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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Tormach Personal CNC Mill > Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.
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  1. #1
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    Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    I occassionally need to surface parts approaching (and sometimes exceeding) the full work envelope of the 1100.

    The Super Fly does a nice job surfacing aluminum, except that when I have to enter a work piece vertically it leaves a deeper groove. I was wondering if there was a trick to eliminate that. I am sure the reason is the shape of the insert. When it enters a work piece vertically it digs in and pulls itsefl in, but when it enters horizontally the 45 degree lead angle pushes back and overcomes that.

    The only thing I can think of that might help would be a really long ramp to depth. I already know a short ramp to depth still leaves a groove, although not as bad as a vertical engagement. I was getting ready to walk out to the machine and wreck some stock to see what I could figure out, and then I realized I can't possibley be the first 1100 owner to have to figure out how to overcome this. Would anybody care to leave some suggestions?
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  2. #2
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    I've never plunged my superfly! I've had other dig-in problems affecting finish, though. Rough the entry area to .002" of final, so there's not a lot to grip onto and dig in?

  3. #3
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    That's a good idea. I'll try that right now.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  4. #4
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    I occassionally need to surface parts approaching (and sometimes exceeding) the full work envelope of the 1100.

    The Super Fly does a nice job surfacing aluminum, except that when I have to enter a work piece vertically it leaves a deeper groove. I was wondering if there was a trick to eliminate that. I am sure the reason is the shape of the insert. When it enters a work piece vertically it digs in and pulls itsefl in, but when it enters horizontally the 45 degree lead angle pushes back and overcomes that.

    The only thing I can think of that might help would be a really long ramp to depth. I already know a short ramp to depth still leaves a groove, although not as bad as a vertical engagement. I was getting ready to walk out to the machine and wreck some stock to see what I could figure out, and then I realized I can't possibley be the first 1100 owner to have to figure out how to overcome this. Would anybody care to leave some suggestions?
    You should never plunge any type of flycutter they are designed to do that type of machining a slow ramp down with light cuts will get you going without the cutting digging in deeper than it should, can you not start from the Y axis and arc in or is your part bigger than the travel you have in the Y axes as well
    Mactec54

  5. #5
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You should never plunge any type of flycutter they are designed to do that type of machining a slow ramp down with light cuts will get you going without the cutting digging in deeper than it should, can you not start from the Y axis and arc in or is your part bigger than the travel you have in the Y axes as well
    Thanks for the recap. No I can't come in from any edge. I would have if I could, but thanks.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  6. #6

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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    You need to do a roughing pass much higher than where it needs to be, then finish it to size. I use the Superfly to face fixture plate that's exactly the XY envelope of my 770. The 770 being less rigid also means that a plunge entry or a bigger DOC would cause it to cut deeper as the tool gets pulled down with the positive rake inserts.

    Getting it to face a fixture plate flat to 0.01mm (0.0004") is possible with the rough+finish strategy.

  7. #7
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    If you working at the machine travel limits, I would look at using a 4 flute 2" ripper mill for a helix entry. Stable cutting with polished inserts produce low cutting forces. Leave .005" for finish pass. If your mill is tram is good, will leave a stellar finish.

  8. #8
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    On this last one I took two passes. First at .008 and second at .002. It worked "good enough" I can see the start point of the fly cutter, but I can't feel it with a finger nail.

    Somebody suggested grinding or polishing an insert to have less back rake so it doesn't dig in as much. Its not a bad idea, but when I needed to rotate or replace the insert I'd surely forget.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  9. #9
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    Quote Originally Posted by AUSTINMACHINING View Post
    If you working at the machine travel limits, I would look at using a 4 flute 2" ripper mill for a helix entry. Stable cutting with polished inserts produce low cutting forces. Leave .005" for finish pass. If your mill is tram is good, will leave a stellar finish.
    Interestingly... when I set up the Tormach I took my time and leveled it, but started cutting immediately. I never checked tram, just noted that it seemed to be good enough. A few weeks ago I was smoke testing the height of my height setter by bumping down a spinning tool a tenth at a time until it made a mark on some stock. Under 3x magnification the circle was as perfectly uniform as I am capable of seeing.

    Ripper Mill? Like this? https://www.latheinserts.com/RIPPER-MILLS_c86.htm I thought the secret of the great finish with the Super Fly was the wide flat on the SEH inserts. The low tear out is from the 45 degree lead angle.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  10. #10
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    How far out does the tool protrude on superfly? Maybe if it was pulled in a bit it would help. I've never done plunge cuts with mine, so I can't help out there.

  11. #11
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    Quote Originally Posted by burbingus View Post
    How far out does the tool protrude on superfly? Maybe if it was pulled in a bit it would help. I've never done plunge cuts with mine, so I can't help out there.

    That is a valid thought. I have considered that, but I have several recipes worked up for it using the current diameter. I click the geometry, select the operation I need, and CAM is finished. Another thing I have been thinking about is making a solid steel one piece fat body mini single flute face mill using this insert for my Hurco mill because I like the finish so much. It would be no more work to do something similar for the Tormach. I've already made a few tools/toolholders for it. Its not hard to get them right. I just make them all in one setup on the lathe.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  12. #12
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    Bob,
    Have you tried to helical or ramp it into the part so that you are not just plunging?

  13. #13
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    Interestingly... when I set up the Tormach I took my time and leveled it, but started cutting immediately. I never checked tram, just noted that it seemed to be good enough. A few weeks ago I was smoke testing the height of my height setter by bumping down a spinning tool a tenth at a time until it made a mark on some stock. Under 3x magnification the circle was as perfectly uniform as I am capable of seeing.

    Ripper Mill? Like this? https://www.latheinserts.com/RIPPER-MILLS_c86.htm I thought the secret of the great finish with the Super Fly was the wide flat on the SEH inserts. The low tear out is from the 45 degree lead angle.
    Yes,
    Thats the on . I bought it for high MRR, but it also leaves a nice finish. I only have a good picture form my Brother S500, but it looked good off my Novakon as well bottom pic
    Attachment 436424

  14. #14
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    I went through 3 superflys
    They left a nice finish but inevitably would catch an edge and spin in the collet Or bend their arm enough to be toast
    I ended up getting a Mari tool 3.25” 6-tooth face mill and it has been wonderful
    There’s several videos in how to set them up with tts collars
    As a bonus they use the affordable inserts like the super fly does (if you buy them on eBay)
    Not as mirror finish as the super fly but super reliable and nice finish.
    The super fly flexes so much, that is what is causing your plunge line



    QUOTE=Bob La Londe;2354622]I occassionally need to surface parts approaching (and sometimes exceeding) the full work envelope of the 1100.

    The Super Fly does a nice job surfacing aluminum, except that when I have to enter a work piece vertically it leaves a deeper groove. I was wondering if there was a trick to eliminate that. I am sure the reason is the shape of the insert. When it enters a work piece vertically it digs in and pulls itsefl in, but when it enters horizontally the 45 degree lead angle pushes back and overcomes that.

    The only thing I can think of that might help would be a really long ramp to depth. I already know a short ramp to depth still leaves a groove, although not as bad as a vertical engagement. I was getting ready to walk out to the machine and wreck some stock to see what I could figure out, and then I realized I can't possibley be the first 1100 owner to have to figure out how to overcome this. Would anybody care to leave some suggestions?[/QUOTE]

    - - - Updated - - -

    I went through 3 superflys
    They left a nice finish but inevitably would catch an edge and spin in the collet Igor bend their arm enough to be toast
    I ended up getting a Mari tool 3.25” 6-tooth face mill and it has been
    There’s several videos in how to set them up with tts collars
    As a bonus they use the affordable inserts like the super fly does (if you buy them on eBay)
    Nor as mirror finish as the super fly but super reliable and nice finish.
    The super fly flexes so much, that is what is causing your plunge line



    QUOTE=Bob La Londe;2354622]I occassionally need to surface parts approaching (and sometimes exceeding) the full work envelope of the 1100.

    The Super Fly does a nice job surfacing aluminum, except that when I have to enter a work piece vertically it leaves a deeper groove. I was wondering if there was a trick to eliminate that. I am sure the reason is the shape of the insert. When it enters a work piece vertically it digs in and pulls itsefl in, but when it enters horizontally the 45 degree lead angle pushes back and overcomes that.

    The only thing I can think of that might help would be a really long ramp to depth. I already know a short ramp to depth still leaves a groove, although not as bad as a vertical engagement. I was getting ready to walk out to the machine and wreck some stock to see what I could figure out, and then I realized I can't possibley be the first 1100 owner to have to figure out how to overcome this. Would anybody care to leave some suggestions?[/QUOTE]

  15. #15
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    I do have a 1" 2 flute with a 3/4 shank I use for steel with the coated inserts. I had not even thought of using it with uncoated for aluminum. I guess its worth a shot.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  16. #16

    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    Again, not a Tormach owner, but I have great luck with a 2" 4 flute round insert shell mill on aluminum. It bolted right to a TTS ATC holder of some variety, I can't recall which, but somebody here provided a link. It can eat up horsepower pretty quick, but finish is superb when running right.

  17. #17
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    Quote Originally Posted by CL_MotoTech View Post
    Again, not a Tormach owner, but I have great luck with a 2" 4 flute round insert shell mill on aluminum. It bolted right to a TTS ATC holder of some variety, I can't recall which, but somebody here provided a link. It can eat up horsepower pretty quick, but finish is superb when running right.
    There are TTS arbors that fit shell and face mills.

    Eating horsepower is an issue. The 1100 is a decent "benchtop" mlll but its still in that class. At the top end, but its not as rigid as a big floor model bed mill, and of course the 1.5HP spindle has its limits.

    The next time I run a batch job or large piece that pushes the work envelope I'm going to try the 1" face mill I have. It should be enough to atleast overlap all the edges.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com

  18. #18

    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    I don't know the specs on the Tormach, but I run a 2.2kw BLDC. They say it's almost 3hp, but I run my spindle 1:1, so while I might be HP rich I am definitely sacrificing torque. I can run that 2" face mill pretty hard, but I have overheated my motor and it goes into overheat protection. And my G0704 is such a wimp that it gives up much over like .0025" depth cuts., a .008" cut with the 2" face mill would wreck the thing. I'd find it on my neighbors lawn. I've also got to stay at like 25% step over. The joys of these small machines...

    Some day I'll get a divorce, buy a large warehouse, install a 20 ton VMC and small apartment, and live happily ever after. It's the American dream!

  19. #19
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    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    Quote Originally Posted by CL_MotoTech View Post
    Again, not a Tormach owner, but I have great luck with a 2" 4 flute round insert shell mill on aluminum. It bolted right to a TTS ATC holder of some variety, I can't recall which, but somebody here provided a link. It can eat up horsepower pretty quick, but finish is superb when running right.
    Can you identify that shell mill or provide a photo? Are the inserts round themselves?

  20. #20

    Re: Super Fly (Mostly Good) but doesn't plunge well.

    Oh boy, I bought it quite a long time back. I know it uses this insert; rpmw1003mo.

    Yes the inserts are round.

    The shell came with name brand inserts, but I've been running Chinese knockoffs with great success. For the record, I've only gone through 12 inserts in something like 3 years. In aluminum it is hard to hurt them. Usually it's the vise or something harder that i've not programmed for that ruins an insert.

    The really nice thing about round inserts is that you can turn them like 15 degrees and get a nice fresh edge, so you get loads of insert life. The bad part is that it's hard to gauge how much insert you have in the metal, and that depth of cut greatly changes chip thinning. I tend to run the shell at like .0025" DOC which is around 6% engagement, I think for round inserts you want to stay under 10% as chip thinning drastically decreases after that. But you should probably research it. It's been some time since I've reviewed it all.

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