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IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Stepper Motors / Drives > From NEMA 27 to NEMA 34 and voltage type selection
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  1. #21
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    Mar 2019
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    Re: From NEMA 27 to NEMA 34 and voltage type selection

    Now with the math fixed it make a lot more sense
    Thank you for such detailed explanation.

    I will start upgrade axis per axis and see how this turn, not sure if i will benefit with a servo on Z, time will tell... Set kernel to 200Khz to be compatible with steppers that i already have at 2.5us frequency width drivers.
    Now i start fear machine crashes, no limit stops yet, and all this talk make me think servos when heavy crash into limits will destroy my machine ^^
    After this upgrade i think i need a better reinforced structure, bad side is all soldered steel and low margin to work with, but i'm always looking to improve my machines even if is overkill like the servos, its addicting. Also i just done my camera crosshair adaptor to find XY which work very well and no more guessing. (Attachments)

    BTW i followed your advice on AXBB-E from the other post, and it's amazing, a really step up. My works finish faster even when using same speeds compared to mach3 ltp (500 accelaration and 2000 velocity), the movement looks way better and smoother, increased accelaration without much shaking when mach3 was shaking way more, can use PC without problem. It also made me buy a dGPU due lack of performance, UCCNC defeated the CPU with openGL even on idle, so had to thrown a dGPU to it but all worth
    Pictures from my first job with AXBB-E and a short video: https://www.forum.cncdrive.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2438

  2. #22
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    Re: From NEMA 27 to NEMA 34 and voltage type selection

    Hi,
    I've never used UCCNC products having always favored Mach4 and Ethernet SmoothStepper.

    I had the same thing happen when I stepped up from a parallel port to the ESS, a lot smoother, so much so that I could increase axis speeds by 33%
    without losing steps and have the steppers run quieter and cooler.

    Delta servos are another quantum leap.

    Craig

  3. #23
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    Mar 2019
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    51

    Re: From NEMA 27 to NEMA 34 and voltage type selection

    Servo is on the way

    As the ABXX-E have no differential pair output, does it worth to buy a module (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33013825383.html) and use? It have any other benefit than signaling at higher frequency and resolution which on my case is 400Khz?
    I see the "Max. input pulse frequency is 500kpps" for differential pair, as your Ethernet SmoothStepper is 4Mhz fixed is not that causing more bad than good? Having more than the input allows?
    About max. velocity at 3000rpms what is the math to calculate speed in mm/m? My setup is direct drive with 16mm leadscrew, 5mm pitch.
    Can i ask what accelaration and speed you use on your delta?

    PS: Today i tested my 3d printed servo template, the rotating on X will work, just need to enlarge the center hole but that's ok. Already done an drill template to do new screw holes so it will align better.

    https://i.imgur.com/xUq9kue.png

  4. #24
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    Re: From NEMA 27 to NEMA 34 and voltage type selection

    Hi,
    As the ABXX-E have no differential pair output, does it worth to buy a module
    To date I have not had the need to use differential signaling, and I wouldn't be buying a board anyway, I would make my own.
    The single ended 24V signaling rate to a Delta drive is 200kHz, which IS PLENTY FAST ENOUGH for me.

    As you point out the max kernel speed of the ABXX-E is only 400kHz so you are not going to get a huge benefit even if you do
    use differential signaling. The max differential signaling rate is 500kHz, so to my way of thinking we're not really missing much
    by using up to 200kHz.

    The 4Mhz is the maximum of what the ESS 'could' produce, and might be appropriate for fibre optic signaling but is not in my realm.
    All I require is that the ESS produces a good clean signal at up to 200kHz and it does that easy, that it could do way more is immaterial.

    About max. velocity at 3000rpms what is the math to calculate speed in mm/m? My setup is direct drive with 16mm leadscrew, 5mm pitch.
    Easy:
    MaxLinearSpeed(at 3000rm)= 3000 x 5mm
    =15,000 mm/min or 15m/min.

    Note that the 'rated' speed is 3000, that is to say the maximum speed at which the servo can produce rated torque. You can make the servo go faster in 'field weakening'
    mode, up to 5000rm. At 5000rpm the torque will have dropped to about 75% of rated. You could have rapid traverses with the servo at 5000rpm or 25m/min with a 5mm screw.
    Max G1's, that is cutting speed where you want rated torque for max thrust would still be 15m/min.


    Can i ask what accelaration and speed you use on your delta?
    To date I have fitted just one 400W Delta servo to my existing mini mill, the Z axis. I bought this servo to experiment with and to replace the
    5 phase Vexta stepper just to see how well it works. In short its superb. The X and Y axes of the same machine are still 5 phase Vextas and I have them
    set for 375mm/s2. I have had them much MUCH higher (2000mm/s2+) but then my machine throws itself around the room.
    Unless I tie it to the wall I find 375mm/s2 is adequate.

    With the 400 Delta servo I've had the Z axis acceleration up to 10000mm/s2, but given that the X and Y axes are much slower the Z axis tends
    to slow to match them. All I can really say is that when direct coupled to a 20 mm ballscrew of 5mm pitch it can accelerate from zero to 3000rpm in a few
    tenths of a second, its scary fast!!!

    I have bought three 750W Delta servos for my new build mill, and I have not fitted them to the machine yet. As of Monday the foundry casting the mill beds
    for me reported that they had been poured and they were awaiting transport to be fettled. I hope to have them next week.

    I suspect that you will like me find that the acceleration and speed that these servos are capable of is much higher than I am comfortable that I can control.
    My new mill build will be an interesting test, the beds are 75 kg of cast iron each, so there will be a lot of mass moving!!

    Craig

  5. #25
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    Re: From NEMA 27 to NEMA 34 and voltage type selection

    I'm currently at 600mm/s2 and 2000mm/m with the steppers.
    I'm not aware of my machine weight, but to lift it it required 4 man, and that was already painfull and dangerous to move and lift. So i guess it's arround 200KG+/-

    I have had them much MUCH higher (2000mm/s2+) but then my machine throws itself around the room.
    That make me laugh so hard
    I tried 2000mm/s2 once, did some manual moves and see no big difference, but i can only go 2000mm/m i also guess it's not a big deal.

    Z axis acceleration up to 10000mm/s2.
    All I can really say is that when direct coupled to a 20 mm ballscrew of 5mm pitch it can accelerate from zero to 3000rpm in a few
    tenths of a second, its scary fast!!!
    Wow thats crazy high, the numbers are much big with servos, and seens like candy for 3D toolpath...
    My imagination is seeing spindle ejected to the outer space


    I suspect that you will like me find that the acceleration and speed that these servos are capable of is much higher than I am comfortable that I can control.
    Yeah, giving i have an open router it's seens scary to operate near by when using any of the insane values. May i press the "Start Cycle" and run?

    My new mill build will be an interesting test, the beds are 75 kg of cast iron each, so there will be a lot of mass moving!!
    My bed is laminated steel plate a bit more than 600x900x8mm it's dam heavy, still spindle can deflect it without any trouble, supported only by a square frame, center is empty. Need to fix that when have the chance and do a grid to support it better. Woodworking doesn't deflect but this machine can have better plans. Once i saw deflection on a aluminium pluge.

    Anyway thank you for your information, very usefull.

  6. #26
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    Mar 2019
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    51

    Re: From NEMA 27 to NEMA 34 and voltage type selection

    Got my servo some days ago.
    Have finished the instalation today, but when i try to jog axis nothing happen.

    I just changed these parameters on driver by hand since i don't have cable yet:

    P2-15 = 0
    P2-16 = 0
    P2-17 = 0
    P1-44 = 40
    P1-45 = 1
    On UCCNC i have kernel set to 200KHz and steps per unit to 200
    UCCNC screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/QYkD7lS.jpg

    I have tried the two wiring options but result in same
    https://i.imgur.com/kCaqC5x.png

    Currently I'm with 3 wires: /SIGN connected to O1 and /PULSE to O2, EXT 24V to PULL_HIGH
    I also tried exchange O2 with O1 pins but nothing happens.
    Driver LCD shows 000000

    NOTE: O1 and O2 are 24V isolated output NPN

    I'm missing something?

    EDIT: I read that "The O1 output is controlled by a charge pump circuit, it won't work as a standard output."
    So i've offset outputs to /SIGN connected to O2 and /PULSE to O3
    But still nothing, servo don't do any noise and doesn't heat

  7. #27
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    Re: From NEMA 27 to NEMA 34 and voltage type selection

    Ok it seens i need to activate servo first, i use P02-30 set to 1 and it works, but as soon i restart power i need to do it again...
    Which pin on CN1 i must short with to always activate servo?
    Other question i have is when i stuck servo into a limit a error will trigger and servo got disabled, how to reenable and clear error without restart power?

  8. #28
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    4280

    Re: From NEMA 27 to NEMA 34 and voltage type selection

    Hi,
    I'm not clear about what servo and drive you have.

    With Delta servo drives you can have up to eight digital inputs which are programmaticalloy defined.
    That sounds like a lot but you ae effectively required to dedicate one input as a servo enable signal and unless
    you wish or would tolerate a power-off reset procedure you need another input for Reset after a fault.

    Note that because you can programaticaly assign these inputs and that you can also assign them to different pins
    in the connector. As you can imagine programming via push-button on the drive is difficult.....you really need
    the programming cable and use the software. All of the current pin assignments are imediately viewable and there
    is significant context sensitive help about all the different choices you might make.

    Craig

  9. #29
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    Mar 2019
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    51

    Re: From NEMA 27 to NEMA 34 and voltage type selection

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    I'm not clear about what servo and drive you have.
    ASD-B2-0421-B + ECMA-C20604RS

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    With Delta servo drives you can have up to eight digital inputs which are programmaticalloy defined.
    That sounds like a lot but you ae effectively required to dedicate one input as a servo enable signal and unless
    you wish or would tolerate a power-off reset procedure you need another input for Reset after a fault.
    Is not possible short GND to one of that inputs in CN1 to always have it active by default (Manual shows DI1, so DI1-COM-)? Or i really need to tie it to the AXBB and use the enable pin?
    Also which pin sends the emergency stop signal and can i short it with my emergency stop button wire at axbb to spare a input? Manual says default is DO5, thats correct?

    https://i.imgur.com/9SeBj0K.png

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Note that because you can programaticaly assign these inputs and that you can also assign them to different pins
    in the connector. As you can imagine programming via push-button on the drive is difficult.....you really need
    the programming cable and use the software. All of the current pin assignments are imediately viewable and there
    is significant context sensitive help about all the different choices you might make.
    I order that cable months ago, but it got lost in delivery, i have to reorder another, every package now is so slow to arrive...

    PS: Servo is amazing, complety silent! And very fast, but AXBB-E limits max speed to 14200, higher than that the software pull it down to 14200 again

  10. #30
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    Re: From NEMA 27 to NEMA 34 and voltage type selection

    Hi,
    OK, that is the same drive as I have.

    Is not possible short GND to one of that inputs in CN1 to always have it active by default (Manual shows DI1, so DI1-COM-)? Or i really need to tie it to the AXBB and use the enable pin?
    Yes you can pull it high (or low) and thereby cause the servo drive to be permanently enabled. I intend (as I am still building my new mill) to have one Enable signal line (from my controller) that enables
    all three drives. I also intend on having one Reset signal (from my controller) which connects to all three drives. Note that Delta drives tolerate an already active drive receiving a Reset signal. Some brands
    a Reset to an already active drive would cause a fault.

    As far as various fault signalling schemes Delta drives are very flexible.

    Lets start with limit signals. With most Mach systems, and I imagine similar to UCCNC, limit switches are connected directly to the controller. A limit event will cause the machine to stop.
    Delta drives (and incidentally most other modern AC drives) offer another alternative. You can hook a ++limit switch and a --limit switch direct to two inputs on the drive. Should a limit
    event occur the servo will stop, either a crash stop or controlled deceleration at your program choice, and also propagate a LimitEvent signal on one of the drive digital outputs
    to signal to the controller that a limit event has occurred. If you are required to jog the servo back within limits the drive will know not to allow you to jog++ when the axis is already
    exceeded the ++limit, but will allow you to jog--.

    You might ask 'why would Delta bother to add complexity to their drive in the form of limit signals and logic when my controller can do it?'
    The main reason is that Delta drives are capable of being used in a distributed motion control solution. With such a system you do not have a motion controller at all, your PC is the trajectory planner
    and via EtherCat or CanOpen that data is signalled to each drive, and each drive is responsible for controlling its own motion. Thus each drive must be able to handle and control its own
    limit and home events. EtherCat is a recent feature addition in Mach4 but is not available with UCCNC.

    Technically we do not need the limit handling built in to the drive but I point it out that you may see some of the power and flexibility of the drive.
    If you had limited input pins on your controller then having drive handle limits might be an advantage. Instead of two inputs (++ and --)being required
    for each axis, you would require now only one, namely the LimitEvent signal. I know that most people combine ++ and -- limits to just one input but then you lose
    the capability of determining which way to jog the axis. As the servos are so fast and powerful having a mechanism that absolutely prevents you from jogging in the
    wrong direction seems worthwhile to me. I have not decided which method (drive handles limits and jogs verses the controller handling the limits and use a software interlock to prevent
    erroneous jogs) to employ on my machine. Given that the drive handled signals are hardwired in the drive they would be less subject to programming error.

    Now with respect to other fault conditions, I refer you to 7-98 to 7-100 of the manual. There are a number of fault conditions which are combined to one output ALRM.
    It is also possible to have fault events signalled separately on different pins. Your controller or control software could handle faults in different ways.
    For instance you might decide that Overcurrent, Overvoltage, OverHeat should cause a machine wide EStop. You might decide that if you get a FollowingError fault
    your machine software would execute a FeedHold event and thereby prevent loss of HomeReference that occurs with an EStop event.

    This multilevel fault signalling is much more sophisticated than you or I as hobbyists are used to but are common in industrial practice.
    I have yet to decide what level of sophistication of fault signalling I will adopt but I suspect I will opt for the solution above ie ALRM will cause an EStop
    whereas a FollowingError fault will cause a FeedHold.

    Programming these features without the use of Delta software is possible but problematic.

    Craig

  11. #31
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    Mar 2019
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    51

    Re: From NEMA 27 to NEMA 34 and voltage type selection

    Again great content!

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Yes you can pull it high (or low) and thereby cause the servo drive to be permanently enabled. I intend (as I am still building my new mill) to have one Enable signal line (from my controller) that enables
    all three drives. I also intend on having one Reset signal (from my controller) which connects to all three drives. Note that Delta drives tolerate an already active drive receiving a Reset signal. Some brands
    a Reset to an already active drive would cause a fault.
    You direct short them or have a diode per driver signal?
    Also there's any advantage of having the controller enabling the servo opposed to permanently enabled? If yes what are the use cases?
    About reset do you have a macro to trigger it or you tie it to any button? I'm thinking to activate reset once clicked "Override limits" button...

    On manual it's not clear if Outputs+ are shorted to COM+ or VDD? For inputs+ they short with COM+ but outputs are not clear, do you know about it? I want to spare cables and nest

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    As far as various fault signalling schemes Delta drives are very flexible.

    Lets start with limit signals. With most Mach systems, and I imagine similar to UCCNC, limit switches are connected directly to the controller. A limit event will cause the machine to stop.
    Delta drives (and incidentally most other modern AC drives) offer another alternative. You can hook a ++limit switch and a --limit switch direct to two inputs on the drive. Should a limit
    event occur the servo will stop, either a crash stop or controlled deceleration at your program choice, and also propagate a LimitEvent signal on one of the drive digital outputs
    to signal to the controller that a limit event has occurred. If you are required to jog the servo back within limits the drive will know not to allow you to jog++ when the axis is already
    exceeded the ++limit, but will allow you to jog--.

    You might ask 'why would Delta bother to add complexity to their drive in the form of limit signals and logic when my controller can do it?'
    The main reason is that Delta drives are capable of being used in a distributed motion control solution. With such a system you do not have a motion controller at all, your PC is the trajectory planner
    and via EtherCat or CanOpen that data is signalled to each drive, and each drive is responsible for controlling its own motion. Thus each drive must be able to handle and control its own
    limit and home events. EtherCat is a recent feature addition in Mach4 but is not available with UCCNC.

    Technically we do not need the limit handling built in to the drive but I point it out that you may see some of the power and flexibility of the drive.
    If you had limited input pins on your controller then having drive handle limits might be an advantage. Instead of two inputs (++ and --)being required
    for each axis, you would require now only one, namely the LimitEvent signal. I know that most people combine ++ and -- limits to just one input but then you lose
    the capability of determining which way to jog the axis. As the servos are so fast and powerful having a mechanism that absolutely prevents you from jogging in the
    wrong direction seems worthwhile to me. I have not decided which method (drive handles limits and jogs verses the controller handling the limits and use a software interlock to prevent
    erroneous jogs) to employ on my machine. Given that the drive handled signals are hardwired in the drive they would be less subject to programming error.
    While i was exploring manual i notice that thing about limits, i will not use that feature but is always good to have, since we can ignore it it doesn't hurt having extra features and more the better
    I'm in the group who short every limit sensor, in my case i have X-/+ & Y-/+ and will have Z+ soon, they are all common but in my machine is easy to know which limit was trigger with just a look, still that should never happen...
    But in fact is not hard to tie them to driver, with a 3 pin F/M connector will run the sensor just in some minutes

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Now with respect to other fault conditions, I refer you to 7-98 to 7-100 of the manual. There are a number of fault conditions which are combined to one output ALRM.
    It is also possible to have fault events signalled separately on different pins. Your controller or control software could handle faults in different ways.
    For instance you might decide that Overcurrent, Overvoltage, OverHeat should cause a machine wide EStop. You might decide that if you get a FollowingError fault
    your machine software would execute a FeedHold event and thereby prevent loss of HomeReference that occurs with an EStop event.

    This multilevel fault signalling is much more sophisticated than you or I as hobbyists are used to but are common in industrial practice.
    I have yet to decide what level of sophistication of fault signalling I will adopt but I suspect I will opt for the solution above ie ALRM will cause an EStop
    whereas a FollowingError fault will cause a FeedHold.

    Programming these features without the use of Delta software is possible but problematic.
    Yes that a big plus and in fact should be used even for us.
    Regarding EStop, Stop Cycle & FeedHold i can't get a valid test... I did a test which show me that feedhold was acting like stop or estop, maybe only noticeble on high speeds/accels? When i press feed hold on UCCNC it immediately holds just like estop, it don't complete the line, for instance lets say a straight line from 0 to 100mm, if i feedhold on 50mm, it will hold as soon i click it, but as i understand feedhold as a safe thing that will hold on a safe position ie: start of next gcode line, stoping at middle of a line doesn't seen so safe, but well UCCNC does a really good job because i already try them all and both was able to continue without offseting the work. I also read somewhere people use cycle stop on uccnc instead of feedhold because of spindle and therebefore cycle stop = feedhold but turn off spindle.
    Twice i also tried the extreme, after a long job i had to turn off at night, so i press RESET (estop), turn off cnc power and left motion controller and software on, on next day i resumed without home, i just cleared the estop and click cycle start, everything went ok, clean and without offsets (I'm am with luck?)

    Now i tried 10000 mm acelarations but that shakes my machine and bench, that was a extreme to see how it behaves, i'm now with 800mm which i think its ok for my machine
    I will order a second kit to compose the machine and get rid of steppers, these servos are a bless.

    Here my adaptor and servo
    https://i.imgur.com/qO6lTE6.jpg
    https://i.imgur.com/Ggyzey6.jpg

  12. #32
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    4280

    Re: From NEMA 27 to NEMA 34 and voltage type selection

    Hi,

    You direct short them or have a diode per driver signal?
    You can do either. Look very closely at the warning sticker that comes attached to the drive. It shows two ways that you can wire
    to digital inputs, but one way is correct and the other will result in an overcurrent fault of the input photodiode and destroy it.
    You need to understand that warning.

    The attached pic is from 3-46 of the manual. It shows an open collector configuration to the pulse and direction inputs, but is in fact
    representative of all opto-isolated digital inputs. Note that it indicates the use of the available auxillary 24VDC suply (500mA max) within
    the drive for signalling purposes. The 24VDC is applied to pin 35 via a link from the 24VDC output pin 17. Note how I have highlighted
    the built in 1kOhm current limit resistor in the circuit to each of the photodiodes. Thus if you shorted pins 37 or pin 41 to COM-, pin 45
    the current through the photodiodes would cause both inputs to the drive to be logic high but the current through each photodiode is limited by
    the 1kOhm and the two 51Ohm resistors. Clearly the 1kOhm resistor effectively sets the current and limits it to a safe value.

    The second pic also from the same page as the manual shows that you can hook directly to the same input photodiodes through
    pins 36 and 43 but these DO NOT INCLUDE the 1kOhm resitance, just the two 51 Ohm resistors. If you attempt to feed 24VDC through
    the photodiodes WITHOUT the 1kOhm limiting resistor you will blow the photodiode. That is what the sticker is about.
    Note that you could apply 5VDC to this wiring setup, the two 51Ohm resistors provide sufficient current limiting for that.

    My inclination is to use the included 1kOhm resistor as that means I can't accidentally damage the photdiode input. The open collector
    wiring option limits the signalling speed to about 200kHz whereas if you use a differential line driver of 5V you can get to full 5000kHz.
    In practice I've found I can get to closer to 250kHz with open collector and in any event 200kHz is more than enough for the resolution
    I require.

    Also there's any advantage of having the controller enabling the servo opposed to permanently enabled?
    I believe it is better to have a controlled enable signal, it would be available as a saftey for instance that would prevent unexpected movement
    from your machine, say, when you had the doors open. Depending on your machine you might consider that extra safety precaution unwarranted
    in which case by all means permanently short the Enable signal to earth.

    I'm in the group who short every limit sensor, in my case i have X-/+ & Y-/+ and will have Z+ soon, they are all common but in my machine is easy to know which limit was trigger with just a look, still that should never happen...
    That may be your choice but I refuse to countenance it. In industrial practice a machine would be determined to be unsafe if an operator could
    jog a machine out-of-bounds beacuse the limits had been combined in such a manner that the control software could not prevent it.
    Such a machine would contravene employment safety law here....so why would I consider it for home use.....after all I know who would get hurt!
    My new build mill will weigh over 600kg and have axes powered by 1hp servos. It may have been acceptable for my mini-mill to have combined
    limits but with a bigger and much more powerful machine such a shortcut is foolhardy. I have the required inputs and the control software is well suited
    to the task....why would I not use it to make a safe machine?

    In Mach, and I suspect UCCNC, although I cant be sure in UCCNC, an Estop or a StopCycle causes an imediate stop which aborts motion data
    in the buffer, which results in loss of home reference. FeedHold on the otherhand allows the motion buffer to drain before the machine stops.
    My motion controller has a default motion buffer length of 180ms. Thus if I hit <FeedHold> I could potentialy get another 180ms of movement
    before the machine stopped. In most cases you have to look very hard and critcally to determine the difference between Estop and FeedHold.

    Just as a matter of interest lets imagine your machine is idle at a given moment, that is not moving at all. If you hit <Estop> the machine stops
    imediately but as there was no motion data in the buffer then there is no loss when the buffer is aborted. Then if you re-enabled the machine
    it would maintain accurate home reference. Note some control software (Mach4 certainly) allows you to set what happens to Home Refernce status
    after an Estop or Stop event. To be 100% you should in fact re-home atfer an Estop, although I have my machine just to resume the current machine
    coordinates. It relies on me to determine whether the Estop could potenially have caused a loss of reference. Likewise in Mach4 you can determine
    what happens to the spindle on an Estop, CycleStop and Feedhold.

    Twice i also tried the extreme, after a long job i had to turn off at night, so i press RESET (estop), turn off cnc power and left motion controller and software on, on next day i resumed without home, i just cleared the estop and click cycle start, everything went ok, clean and without offsets (I'm am with luck?)
    I suspect that at the time you hit <Reset> your machine was stationary and therefore no motion data was lost and then, yes, it is permissable to resume
    without re-homing. If you were in an industrial environment would you want your employees to just start using a machine without confirming its home
    reference?. If they get it wrong they can crash a machine. Indeed many industrial machines have absolute encoders such that the machine can be powered
    up and it retains reference without a homing procedure, and machine owners pay a very considerable price tag for that added security.

    Craig

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