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IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Servo Motors / Drives > Delta servo drives and servos.
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  1. #1
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    Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hello

    I am planing to upgrade my nema 34 stepper system (1090oz-in) and leadshine EM806 drives 60v psu to servo system. Ballscrews are 2020, direct drive at the moment.
    I want to get about 20m/minute rapids. It is 1000RPM, and servos are 3000rpm so I am planing to use 3:1 belt reduction.
    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/attac...d=440572&stc=1
    I want to upgrade because of
    1. I have never used servos but always wanted.
    2. I like UCCNC but I want to close the loop with linear encoders. To compensate my not so good ballscrews. and I thin I find a way to do it.

    Drives I am currently looking (delta brand).
    ASD-A2-0421-L (400W)
    ASD-A2-0721-L (750W)

    The L in the model name indicates fully closed loop drive. the drive has second encoder input for linear scale.
    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/attac...d=440574&stc=1

    Encoders i want to use
    https://www.rls.si/en/rlc2ic-miniatu...gnetic-encoder
    Resolution is 0,001mm

    My questions:
    1. Is delta drives and servos are good quality and reliability.
    2. where to buy them is aliexpress okay place? is there are some clones or something in market I have to avoid? (like stepper drivers clone leadshine etc)
    3. what power is good for my application? I have 2 motors on Y axis and 1 motor on X axis. (X axis weight is 70kg including Z axis)
    4. how complicated is servo tuning, I am read something about it but as i mentioned I am newer used one before.
    5. Is anyone used delta servos, if they are good?

    Any general information and thought about closed loop, servos, encoders, drivers are welcome.

  2. #2
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,
    I use and love Delta servos. I personally have the B2 series servos which has a 160,000 count encoder and does not have the second encoder channel
    like your proposed A2 series servos. At the time I bought them I did not realise that the A2 series had that extra feature and could be had for only about
    $50 more (each) than the B2 series. None-the-less the B2 series are superb.

    1. Is delta drives and servos are good quality and reliability.
    Good quality, reliability and backup.

    2. where to buy them is aliexpress okay place?
    fasttobuy2012 | eBay Stores

    I found this Ebay store to be if not the lowest price it was close to. They are responsive and can source direct from Delta.
    If you buy Delta servos you want to use the Delta tuning software in which case you need the programming cable. I bought
    a genuine Delta accessory cable, you'll want one.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ASDA-B2...72.m2749.l2649


    3. what power is good for my application?
    I have 400W and 750W servos, they deliver great torque, they seem to 'punch above their weight'. I would go with 750W as they are
    only $30-$50 more and are the same size as your steppers.

    I have mine direct coupled to 5mm pitch ballscerws for G1's of 15m/min (3000 rpm) but use field weakening mode for G0's of
    25m/min (5000rpm). Yes, you can induce Delta servos to run at 5000 rpm.....are you in for a treat!.

    I suspect that you could direct couple your servos......they have serious grunt and I think you could get away without gearboxes or
    belt reduction.

    4. how complicated is servo tuning, I am read something about it but as i mentioned I am newer used one before.
    Using auto-tune its very simple indeed. If you wish to refine auto-tune or have to for some reason then you can do so and there are some
    excellent tuning aids in the software. Beware that it's complicated and you could spend hours/days and still learn more. Its not that
    tuning the servo and drive are that hard it's just that servo tuning is SUCH a broad subject.

    5. Is anyone used delta servos, if they are good?
    One word SUPERB.

    Craig

  3. #3
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    What is servo drive regenerative resistor?

    When it is needed, and what it gives to my system?

    Can I program this drive also via usb port, or I need the cable you pointed out?

  4. #4
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by janis93 View Post
    What is servo drive regenerative resistor?

    When it is needed, and what it gives to my system?

    Can I program this drive also via usb port, or I need the cable you pointed out?
    I doubt that you would ever have a need for a braking ( regenerative ) resistor unless you have a mass that you are trying to stop in a hurry which could be the case when using high pitch Ballscrews

    With quality servo drives the loop is closed in the servo drive, and can be corrected by the control if out of position, but not normally not needed to be controlled by the control for what you are building

    Even with 3:1 the 400w servos will fail to perform with a 2020 Ballscrew even 750w would be at there max to run a 2020 Ballscrew so if you are looking for performance nothing less than 750w is going to do it for you

    Most servo drives can be setup ( Programed ) by using a USB cable suited for the Servo Drive

    How good are the Delta Servo system they are in the mid range in the market place, if you want a comparison Yaskawa is the number ( 1 )
    Mactec54

  5. #5
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,

    Most servo drives can be setup ( Programed ) by using a USB cable suited for the Servo Drive
    That is incorrect, the programming port on Delta servos is IEEE1394. In the marketplace there are two wiring standards for the
    IEEE1394 plug, one of which can damage the drive. I elected to buy a genuine accessory. Note also that I chose the USB-IEEE1394
    which is more expensive, a simpler RS232-IEEE1394 will cost as little as $20.

    if you want a comparison Yaskawa is the number ( 1 )
    Yep....real good....mind you they should be at 3-4 times the price.

    Craig

  6. #6
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,



    That is incorrect, the programming port on Delta servos is IEEE1394. In the marketplace there are two wiring standards for the
    IEEE1394 plug, one of which can damage the drive. I elected to buy a genuine accessory. Note also that I chose the USB-IEEE1394
    which is more expensive, a simpler RS232-IEEE1394 will cost as little as $20.



    Yep....real good....mind you they should be at 3-4 times the price.

    Craig


    Read what I posted, nothing incorrect about it you are confused again (nuts)

    " What I posted " ( Most servo drives can be setup ( Programed ) by using a USB cable suited for the Servo Drive ) I did not say the Delta Drive could be but if you have the software you can use a converter USB to RS 232 is a common way most manufacturers do it
    Mactec54

  7. #7
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi Matec,
    tough!

    Craig

  8. #8
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi Matec,
    tough!

    Craig
    Tough! for you maybe with your pretending (wedge)
    Mactec54

  9. #9

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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    I would agree that between Delta and Yaskawa, the latter would most likely be better

  10. #10
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,
    I did a job to fit Omron servos to a customers machine. I'm not sure whether Omron own Yaskawa or the other way
    around, but the servos and drives are identical excepting the logo on the front.

    There is no doubt that the Omrons were good, but in the short time I had with them did not observe any major advantage
    over Deltas say. It may well be that Omrons quality would show up over a longer time frame but there was nothing that grabbed me.

    One area that Yaskawa (Omron) have a market leading position is EtherCat, they have been EtherCat capable for quite some years
    and vie with Beckhoff for the prize as the 'best EtherCat manufacturer'.

    Craig

  11. #11
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Is any other brand also offers servo drives with 2 encoder import for closed loop motion?

  12. #12
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,
    my understanding is that most of the top and middle tier servo manufacturers have that feature.

    To date my research has carried only as far a Delta. The B2 series does not have dual encoders whereas the A2 series does.

    Remember that even a servo drive with a single encoder input is closed loop controlled but its output is angular position whereas
    dual encoder drives allow both angular position AND linear position.

    If your ballscrews were prefect, and many are good to very good, then angular position is equivalent to linear position. It is only when there
    is backlash, varying pitch of the ballscrew or significant flexure in the machine where linear feedback (in addition to angular) becomes useful.
    Even under those circumstances you are using an expensive servo to correct faults with the machanical parts of the machine. I rather suspect that
    the premium paid for dual sensing servos could better be used correcting those faults.

    One industry sector that does use dual linear feedback is the semiconductor industry, but there they use interfeormetric linear scales, a quantam leap
    better again (performance and expense) than linear scales for CNC machines. In this circumstance its not that the ballscrews or any other part is
    substandard but rather the accuracy demands are measuresed in nanometers not micrometers.

    Craig

    Craig

  13. #13
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by janis93 View Post
    Is any other brand also offers servo drives with 2 encoder import for closed loop motion?
    Dmm have a good system and at a lower cost DMM | AC SERVO DRIVE | AC SERVO MOTOR | ROTARY ENCODER
    Mactec54

  14. #14
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi,
    I did a job to fit Omron servos to a customers machine. I'm not sure whether Omron own Yaskawa or the other way
    around, but the servos and drives are identical excepting the logo on the front.

    There is no doubt that the Omrons were good, but in the short time I had with them did not observe any major advantage
    over Deltas say. It may well be that Omrons quality would show up over a longer time frame but there was nothing that grabbed me.

    One area that Yaskawa (Omron) have a market leading position is EtherCat, they have been EtherCat capable for quite some years
    and vie with Beckhoff for the prize as the 'best EtherCat manufacturer'.

    Craig
    Very strange you talk about Omron servo Drives as they don't make one them selves, for years they used to be Yaskawa rebadged with there name as did others also, but changed a few years ago, and now are selling Hitachi VFD Drives and Panasonic servo products, that they rebadged with there name now, they usually had a higher price for there renamed Drives than the same product from Yaskawa it just depended if you where an Omron fan as to which you would buy

    They also where not the first to have EtherCat Softservo was the first CNC control to develop the use of EtherCat and Servo Drives where developed to suit Copley servo drives where the first then came Yaskawa being one of the Servo Drives that was developed for the Softservo controls the EtherCat connection started around 1998 when it was first introduced

    Omron is it's own company as is Yaskawa since 1915, business is done between many different company's Name branding is not unusual

    Some of the rebadged Yaskawa Drives

    Omron
    Magnetek
    Saftronics
    Mactec54

  15. #15
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,

    Dmm have a good system and at a lower cost DMM
    Nowhere in their sales litrature, catalogue or user manual can I find any reference to dual encoder sensing.

    Very strange you talk about Omron servo Drives as they don't make one them selves, for years they used to be Yaskawa rebadged with there name as did others also, but changed a few years ago,
    That sounds about right, I seem to recall doing the job about end of 2016, I recall the part number was almost identical to Yawakaw servos. I was told
    at that time, incorectly probably, that Omron owned Yaskawa. I do recall they were bloody expensive and I thought at the time 'they may be good but they
    aren't worth that much'.

    EtherCAT (Ethernet for Control Automation Technology) is an Ethernet-based fieldbus system, invented by Beckhoff Automation. The protocol is standardized in IEC 61158 and is suitable for both hard and soft real-time computing requirements in automation technology.
    Ethercat Masters are royalty free however Ethercat Slave devices have a licence fee 'embedded in the cost of the slave FPGA'. The licence fee is payable
    to EtherCat Technology Group and Beckhoff Automation. Page 2, FAQ EtherCat Technology Group:

    http://www.ethercat.org/pdf/english/ethercat_faqs.pdf

    Craig

  16. #16
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    Hi, Nowhere in their sales litrature, catalogue or user manual can I find any reference to dual encoder sensing.
    Dual encoder feed back is done with hardware and at the control, not at the servo drive, it has nothing to do with servo drives

    The Dmm have all the possible industry standard ways for there drives to be wired or controlled and more than most have all in one package



    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    That sounds about right, I seem to recall doing the job about end of 2016, I recall the part number was almost identical to Yawakaw servos. I was told
    at that time, incorectly probably, that Omron owned Yaskawa. I do recall they were bloody expensive and I thought at the time 'they may be good but they
    aren't worth that much'.
    The part numbers that Omron used are nothing like what any of the Yaskawa model # where, there was a series that used a YO at the end of the model #, these did have the same part numbers but I doubt that you would of seen any of those in NZ


    So the only servo drives at the time of Omron sales of Yaskawa servo Drives they where called OYMC these did have almost the same model numbers but this was not common to see here are what was normal
    Mactec54

  17. #17
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,

    Dual encoder feed back is done with hardware and at the control, not at the servo drive, it has nothing to do with servo drives
    That is not correct in the case of the Delta A2-L series servos, they have two encoder inputs on the drive, one the regular encoder mounted on the servo
    and another mounted on the load. The attached pic is of the A2 user manual and describes the connection CN5 being for a linear encoder.
    The regular encoder is connected to CN2 per the attached.

    Thus BOTH encoders are connected to the drive....not the motion controller.

    Craig

  18. #18
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,
    and the control parameters to set it all up are in the pics attached.

    Craig
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DeltaA2FullClosedLoopParameters.png   DeltaA2P1-74.png   DeltaA2p1-74Settings.png  

  19. #19
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    I think joeavaerage first post has very good information. And yes I look for fully closed loop exactly as described, between driver and load position with dual encoder servo driver.
    and I use pulse drive system. 750w driver + motor from delta costs about 500 usd

    If i want to use pulse drive and dual encoder. if we compare 750w systems.
    And if someone say here yaskawa is better etc, what makes it better ?
    does yaskawa has more torque, runs smoother, has more encoder resolution, or what it has more ?
    And how much costs yaskawa solution ?
    I thin it is not worth for extra money for my application, or I am wrong? (lets say I want daily car, and I am consider buying skoda, and guys suggest me lamborghini because it is more aerodynamic?)

  20. #20
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    Re: Delta servo drives and servos.

    Hi,

    does yaskawa has more torque, runs smoother, has more encoder resolution, or what it has more ?
    1) No a 3000rpm 750W Yaskawa has exactly the same torque as a 3000 rpm 750W Delta, the physics of power generation is the same.
    2) They both run smooth, if you couldn't see which one was installed you could not tell on the basis of motion which servo is which.
    3) Who knows what resolution a Yaskawa has, the Delta has a 1,280,000 count per rev encoder, who needs more?

    At best you might say that Yaskawa might last longer....maybe.

    I bought Delta because they are good quality at a price I can afford. I could have spent double or triple to get Yaskawa but my machine would perform EXACTLY
    the same....so why bother paying all that extra?. I spent that extra getting cast iron mill beds and frames made....much better use of my money.

    Craig

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