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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    361

    Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Hey guys I have a newbie question does smooth stepper and pokeys do the same thing? Is 1 better than the other if so why? I have a mpg that is very stubborn and I think I need to install a smooth stepper , I have a 7x mini lathe and I'm looking for help with my threading ( spindle encoder ) and the hand held pendent which one of these would be ????

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    4281

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Hi,
    you don't say whether you are using Mach3 or Mach4?

    I think there is very little (practical) difference between them when running Mach3 however the ESS enjoys class leading realtime
    supports when running Mach4.

    Having said that the realtime supports that the ESS has that the 57CNC does not are realtime THC and realtime laser vecotring/rastering,
    neither of which is required for your application.

    There is only one small difference that may interest you, the ESS has PID control of PWM-to-analogue spindles. The closed loop
    bandwidth is not high, certainly not as high as a regular servo, but high enough that you can consider the spindle to be in closed loop
    velocity control, a real boon if you are threading with a marginally powered spindle.

    Sorry I should add that these last two paragraphs refer to the Mach4 capabilites. I don't believe either controller has PID spindle
    control nor laser vectoring/rastering in Mach3 but they do both have single point lathe threading and realtime THC.

    I myself use the ESS with Mach4 and am consequently biased that way.

    Craig

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    361

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    you don't say whether you are using Mach3 or Mach4?

    I think there is very little (practical) difference between them when running Mach3 however the ESS enjoys class leading realtime
    supports when running Mach4.

    Having said that the realtime supports that the ESS has that the 57CNC does not are realtime THC and realtime laser vecotring/rastering,
    neither of which is required for your application.

    There is only one small difference that may interest you, the ESS has PID control of PWM-to-analogue spindles. The closed loop
    bandwidth is not high, certainly not as high as a regular servo, but high enough that you can consider the spindle to be in closed loop
    velocity control, a real boon if you are threading with a marginally powered spindle.

    Sorry I should add that these last two paragraphs refer to the Mach4 capabilites. I don't believe either controller has PID spindle
    control nor laser vectoring/rastering in Mach3 but they do both have single point lathe threading and realtime THC.

    I myself use the ESS with Mach4 and am consequently biased that way.

    Craig
    Craig ,
    I am using mach3 but as soon as I see some better benefits in mach4 I am stuck with mach 3.
    So having said that for now I'm using mach 3 . I have a 3 axis router as well and would like to implement the same motion controller for that as well . The 7x mini lathe is my current project and the hand held pendant didnt work very well with the 2nd LPT so I'm looking for better options to better my chances of making the mpg work...any thoughts on that aspect

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
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    4281

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Hi,
    if you are using Mach3 then either board is fine. If using, or potentially using Mach4, then the ESS has a slight advantage.

    I personally think Mach4 is a quantum leap ahead of Mach3 and that doesn't count mcSurface wizard nor scrpit based THC nor the ZeroBrane editor
    ....and the list goes on.

    Craig

  5. #5

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    If you use the ESS board, it is easy to set up,using SCU (System Configuration Utility)

    https://www.warp9td.com/index.php/sw

    https://www.automationtechnologiesin...rd-for-mach-3/

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    4281

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Hi,

    If you use the ESS board, it is easy to set up,using SCU (System Configuration Utility)
    Well, actually no, at least that was my experience. I used the SCU and most of it progressed normally but it did not work. It took best part of a
    week of emails back and forth with Andy (Warp9's Support Tech) to get it solved. As it turns out it was my fault, I had mis-configured the firewall.

    Over the course of that week I had to learn about Ethernet, Ethernet addressing modes and a hundred other details like that. It was a frustrating week.
    Looking back on it now it was a good opportunity for me to learn stuff that I should know. Secondly it absolutely convinced me that manufacturers
    support IS, OR AT LEAST SHOULD BE, WHAT YOU ARE BUYING. Warp9 deserves a 10 out of 10 for that.

    Every manufacturer and supplier wants to claim 'Their board is the easiest to set up', and in some cases it may even be true, but for the most part,
    my observation, is that any complex (ie all of them) motion controller will be difficult to set up initially. Once you have learnt all the quirks....then
    you can do it with your eyes closed....but the first time, Oh no, it's hard.

    Warp9's SCU is good but not infallible, just be aware it is not all plain sailing, patience pills and/or Bourbon highly recommened. I'm not aware of
    any board that is.

    Craig

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    361

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    you don't say whether you are using Mach3 or Mach4?

    I think there is very little (practical) difference between them when running Mach3 however the ESS enjoys class leading realtime
    supports when running Mach4.

    Having said that the realtime supports that the ESS has that the 57CNC does not are realtime THC and realtime laser vecotring/rastering,
    neither of which is required for your application.

    There is only one small difference that may interest you, the ESS has PID control of PWM-to-analogue spindles. The closed loop
    bandwidth is not high, certainly not as high as a regular servo, but high enough that you can consider the spindle to be in closed loop
    velocity control, a real boon if you are threading with a marginally powered spindle.

    Sorry I should add that these last two paragraphs refer to the Mach4 capabilites. I don't believe either controller has PID spindle
    control nor laser vectoring/rastering in Mach3 but they do both have single point lathe threading and realtime THC.

    I myself use the ESS with Mach4 and am consequently biased that way.

    Craig
    Craig , which one do you think has the most support and documentation between the 2 ?

  8. #8
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    Nov 2013
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    4281

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Hi,
    Warp9 TD, the manufacturer of the ESS has a forum dedicated to support moderated by a fulltime employee of the company,
    8 hours a day, five days a week.

    Craig

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    361

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    Warp9 TD, the manufacturer of the ESS has a forum dedicated to support moderated by a fulltime employee of the company,
    8 hours a day, five days a week.

    Craig
    So I seen some of the comments below can I ask what do you use on your machine(s)? I was trying to avoid doing the whole learning process of like you said ethernet and addresses and such ...but u made a good point I should le as rn it while I have the opportunity but I have bigger fish to fry at the moment. That's y I'm asking out of the 2 pokeys and smooth stepper overall which would be better for mach 3 now and later mach 4

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    411

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    I have both. I would say that I prefer the ESS. My first build was with the 57CNC for a G0704 conversion. While I liked the Pokeys initially I found that the way the board was configured was limiting. Most of the I/O has a fixed function. There are connectors for motors, one for a pendant, one for limits... When you try to do things that are out of the ordinary, like setup a console with lots of switches and lights, you will quickly run out of I/O. With the ESS it has just 3 connectors and the signals can be assigned to any function (within reason). The I/O on the ESS comes out to 3 standard 25 pin connectors. Also there are several BOB's out there that bring all the I/O to screw terminals instead of you having to use the ribbon cable connectors.

    I have used the support facilities for each board and US based is easier and more responsive.

    The BOB with the most for ESS.
    https://www.cncroom.com/interface-cards/mb3

    I have to admit however that I have only ever used Mach 4, and that I build my own custom interface cards to connect to the ESS and Pokeys.

    Mill conversion with Pokeys
    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/bench...are-posts.html

    This is my lathe conversion with the ESS
    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/verti...-software.html

  11. #11
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    Nov 2013
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    4281

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Hi,
    I have and use an ESS and have done so for five years, would not be without it.

    I have never had my hands on a 57CNC but maxspongebob's comment about the IO being largely fixed by the manufacturers choice
    of architecture correspond well with another NZ CNCer whose opinion I respect.

    As I have commented before Warp9's after sales support is fantastic. I have heard similar claims about PoKeys. In short there is little
    to chose between them on that score.

    The ESS has a small but distinct advantage with respect to realtime supports in Mach4.

    Warp9 are in the process of designing and building a new board....they are keeping fairly tight lipped about it but what has leaked out is tantalizing.
    I'm hoping that it will be ready when my new build mill is ready......I have no hesitations about buying, even pre-paying to get one hot off the press.

    Craig

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    411

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    joeaverage. Do tell.

    What have you heard about a new ESS? I have been designing a new BOB for the ESS and would really appreciate any new info so I can put a hold on this development if it is going to be obsolete soon.
    A while back I was trying to get some info from Alan about the expansion connector on the ESS so I could increase the I/O. They weren't giving up any secrets and said that it would be too difficult to enable that functionality.

  13. #13
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    Nov 2013
    Posts
    4281

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Hi maxspongebob,
    Andy and Greg have been pretty tight lipped, and I'm only reading between the lines here. I don't think the ESS as we know it is going to be obsolete
    but it will have a bigger brother.

    I think more IO is on the cards. A built in RS485 port for communicating with other devices. I guess the plugin will determine how much
    of the comms protocol is lifted off Mach and the PC and how much is shouldered by ESS2, of course ESS2 is realtime, so......

    As you know the current ESS (in a Mach4 environment only) has spindle PID that allows a low bandwidth closed loop control over an analogue
    input spindle speed controller. The best I've gotten is that Greg and Andy do not intend to go down the full PID/analogue servo control rabbit hole,
    that has been done to death by the likes of the Hicon and CSMIO/A, but they are intending more low bandwidth closed loop control, say THC.

    A related issue is MPG/encoder following. My guess is they intend that an MPG/encoder be reflected in realtime motion rather than back to Mach
    thence to the motion control buffer as is done currently. We have become so used to having a motion buffer delay in the loop its hard to
    forsee what change a realtime MPG will have. Interesting times.

    I would guess that the first plugin off the rank would be for Mach4. I rather doubt that there will ever be a Mach3 plugin for the ESS2,
    I mean who wants to put the sort of effort a plugin requires into a software that has ceased development. No...my guess, even hope,
    given that I use Mach4, that they concentrate their efforts on a Mach4 plugin.

    Craig

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    361

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Quote Originally Posted by maxspongebob View Post
    I have both. I would say that I prefer the ESS. My first build was with the 57CNC for a G0704 conversion. While I liked the Pokeys initially I found that the way the board was configured was limiting. Most of the I/O has a fixed function. There are connectors for motors, one for a pendant, one for limits... When you try to do things that are out of the ordinary, like setup a console with lots of switches and lights, you will quickly run out of I/O. With the ESS it has just 3 connectors and the signals can be assigned to any function (within reason). The I/O on the ESS comes out to 3 standard 25 pin connectors. Also there are several BOB's out there that bring all the I/O to screw terminals instead of you having to use the ribbon cable connectors.

    I have used the support facilities for each board and US based is easier and more responsive.

    The BOB with the most for ESS.
    https://www.cncroom.com/interface-cards/mb3

    I have to admit however that I have only ever used Mach 4, and that I build my own custom interface cards to connect to the ESS and Pokeys.

    Mill conversion with Pokeys
    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/bench...are-posts.html

    This is my lathe conversion with the ESS
    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/verti...-software.html

    Thanks for your reply do you use a mpg pendent ? And if so how is the response?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    411

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    I do use them. I have a Vista CNC PS-2 that is connected to my Mach4 computer. This is a USB pendant (only). It works alright, but often a static discharge will send the screen off into never never land and then it is useless until I stop and restart Mach. That was on my first build.

    I also have a console on my lathe that has 2 MPG's, one for X and one for Z. These are connected directly to the ESS. This works much better than the PS-2 but doesn't have a screen.

    As for response, the lathe MPG that is wired to the ESS deffinetly has a better response. The PS-2 emulates a keyboard and this generates a good bit of delay going through Mach and back to the ESS to cause a step.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    411

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi maxspongebob,
    Andy and Greg have been pretty tight lipped, and I'm only reading between the lines here. I don't think the ESS as we know it is going to be obsolete
    but it will have a bigger brother.

    I think more IO is on the cards. A built in RS485 port for communicating with other devices. I guess the plugin will determine how much
    of the comms protocol is lifted off Mach and the PC and how much is shouldered by ESS2, of course ESS2 is realtime, so......

    As you know the current ESS (in a Mach4 environment only) has spindle PID that allows a low bandwidth closed loop control over an analogue
    input spindle speed controller. The best I've gotten is that Greg and Andy do not intend to go down the full PID/analogue servo control rabbit hole,
    that has been done to death by the likes of the Hicon and CSMIO/A, but they are intending more low bandwidth closed loop control, say THC.

    A related issue is MPG/encoder following. My guess is they intend that an MPG/encoder be reflected in realtime motion rather than back to Mach
    thence to the motion control buffer as is done currently. We have become so used to having a motion buffer delay in the loop its hard to
    forsee what change a realtime MPG will have. Interesting times.

    I would guess that the first plugin off the rank would be for Mach4. I rather doubt that there will ever be a Mach3 plugin for the ESS2,
    I mean who wants to put the sort of effort a plugin requires into a software that has ceased development. No...my guess, even hope,
    given that I use Mach4, that they concentrate their efforts on a Mach4 plugin.

    Craig
    Those are the exact same reasons I was creating a new BOB for the ESS. I wanted a Modbus interface for a VFD and a console. I also wanted more I/O.

    I agree, Mach3 development is a waste of time.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    361

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Quote Originally Posted by maxspongebob View Post
    I do use them. I have a Vista CNC PS-2 that is connected to my Mach4 computer. This is a USB pendant (only). It works alright, but often a static discharge will send the screen off into never never land and then it is useless until I stop and restart Mach. That was on my first build.

    I also have a console on my lathe that has 2 MPG's, one for X and one for Z. These are connected directly to the ESS. This works much better than the PS-2 but doesn't have a screen.

    As for response, the lathe MPG that is wired to the ESS deffinetly has a better response. The PS-2 emulates a keyboard and this generates a good bit of delay going through Mach and back to the ESS to cause a step.
    So is the wired mpg that you wired direct to the ess did it look like this Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screenshot_20200331-145012_eBay.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	23.8 KB 
ID:	439520Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screenshot_20200331-145012_eBay.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	23.8 KB 
ID:	439520

  18. #18
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    Nov 2007
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    361

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    Did you ever make the bob

  19. #19
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    Mar 2017
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    411

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    [QUOTE=Michael82;2366506]So is the wired mpg that you wired direct to the ess did it look like this [/QUOTE

    No, it looks like this. I put the controls on the front of the lathe.

    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/attac...d=423082&stc=1

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    411

    Re: Pokeys vs ess smooth stepper

    I have not sent if to fab yet. I just finished a final review of the PCB. I need to pull the trigger on it and I will get it back in couple weeks.

    This card has everything but the kitchen sink, so it is not going to be cheap.

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