[sansbury]

Hi all and thanks in advance for any insights.

I'm considering adding a router table to my shop and am debating between a few different machines. Until now I've been mostly a machine shop with a Tormach 1100 and manual lathe, but would like to add the ability to work with wood and other sheet goods like acrylic or metal for enclosures and the like.

Right now I'm comparing build options for a CNCRP Pro series machine with the VFD spindle versus the Tormach 24R. I've also sort-of considered the Shopbot Buddy series.

Questions I have:

- 24x48 vs. 48x48 vs. 5x5: Right now a 2x4 table feels like plenty but I have the space for a larger machine. The 4x4 is only about $600 more while the 5x is ~$1500. I assume that the 5x requires mostly different parts, so if I wanted to go that way I'd want to do it from the get-go. If I'm not doing a lot of work with Baltic birch, is there any reason to go for the 5x?

- NEMA 23 vs. 34: Besides higher speeds, are there any reasons to prefer the 34-frame motors? My work is very low volume prototyping, so fast rapids don't mean a lot to me and the 23-size motors and drives save ~$1k.

- LinuxCNC vs. Mach4: I've always used LinuxCNC (eventually upgraded to PathPilot on the Tormach) and prefer it. The CNCRP motor/drive kits seem speced for Mach4 with the Smoothstepper. Has anyone adapted CNCRP's pre-wired drive cabinet for LinuxCNC (with or without something like a Mesa card) or would I have to roll my own here?

- Vacuum table: The Tormach has a checkbox option to add the Black Box Storm vacuum system for ~$2k. Has anybody adapted this or a similar system for the CNCRP machines? I've learned in machining that flexible, fast-setup workholding is often worth the expense.

Thanks in advance!

[PapaLima]

We have a Pro 24x24 with the NEA 23's and have had zero problems. It has cut anything I could have asked and probably much faster then I have it going now.
It is pretty easy to add "ballast/weight" to the Pro's given their open construction.

As far as the size, get as big as you can afford and have room for. The Pro's can be lengthened really easily but not the width so maybe go with the 5x5 to start. I know for us there are a lot of times I wish I had bigger, but just don't have the space.

We still run Mach3 with the 2010 screenset to automate the tool changes as much as possible. From what I can gather Mach4 doesn't quite have it yet but don't hold me to that.

The other thing you might want to consider is the cncdepot S30 BT30 spindle. I wish I would have known about it when I bought ours as I would have jumped on it. At least for me, tool changes drive me nuts, but the 2010 screenset has made it a lot better with auto touch offs.

And now you can easily add the 4th axis to the Avid machines.

I can't say enough about Avid customer support.

[Steve303]

I have neither of the machines you are asking about but If you will be cutting Baltic Birch and have the room you may want to consider a 5x5 foot Router table. My CNC Router cuts 30" x 48" and often wish I had a full 5 foot x 5 foot cutting area. I cut a lot of Baltic Birch and it is only sold locally in 5x5 foot sheets. It would be great not having to cut each sheet in half before use.

[dgage]

We build home theater subwoofers and cut 5x5 Baltic Birch plywood 2 at a time with our 5x10 CNCRP Pro machine. To me, I’m not sure if these are really comparable. One is a kit and one is prebuilt. Some people just want something to work and want support and if that is the case, the Tormach is the easy choice. If you choose the CNCRP, you’re helping build the machine and making sure it is built well and accurately though CNCRP/Avid give great support. For the same money, you can get a much larger machine in the CNCRP so it just depends on what you want. The only thing I miss for our machine is a auto tool changer but you’d have to roll your own solution for the CNCRP. But a nice ATC machine would have been double the cost as I was looking at the Camaster Cobra. We’ll probably upgrade one of these years but until then, the CNCRP machine is making us money and sits more than it works because we can cut an 18” sub in 30-45 minutes and that is with some intricate parts. So we’re not yet busy enough to even be pushing our current machine.

[kinghong1970]

i have a older CNCRP 2448 system and now that i'm using it more often... i kinda wish it was wider...

[sansbury]

In case anyone else was wondering, I emailed Avid and got quick and (partially) clear answers:

1. Cost to extend the table is "typically only 50-100 more" than the price difference between the kits, so there's no huge penalty to going with a 24x48 now and upgrading to a 48 or 96 later. Not sure if I'd do enough work with Baltic birch to justify a 5-foot table which is significantly more expensive.

2. They do allow returning the Smoothstepper for refund if I wanted to re-wire the control for LinuxCNC, but their focus is on providing a true turnkey control. That makes sense, and if I do go this way I'll probably just wire up my own.

3. There doesn't seem to be an "official" solution for a vacuum table so I'll have to dig around more to understand what a DIY setup would entail.

The CNCDepot spindle is an interesting option, though at ~2k more it's a bit of an investment, and I get a little antsy buying something like that from a tiny company that could disappear anytime and leave me with a brick if I needed support. Also I get the impression you typically use a lot fewer tools on a typical router job versus the mill. I wouldn't want to have to re-zero every tool change on my Tormach 1100, where almost every part involves a half-dozen tools.

[wmgeorge]

The work envelope on the 48x48 machine is more like 49x49 + and I know you LinuxCNC users are kind of a cult but I run Mach4 and ESS on mine and no issues. I got the Pro pre wired panel and NEMA34 motors and it just works. It depends, do you want to make parts or build and trouble shoot? I know guys that the build to perfection was the goal, but now what?

[sansbury]

Can you run Dropbox or have the PC connected to the ‘net with Mach+ESS now or is it still a crapshoot like it was in the Mach 2/3 days? I started running LinuxCNC around 2008 and never looked back. If I don’t need to switch now then I’m not going to!

[ger21]

I've had my PC on my home network for 10 years, running Mach3 and the parallel port with no issues at all.

[wmgeorge]

Can you run Dropbox or have the PC connected to the ‘net with Mach+ESS now or is it still a crapshoot like it was in the Mach 2/3 days? I started running LinuxCNC around 2008 and never looked back. If I don’t need to switch now then I’m not going to!

I have been running computers since MS DOS and have no issues with Windows< Mach3/4 and ESS because I know what to do. I gave up on Linux a long time ago because I need to run real programs. Let me know how Fusion360 or Aspire / VCarve Pro runs on Linux, native that is.

[mountaindew]

In case anyone else was wondering, I emailed Avid and got quick and (partially) clear answers:

1. Cost to extend the table is "typically only 50-100 more" than the price difference between the kits, so there's no huge penalty to going with a 24x48 now and upgrading to a 48 or 96 later. Not sure if I'd do enough work with Baltic birch to justify a 5-foot table which is significantly more expensive.

2. They do allow returning the Smoothstepper for refund if I wanted to re-wire the control for LinuxCNC, but their focus is on providing a true turnkey control. That makes sense, and if I do go this way I'll probably just wire up my own.

3. There doesn't seem to be an "official" solution for a vacuum table so I'll have to dig around more to understand what a DIY setup would entail.

The CNCDepot spindle is an interesting option, though at ~2k more it's a bit of an investment, and I get a little antsy buying something like that from a tiny company that could disappear anytime and leave me with a brick if I needed support. Also I get the impression you typically use a lot fewer tools on a typical router job versus the mill. I wouldn't want to have to re-zero every tool change on my Tormach 1100, where almost every part involves a half-dozen tools.

Couple notes from the cheep seats
Faster is better! You may not be cutting at high speeds but setting offsets, changing tools and programmed moves to engage cutters most the time travel long distances. The 24r runs at 200 ipm rapids and is what I would call the minimum!

Installing a vacuum table does not look to be very complicated depending on current base of machine. 24r vac table is made from 2 layers of phenolic plastic board and for the most part could be machined on the router itself if sized inside the gantry travel. I didn't order vac system with machine because lack of information. I needed to do more research on how they perform at high altitude and if I could work with the unit size after the machine was in place. Now that I know more I will be ordering one in near future.

Tool changes are slow and somewhat tedious. And maybe its a habit but I cant get much done without 3-4 tools . 1 : Surface op, 2 : rough /finish ops, 3: rest /finish op, 4: chamfer op
This is a minimum for me and I use large diameter tools also for roughing to cut large amounts of time off op cycle. Then switch to smaller and smaller cutters to finish. I could do it all with one tool but op times can be long.
Setting tool heights is simple and mostly automated with a e.t.s. In the Sprutcam post when a tool is changed it calls g37 and spindle goes up and over to e.t.s. prompts for change. Then goes down and sets new tool height, then back to work area. I would think this would be in the other posts for aspire, fusion.....

Hope this helps a little from a new b

Note on windows 7. My understanding there is no new hardware supported for this o.s. PERIOD. And the only way to use this o.s going forward for personal or machine control is in old used computers or keep fixing the one its in.
Maybe its just me but running a NEW high dollar cnc machine seams silly on an old white box with an unsupported o.s. Leaving only windows 10 and Linux going into future. Windows 10 for cadcam, general work and controls and Linux for control and network BTW : I have a Master msdos 1.02 disk on a 5.25 floppy in closet

[wmgeorge]

Windows 7 Pro runs my machine, keep it off the internet and it will be fine for many years to come.

[Ceridwen]

I'm considering adding a router table to my shop and am debating between a few different machines. Until now I've been mostly a machine shop with a Tormach 1100 and manual lathe, but would like to add the ability to work with wood and other sheet goods like acrylic or metal for enclosures and the like.
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