sell them....and then buy some better ones?.

    Craig

  11. #31
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hello Craig
    In the post # 23 I wonder how to connect pins # 6,7 23 and 24 on the BOB. If I understand they are outputs and in, I will plug them in as if they were outputs and enter on the Bob card. Pins # 9 and 10, I don't know. Do I connect the 12 vdc on these 2 pins of the Bob card up to the drive? I'm sorry but I see it like that, is it correct ?
    thanks

  12. #32
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi Craig
    All the wire are solder and plug . My MB3 configuration is done .
    With your setup nothing is moving . The pin 3 should replace pin 2 in step pulse input , it should be 3 and 14 .
    With the setup the PN 002=2 ,003=0 ,004=0, 006=0.... that is not working .
    It working with PN 003=1 ,004=1 and the rest of your setup it working .
    Now I am at 15000 count per unit... 200 velocity unit/minute and 50 acceleration unit/sec.square

  13. #33
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi Craig
    If we try with a ballscreew of 2510 , so 10 mm for one rev.
    10000x10/10=10000....

    Not so simple as you say ?

  14. #34
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi,

    It working with PN 003=1
    With that setting you effectively have no enable input to the drive, or perhaps more importantly no way to disable a servo.
    It is industry wide practice to have an enable/disable input.

    ,004=1
    PN004 determines how the servo stops when disabled or Estopped, with PN004=0 it coasts to a stop whereas PN004=1 the servo decelerates
    per the setting of PN005, and as PN005 defaults to 100 ms decel that is how you have set it up, minor matter.

    Now I am at 15000 count per unit... 200 velocity unit/minute and 50 acceleration unit/sec.square
    You are confusing the settings in Mach with the electronic gearing settings within the servo.

    You need to set the steps/unit, max velocity and max acceleration in Mach to some sensible numbers AND THEN LEAVE THEM ALONE.
    Now you experiment with the settings within the drive that effect electronic gearing and monitor encoder outputs if you desire them.
    Once you have experimented enough to know how your servo works then set the electronic gearing and LEAVE THEM ALONE.
    Now you go back to Mach and tweak the settings to your desired performance.

    What you don't want to do is start adjusting both lots of settings at once....you will end up hopelessly confused and in no state to choose optimum
    settings.

    Firstly do you use inch or metric units? Given that you have metric ballscrews then using metric units makes sense but is not mandatory.

    If you use metric then may I suggest that you use 1000 steps/unit, that is Machs resolution is 1um per step. I would suggest a max velocity such that the
    servo rotates at its max rotational speed, which I believe in your case is 2000rpm. With a 10mm pitch screw that equates to a velocity of 20,000 units/min.
    With these numbers I would set the acceleration to 2000 units/sec2. It is highly likely that the servo can do better than that but our aim is to choose
    Mach settings that make it possible to set and tune the servo and drive. You can go back later to make settings that you wish to use in practice.


    If you have not made any adjustments to the numerator and denominator settings within the drive then I would guess that they are both at default of 1.
    Therefore the electronic gearing is 1:1, and so 10,000 pulse are required to cause the servo to rotate one revolution. You can test that by issuing
    an MDI of: G0 X10. That should cause Mach to issue 10,000 pulse if you have used the Mach setting I recommended. The question now is 'did the servo indeed
    rotate one revolution?'. If it did, all well and good. If it did not you'll have to get down and dirty with the numerator/denominator settings (or molecules or
    whatever the Chinese call them).

    Craig

  15. #35
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,



    With that setting you effectively have no enable input to the drive, or perhaps more importantly no way to disable a servo.
    It is industry wide practice to have an enable/disable input.



    PN004 determines how the servo stops when disabled or Estopped, with PN004=0 it coasts to a stop whereas PN004=1 the servo decelerates
    per the setting of PN005, and as PN005 defaults to 100 ms decel that is how you have set it up, minor matter.



    You are confusing the settings in Mach with the electronic gearing settings within the servo.

    You need to set the steps/unit, max velocity and max acceleration in Mach to some sensible numbers AND THEN LEAVE THEM ALONE.
    Now you experiment with the settings within the drive that effect electronic gearing and monitor encoder outputs if you desire them.
    Once you have experimented enough to know how your servo works then set the electronic gearing and LEAVE THEM ALONE.
    Now you go back to Mach and tweak the settings to your desired performance.

    What you don't want to do is start adjusting both lots of settings at once....you will end up hopelessly confused and in no state to choose optimum
    settings.

    Firstly do you use inch or metric units? Given that you have metric ballscrews then using metric units makes sense but is not mandatory.

    If you use metric then may I suggest that you use 1000 steps/unit, that is Machs resolution is 1um per step. I would suggest a max velocity such that the
    servo rotates at its max rotational speed, which I believe in your case is 2000rpm. With a 10mm pitch screw that equates to a velocity of 20,000 units/min.
    With these numbers I would set the acceleration to 2000 units/sec2. It is highly likely that the servo can do better than that but our aim is to choose
    Mach settings that make it possible to set and tune the servo and drive. You can go back later to make settings that you wish to use in practice.


    If you have not made any adjustments to the numerator and denominator settings within the drive then I would guess that they are both at default of 1.
    Therefore the electronic gearing is 1:1, and so 10,000 pulse are required to cause the servo to rotate one revolution. You can test that by issuing
    an MDI of: G0 X10. That should cause Mach to issue 10,000 pulse if you have used the Mach setting I recommended. The question now is 'did the servo indeed
    rotate one revolution?'. If it did, all well and good. If it did not you'll have to get down and dirty with the numerator/denominator settings (or molecules or
    whatever the Chinese call them).

    Craig
    I think you are the one that is confused, the first thing he has to determine is the Electronic Gearing in the Servo Drive, then he can set the Steps Per in Mach3 you have it totally backwards which makes it more difficult to setup

    He needs to start at the Servo Drive and then the Control
    Mactec54

  16. #36
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi,
    in absence of a standalone pulse generator making the settings I have suggested allow Mach to be used as a pulse generator by issuing
    MDI commands.

    Otherwise you are correct, daytona needs to understand and use the electronic gearing in the servo drive and making some interim settings in Mach
    is a means to do so.

    Craig

  17. #37
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    in absence of a standalone pulse generator making the settings I have suggested allow Mach to be used as a pulse generator by issuing
    MDI commands.

    Otherwise you are correct, daytona needs to understand and use the electronic gearing in the servo drive and making some interim settings in Mach
    is a means to do so.

    Craig
    Most Servo Drives have the own pulse generator, it serves no purpose to use Mach3 you can test run most Servo Drives with ( 1 ) parameter and how many pulse's you want to use to rotate the motor shaft, this is much easier to get the Servo setup and working and then connect the Control He can play with the Electronic Gearing and see what it is doing all within the Servo Drive a lot easier
    Mactec54

  18. #38
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi Matec54,
    I've read the manual and can find no reference to a built in pulse generator.

    This manual is Chinglish and it is by no means clear what parameter is the denominator nor the numerator. Perhaps you could read it and de-mystify
    the situation. I am reasonably familiar with electronic gearing in Allen Bradley and Delta servos, and both use very similar terminology.
    My guess is that these ToAuto servos follow the same pattern but the manual is that poor its hard to decipher.

    My suggestion is to use Mach as a pulse source and experiment with the parameters in the drive until it is clear what each parameter does.

    When experimenting with my Delta servos I used my signal generator as a pulse source. With that and the Delta supplied set-up and tuning
    software programming the drives was easy...even fun. In absence of either a signal generator and manufacturers set-up software Daytona has a
    steep learning curve ahead.

    Craig

  19. #39
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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hey Craig
    I finally manage to do something with it . I setup Pn 102 as denominator and the Pn 98 99 100 101 are numerator.
    I put Pn 102 = 5 so it (1/5=0.200) and it seem that the screen 2510 make 1 turn .( I place a tape on the coupling ).
    Can I presume that it 10 mm linear move for one turn .
    My max speed is 2500RPM not 2000
    what do you think of it ? From there how the fine tuning is done ?

    alain

    https://maxcdn.cnczone.com/images/attach/jpg.gif

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    Re: Servo motor setup

    Hi,
    kool, you have made progress. Electronic gearing is often the most confusing aspect of setting up a servo for a first time user.
    Now that you have mastered it you can see the flexibility of application that it allows.

    What you need to decide now is what the electronic gearing should be to maximize the resolution without demanding ultra high pulse rates from your ESS/BoB
    and signaling circuitry. Then set it and leave it alone thereafter.

    Unless you need to 'tune' the servo.....your done. In most cases the manufacturers default settings are adequate unless you have a large inertial load.
    If the rotational inertia of the load (ballscrew, axis mass etc) is greater than about five times the rotational inertia of the armature of the servo then tuning
    becomes advisable.

    I would set the electronic gearing and then set up Mach for correct axis movement and then do some machining. If there is need to tune the servos it will become
    evident, but most likely will not be required.

    Craig

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