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  1. #1
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    Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hello

    I am planing to upgrade my nema 34 stepper system (1090oz-in) and leadshine EM806 drives 60v psu to servo system. Ballscrews are 2020, direct drive at the moment.
    I want to get about 20m/minute rapids. It is 1000RPM, and servos are 3000rpm so I am planing to use 3:1 belt reduction.
    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/attac...d=440572&stc=1
    I want to upgrade because of
    1. I have never used servos but always wanted.
    2. I like UCCNC but I want to close the loop with linear encoders. To compensate my not so good ballscrews. and I thin I find a way to do it.

    Drives I am currently looking (delta brand).
    ASD-A2-0421-L (400W)
    ASD-A2-0721-L (750W)

    The L in the model name indicates fully closed loop drive. the drive has second encoder input for linear scale.
    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/attac...d=440574&stc=1

    Encoders i want to use
    https://www.rls.si/en/rlc2ic-miniatu...gnetic-encoder
    Resolution is 0,001mm

    My questions:
    1. Is delta drives and servos are good quality and reliability.
    2. where to buy them is aliexpress okay place? is there are some clones or something in market I have to avoid? (like stepper drivers clone leadshine etc)
    3. what power is good for my application? I have 2 motors on Y axis and 1 motor on X axis. (X axis weight is 70kg including Z axis)
    4. how complicated is servo tuning, I am read something about it but as i mentioned I am newer used one before.
    5. Is anyone used delta servos, if they are good?

    Any general information and thought about closed loop, servos, encoders, drivers are welcome.

  2. #2
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,
    I use and love Delta servos. I personally have the B2 series servos which has a 160,000 count encoder and does not have the second encoder channel
    like your proposed A2 series servos. At the time I bought them I did not realise that the A2 series had that extra feature and could be had for only about
    $50 more (each) than the B2 series. None-the-less the B2 series are superb.

    1. Is delta drives and servos are good quality and reliability.
    Good quality, reliability and backup.

    2. where to buy them is aliexpress okay place?
    fasttobuy2012 | eBay Stores

    I found this Ebay store to be if not the lowest price it was close to. They are responsive and can source direct from Delta.
    If you buy Delta servos you want to use the Delta tuning software in which case you need the programming cable. I bought
    a genuine Delta accessory cable, you'll want one.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ASDA-B2...72.m2749.l2649


    3. what power is good for my application?
    I have 400W and 750W servos, they deliver great torque, they seem to 'punch above their weight'. I would go with 750W as they are
    only $30-$50 more and are the same size as your steppers.

    I have mine direct coupled to 5mm pitch ballscerws for G1's of 15m/min (3000 rpm) but use field weakening mode for G0's of
    25m/min (5000rpm). Yes, you can induce Delta servos to run at 5000 rpm.....are you in for a treat!.

    I suspect that you could direct couple your servos......they have serious grunt and I think you could get away without gearboxes or
    belt reduction.

    4. how complicated is servo tuning, I am read something about it but as i mentioned I am newer used one before.
    Using auto-tune its very simple indeed. If you wish to refine auto-tune or have to for some reason then you can do so and there are some
    excellent tuning aids in the software. Beware that it's complicated and you could spend hours/days and still learn more. Its not that
    tuning the servo and drive are that hard it's just that servo tuning is SUCH a broad subject.

    5. Is anyone used delta servos, if they are good?
    One word SUPERB.

    Craig

  3. #3
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    fasttobuy2012 | eBay Stores

    I found this Ebay store to be if not the lowest price it was close to. They are responsive and can source direct from Delta.
    If you buy Delta servos you want to use the Delta tuning software in which case you need the programming cable. I bought
    a genuine Delta accessory cable, you'll want one. Craig
    They are manufactured in China as for a lot of these servo drives and motors, that is why you were able to buy them cheap, but if they work as per the spec's then you have a good deal
    Mactec54

  4. #4
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    What is servo drive regenerative resistor?

    When it is needed, and what it gives to my system?

    Can I program this drive also via usb port, or I need the cable you pointed out?

  5. #5
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by janis93 View Post
    What is servo drive regenerative resistor?

    When it is needed, and what it gives to my system?

    Can I program this drive also via usb port, or I need the cable you pointed out?
    I doubt that you would ever have a need for a braking ( regenerative ) resistor unless you have a mass that you are trying to stop in a hurry which could be the case when using high pitch Ballscrews

    With quality servo drives the loop is closed in the servo drive, and can be corrected by the control if out of position, but not normally not needed to be controlled by the control for what you are building

    Even with 3:1 the 400w servos will fail to perform with a 2020 Ballscrew even 750w would be at there max to run a 2020 Ballscrew so if you are looking for performance nothing less than 750w is going to do it for you

    Most servo drives can be setup ( Programed ) by using a USB cable suited for the Servo Drive

    How good are the Delta Servo system they are in the mid range in the market place, if you want a comparison Yaskawa is the number ( 1 )
    Mactec54

  6. #6
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,

    Most servo drives can be setup ( Programed ) by using a USB cable suited for the Servo Drive
    That is incorrect, the programming port on Delta servos is IEEE1394. In the marketplace there are two wiring standards for the
    IEEE1394 plug, one of which can damage the drive. I elected to buy a genuine accessory. Note also that I chose the USB-IEEE1394
    which is more expensive, a simpler RS232-IEEE1394 will cost as little as $20.

    if you want a comparison Yaskawa is the number ( 1 )
    Yep....real good....mind you they should be at 3-4 times the price.

    Craig

  7. #7
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,



    That is incorrect, the programming port on Delta servos is IEEE1394. In the marketplace there are two wiring standards for the
    IEEE1394 plug, one of which can damage the drive. I elected to buy a genuine accessory. Note also that I chose the USB-IEEE1394
    which is more expensive, a simpler RS232-IEEE1394 will cost as little as $20.



    Yep....real good....mind you they should be at 3-4 times the price.

    Craig


    Read what I posted, nothing incorrect about it you are confused again (nuts)

    " What I posted " ( Most servo drives can be setup ( Programed ) by using a USB cable suited for the Servo Drive ) I did not say the Delta Drive could be but if you have the software you can use a converter USB to RS 232 is a common way most manufacturers do it
    Mactec54

  8. #8
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi Matec,
    tough!

    Craig

  9. #9

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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    I doubt that you would ever have a need for a braking ( regenerative ) resistor unless you have a mass that you are trying to stop in a hurry which could be the case when using high pitch Ballscrews

    With quality servo drives the loop is closed in the servo drive, and can be corrected by the control if out of position, but not normally not needed to be controlled by the control for what you are building

    Even with 3:1 the 400w servos will fail to perform with a 2020 Ballscrew even 750w would be at there max to run a 2020 Ballscrew so if you are looking for performance nothing less than 750w is going to do it for you

    Most servo drives can be setup ( Programed ) by using a USB cable suited for the Servo Drive

    How good are the Delta Servo system they are in the mid range in the market place, if you want a comparison Yaskawa is the number ( 1 )
    Hi.

    About the servo performance, I am building a machine with a Z-axis weight of 30kg, an X-axis weight of 60kg and gantry weight of approximately 100kg (including X and Z-axis).

    I will be running 1605 ballscrew on the Z-axis, 2:1 with a braked servo. The X-axis will be run with 2020 and 2:1. The Y-axis will be dual motor and dual 2020 screws with 2:1 ratio.

    But as you mentioned here that even 3:1 ratio with a 750W servo would be the bare minimum, I am having second thoughts about my desing. Originally I was planning 2010 screws on X and Y, with 400w servos and 2:1, but now I want more speed.

    Don't you think that this would work well:

    - 750W (maybe even 400W?) with 2:1 with 1605 for 30kg Z-axis
    - 750W with 2:1 for 60kg with 2020
    - 2x750W with 2:1 with 2x2020

    Here is my build log if you are interested: https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app

    Skickat från min SM-A530F via Tapatalk

  10. #10
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,
    my new build mill has axis beds of 75kg. Thus I would expect the Y axis partiularly to be required to accelerate the X axis bed, linear rails,
    ballscrew and servo, vice and workpiece AND control cutting forces. I anticipate the mass alone will be about 110kg. I am planning
    direct coupling the servo to the 32mm diameter 5mm pitch screw.

    I am of the opinion, and have calculations to support it, that it will work. The ratio of the moments of inertia between the servo armature and the ballscrew
    and attached beds/mass suggest that I may have some fun trying to tune the combination. A medium inertia servo would be better in this regard.

    Follow this calculation:

    750W servo, rated continuous torque =2.4Nm
    Effective radius of a 32mm ballscrew= 16mm =0.016m
    Force@0.016m=2.4/0.016
    =150N

    Mechanical advantage of a 32mm diameter screw or 5mm pitch is:
    mechanical advantage=32 x pi / 5
    =20

    Thrust ( at rated torque)= 20 x 150
    =3kN

    Lets say that half of that thrust is available to accelerate the axis and the remainder overcomes friction and controls cutting forces:
    Accelerating thrust= 3kN x 0.5
    =1.5kN
    F=M x A or A=F /M
    acceleration =1500/110
    =13.6 m/s2

    The acceleration of my 110kg axis could be as high as 1.3g.....and thats only rated torque, if I allow axis tuning to use the the overlaod torque
    I could accelerate at close to 4g!!!, and that still assumes ONLY ONE HALF of the torque is available for axis movement. More likely
    3/4 to 7/8 in actual practice.

    In short a 750W direct coupled servo is way more power than I can really use, 400W would still be more than adequate, but 750W servos
    were only another $30 each so I got them.

    I can have G1's of 15m/min (3000 rpm) and G0's of 25m/min (5000rpm).

    Yes you can get your 3000rpm Delta servo to do 5000 rpm, using a feature called feild weakening. It loses some of it top end
    torque, but hey I've got swags to spare!

    I think you'll have more power and speed that you can possibly believe with the servos you have listed.

    Craig

  11. #11

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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    my new build mill has axis beds of 75kg. Thus I would expect the Y axis partiularly to be required to accelerate the X axis bed, linear rails,
    ballscrew and servo, vice and workpiece AND control cutting forces. I anticipate the mass alone will be about 110kg. I am planning
    direct coupling the servo to the 32mm diameter 5mm pitch screw.

    I am of the opinion, and have calculations to support it, that it will work. The ratio of the moments of inertia between the servo armature and the ballscrew
    and attached beds/mass suggest that I may have some fun trying to tune the combination. A medium inertia servo would be better in this regard.

    Follow this calculation:

    750W servo, rated continuous torque =2.4Nm
    Effective radius of a 32mm ballscrew= 16mm =0.016m
    Force@0.016m=2.4/0.016
    =150N

    Mechanical advantage of a 32mm diameter screw or 5mm pitch is:
    mechanical advantage=32 x pi / 5
    =20

    Thrust ( at rated torque)= 20 x 150
    =3kN

    Lets say that half of that thrust is available to accelerate the axis and the remainder overcomes friction and controls cutting forces:
    Accelerating thrust= 3kN x 0.5
    =1.5kN
    F=M x A or A=F /M
    acceleration =1500/110
    =13.6 m/s2

    The acceleration of my 110kg axis could be as high as 1.3g.....and thats only rated torque, if I allow axis tuning to use the the overlaod torque
    I could accelerate at close to 4g!!!, and that still assumes ONLY ONE HALF of the torque is available for axis movement. More likely
    3/4 to 7/8 in actual practice.

    In short a 750W direct coupled servo is way more power than I can really use, 400W would still be more than adequate, but 750W servos
    were only another $30 each so I got them.

    I can have G1's of 15m/min (3000 rpm) and G0's of 25m/min (5000rpm).

    Yes you can get your 3000rpm Delta servo to do 5000 rpm, using a feature called feild weakening. It loses some of it top end
    torque, but hey I've got swags to spare!

    I think you'll have more power and speed that you can possibly believe with the servos you have listed.

    Craig
    Thanks for the thorough explanation. I was asking because mactec54 claimed the power being way too low. I am not saying that he is wrong but according to the calculations, even 400w would be sufficient!

    Skickat från min SM-A530F via Tapatalk

  12. #12

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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    I would agree that between Delta and Yaskawa, the latter would most likely be better

  13. #13
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,
    I did a job to fit Omron servos to a customers machine. I'm not sure whether Omron own Yaskawa or the other way
    around, but the servos and drives are identical excepting the logo on the front.

    There is no doubt that the Omrons were good, but in the short time I had with them did not observe any major advantage
    over Deltas say. It may well be that Omrons quality would show up over a longer time frame but there was nothing that grabbed me.

    One area that Yaskawa (Omron) have a market leading position is EtherCat, they have been EtherCat capable for quite some years
    and vie with Beckhoff for the prize as the 'best EtherCat manufacturer'.

    Craig

  14. #14
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    I did a job to fit Omron servos to a customers machine. I'm not sure whether Omron own Yaskawa or the other way
    around, but the servos and drives are identical excepting the logo on the front.

    There is no doubt that the Omrons were good, but in the short time I had with them did not observe any major advantage
    over Deltas say. It may well be that Omrons quality would show up over a longer time frame but there was nothing that grabbed me.

    One area that Yaskawa (Omron) have a market leading position is EtherCat, they have been EtherCat capable for quite some years
    and vie with Beckhoff for the prize as the 'best EtherCat manufacturer'.

    Craig
    Very strange you talk about Omron servo Drives as they don't make one them selves, for years they used to be Yaskawa rebadged with there name as did others also, but changed a few years ago, and now are selling Hitachi VFD Drives and Panasonic servo products, that they rebadged with there name now, they usually had a higher price for there renamed Drives than the same product from Yaskawa it just depended if you where an Omron fan as to which you would buy

    They also where not the first to have EtherCat Softservo was the first CNC control to develop the use of EtherCat and Servo Drives where developed to suit Copley servo drives where the first then came Yaskawa being one of the Servo Drives that was developed for the Softservo controls the EtherCat connection started around 1998 when it was first introduced

    Omron is it's own company as is Yaskawa since 1915, business is done between many different company's Name branding is not unusual

    Some of the rebadged Yaskawa Drives

    Omron
    Magnetek
    Saftronics
    Mactec54

  15. #15
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,

    Dmm have a good system and at a lower cost DMM
    Nowhere in their sales litrature, catalogue or user manual can I find any reference to dual encoder sensing.

    Very strange you talk about Omron servo Drives as they don't make one them selves, for years they used to be Yaskawa rebadged with there name as did others also, but changed a few years ago,
    That sounds about right, I seem to recall doing the job about end of 2016, I recall the part number was almost identical to Yawakaw servos. I was told
    at that time, incorectly probably, that Omron owned Yaskawa. I do recall they were bloody expensive and I thought at the time 'they may be good but they
    aren't worth that much'.

    EtherCAT (Ethernet for Control Automation Technology) is an Ethernet-based fieldbus system, invented by Beckhoff Automation. The protocol is standardized in IEC 61158 and is suitable for both hard and soft real-time computing requirements in automation technology.
    Ethercat Masters are royalty free however Ethercat Slave devices have a licence fee 'embedded in the cost of the slave FPGA'. The licence fee is payable
    to EtherCat Technology Group and Beckhoff Automation. Page 2, FAQ EtherCat Technology Group:

    http://www.ethercat.org/pdf/english/ethercat_faqs.pdf

    Craig

  16. #16
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi, Nowhere in their sales litrature, catalogue or user manual can I find any reference to dual encoder sensing.
    Dual encoder feed back is done with hardware and at the control, not at the servo drive, it has nothing to do with servo drives

    The Dmm have all the possible industry standard ways for there drives to be wired or controlled and more than most have all in one package



    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    That sounds about right, I seem to recall doing the job about end of 2016, I recall the part number was almost identical to Yawakaw servos. I was told
    at that time, incorectly probably, that Omron owned Yaskawa. I do recall they were bloody expensive and I thought at the time 'they may be good but they
    aren't worth that much'.
    The part numbers that Omron used are nothing like what any of the Yaskawa model # where, there was a series that used a YO at the end of the model #, these did have the same part numbers but I doubt that you would of seen any of those in NZ


    So the only servo drives at the time of Omron sales of Yaskawa servo Drives they where called OYMC these did have almost the same model numbers but this was not common to see here are what was normal
    Mactec54

  17. #17
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,

    Dual encoder feed back is done with hardware and at the control, not at the servo drive, it has nothing to do with servo drives
    That is not correct in the case of the Delta A2-L series servos, they have two encoder inputs on the drive, one the regular encoder mounted on the servo
    and another mounted on the load. The attached pic is of the A2 user manual and describes the connection CN5 being for a linear encoder.
    The regular encoder is connected to CN2 per the attached.

    Thus BOTH encoders are connected to the drive....not the motion controller.

    Craig

  18. #18
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Is any other brand also offers servo drives with 2 encoder import for closed loop motion?

  19. #19
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,
    my understanding is that most of the top and middle tier servo manufacturers have that feature.

    To date my research has carried only as far a Delta. The B2 series does not have dual encoders whereas the A2 series does.

    Remember that even a servo drive with a single encoder input is closed loop controlled but its output is angular position whereas
    dual encoder drives allow both angular position AND linear position.

    If your ballscrews were prefect, and many are good to very good, then angular position is equivalent to linear position. It is only when there
    is backlash, varying pitch of the ballscrew or significant flexure in the machine where linear feedback (in addition to angular) becomes useful.
    Even under those circumstances you are using an expensive servo to correct faults with the machanical parts of the machine. I rather suspect that
    the premium paid for dual sensing servos could better be used correcting those faults.

    One industry sector that does use dual linear feedback is the semiconductor industry, but there they use interfeormetric linear scales, a quantam leap
    better again (performance and expense) than linear scales for CNC machines. In this circumstance its not that the ballscrews or any other part is
    substandard but rather the accuracy demands are measuresed in nanometers not micrometers.

    Craig

    Craig

  20. #20
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by janis93 View Post
    Is any other brand also offers servo drives with 2 encoder import for closed loop motion?
    Dmm have a good system and at a lower cost DMM | AC SERVO DRIVE | AC SERVO MOTOR | ROTARY ENCODER
    Mactec54

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