[NIC 77]

Thanks to everyone for your replies so far.

If you look back at post #12, I attached a bunch of pics...

In the second large wiring diagram it lists the Tamagawa Seiki driver as AU6270N203E25 and shows that it is compatible with step/dir. That's a 200 VAC driver....I want to use 120 VAC wall power ideally...As previously mentioned, I don't want to move these at 1200 mm/s, which is the rated speed of the stages, 400 mm/s is plenty fine for me.

But let's say I had those drivers and was running them at 200VAC, what would be stopping me? I'd need to tune the servos still, so could I do that through the drives or would I need some software to run on a computer and a manual? Where would I get that software? Hmmm...

It also lists the 100VAC driver as AU6270N106E15, that's directed towards the 100V servos, don't know if it could be made to work with mine.

There are Tamagawa Seiki drivers to be found....but I don't know how to interpret the differences in part numbers or find the manuals, etc.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tamagawa-se.../202980051647?

TBL servo drives, 2 for $55. AU6551N282E140

I can't find anything on this page about them:

https://www.tamagawa-seiki.com/downloads/pdf/

The problem isn't that it can't be done, my problem is that I don't know how to do it.

One of the members here has the same stages that I do, and he didn't have a problem getting it done.

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-c...ry-router.html

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/bench...cnc-posts.html

https://www.cnczone.com/forums/bench...4-cnc-cad.html

He used some Emerson or Control Techniques EN-204 or EN-208 sinusoidal drives to drive Tamagawa motors. I couldn't find any of these drives on EBay less than an arm, but the point is, for him, it wasn't too hard. I just don't have the experience with it. I was looking at the Leadshine ACS806, but it looks to be trapezoidal, which the Tamagawa's don't like.

[NIC 77]

I sent an email to the JMC servo sales dept. and asked if it was 1000 ppr or 4000 ppr with quadrature decoding. We'll see what they say.

I looked up some clearpath SDSK Nema23 frame servos for a comparison.....I was surprised to see that their standard achievable resolution was 0.450 degrees.

So 360/0.45 = 800. Yeah, that's not great. The thing that struck me about that was our conversation about how the larger number of ppr doesn't just increase the resolution, it also makes the motion smoother, better. Well, the Clearpath servos have great motion. Everyone says so. That makes me think that there is some "special sauce" in the brains of this thing, and perhaps that is a more recent development for integrated servos compared to more traditional models. JMC servos might be similar.

Clearpath does have an enhanced option which brings it down to 0.057 deg, it just costs a bit more. The JMC 400W have alot more rated torque than any of the Clearpath Nema 23 frame I looked at. Note, I said rated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVYY0LxySI0

Update on the 1990 Haas VF1 X axis motor trials. First up is the 1232 oz-in Nema 34 Stepper, with a DM860A driver. The driver is good up to 80 VDC. I used the same 60 VDC switching power supply as used on the Clearpath servo in the previous video. I thought I had video of this, but it's gone. I must have deleted it. Not much different from the Clearpath servo. Achieved 250 IPM (inches per minute) with an acceleration of 12. Very similar performance to my untrained eye. Next up, we have a contender. JMC 400W Integrated Servo Motor iHSV60-30-40-48. This is slightly larger than a Nema 23 stepper motor, but it packs a wallop! I couldn't stall this motor until the numbers got ridiculous (and then it was from too fast of pulses, not a lack of power. Bear in mind this motor is as delivered, untuned. I'm sure that someone who knows how to tune these things could make it sing and dance. Also, this motor is rated 20 to 50 VDC, 400W. All I had was a 36 VDC switching power supply at 350 watts. I experienced some lags that I think are due to voltage drop when the motor is stressed. This motor ran at 1000 IPM!

[joeavaerage]

Hi,
Clearpath have opted to make their servos as basic and amenable to former steppers users as possible. One compromise they made was to
have one line of models with only 800 cpr encoders. Many a stepper user would be familiar with that....but the underlying servo mechanism is much much
better than that.

The other line of servos has a 6000 cpr encoder which is much better and I wouldn't settle for less.

The problem with Clearpath is that they are too bloody expensive. Compare a 400W Clearpath, if you can find one, and a 400W Delta, DMM or JMC. Note also that Clearpath
tend to advertise on their peak power, sounds great, but what you really want to know (and compare) is continuous rated power....and there Clearpath don't do well.
Another gripe about Clearpath is just the one digital output, called HLFB. That one output can be either 'following error' or 'overload' or 'in position signal', but only one
at a time. Delta's have eight digital outputs, all programmable, so you can have 'following error', and a separate 'overload (aka over voltage/over current)', separate 'in position'
and so on. In addition you can have two analogue outputs, say motor speed and motor current. In short because Clearpath have opted for simplicity to capture erstwhile
stepper users they have sacrificed a great deal of what makes modern AC servos so great and all at an unjustifiable premium.

Craig

[NIC 77]

750W is overkill for what I'm doing. Also, I don't think I could fit them in my stages. But that's good info to know.

I added the underline there.

I was wrong. I was looking at the JMC store on Alibaba. I haven't heard back from them, so I sent them a message there too. While I was there I started browsing their servo kits (without integrated driver) and found that at least some of their 750W servos are a drop in replacement to the 300W Tamagawa Seikis size wise.

70mm pilot, and the bolt holes match up.

Not that it matters, 750W is still way overkill. Plus the drives are all 220V. If I were to mount a spindle on this I would go for the 240V, but for what I'm doing, I don't want to pigeon hole myself into that.

So in Canada / the USA we're looking at 240V from the mains right? So for 220V drives, how much over or under voltage is allowed at the supply?

And what the heck do you do with a 200V drive?

[Al_The_Man]

So for 220V drives, how much over or under voltage is allowed at the supply?

And what the heck do you do with a 200V drive?

Normally you never size the power supply equal to the plate voltage of the servo.
Within reason, a Higher voltage, per-se, is not going to harm a motor.
Conditions that are harmfull such as over speeding or over current are taken care of in the drive.
Here is a paper on it.
Al.

[mactec54]

I added the underline there.

I was wrong. I was looking at the JMC store on Alibaba. I haven't heard back from them, so I sent them a message there too. While I was there I started browsing their servo kits (without integrated driver) and found that at least some of their 750W servos are a drop in replacement to the 300W Tamagawa Seikis size wise.

70mm pilot, and the bolt holes match up.

Not that it matters, 750W is still way overkill. Plus the drives are all 220V. If I were to mount a spindle on this I would go for the 240V, but for what I'm doing, I don't want to pigeon hole myself into that.

So in Canada / the USA we're looking at 240V from the mains right? So for 220V drives, how much over or under voltage is allowed at the supply?

And what the heck do you do with a 200V drive?

200v servo drives run fine on 240v as do the 220v drives as well, that is within the spec's of quality servo drives, I have no experience with the servos you are looking at, someone else may have run them on 240v if you put a line reactor to condition the Power this would protect the drives with a safe supply from any surges that may damage them

[Al_The_Man]

Simple, if I have 200v motors, I use drives that are rated at 240v, minimum.
Al.

[NIC 77]

I got a response from JMC. I might still buy them. Haven't decided.

I'm interested in your 400W integrated servo motors, and I have a few questions.

Below is a link to the servos I'm looking at:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000067490526.html?

Often when encoders are listed as 1000lines, it will be 4000 pulses per rev with 4x quadrature decoding.

The ad says Encoder Lines: 1000, but the manual says it has a "motor quadrature encoder input interface".

Is that 1000 ppr (pulses per rev) or 4000 ppr (pulses per rev) on these servos?

Are there any options for customization of these? Like without a keyway, or with a higher resolution encoder (the manual does mention 2500 lines)?

1000 encoder line refers to 1000ppr. Sorry we do not provide 2500 lines by far. Any if you need motors without keyway, it needs customization. May I know how many do you need?

As for the encoder type, we have our -R and -RC series, which refers to RS485 and RS485+CANopen type.

If any further questions, pls keep me posted.

[mactec54]

I got a response from JMC. I might still buy them. Haven't decided.

If it is Incremental 1000 line then you would have 4000 PPR, an Incremental encoder would be used in quadrature, if it was absolute then you would only have 1000 PPR

If this is for a CNC machine you would be wasting your time with a 4000 PPR Encoder the minimum for CNC even Hobby use is 14Bit =16,384 PPR

[NIC 77]

The sales person who responded to me may not have got it right anyway.

It does say "Encoder line: 1000 lines" which leads me to believe if it's 1000 ppr it would be 250 lines with quadrature?

I'm not sure I'm even using the right terms here. Should I be saying "CPR" instead of "PPR"?

Here's what it says in the JMC manual:

Motor Quadrature Encoder Input Interface: Differential
Input(26LS32)

https://www.jmc-motor.com/file/1806082788.pdf

But another thread talking about the mechaduino project which claims a resolution accuracy of 0.1 degree on small stepper motors with the addition of an encoder that has no moving parts got me looking around a bit more to do some comparisons.

1st: Clearpath

A resolution of 0.45 degrees standard or 800 CPR / PPR
A resolution of 0.057 degrees enhanced or 6316 CPR / PPR

2nd: Mechaduino

A resolution of 0.1 degrees using a 14b encoder that doesn't add any additional rotating components.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32966007848.html?

3rd: MDrive

https://motion.schneider-electric.co...-control-ip20/

Encoder resolution: 512 lines (2048 edges) for the link above

Encoder resolution 1000 lines / 4000 edges for the link below, you need to click on the "specs" tab to see it.

IMS, Lexium MDrive 23

4th: Leadshine Closed Loop Stepper Kits

All of the Leadshine "Easy Servo Motors" closed loop stepper motors have an encoder resolution of 1000 lines

Object reference not set to an instance of an object.

Most of the Leadshine "Standard Closed Loop Stepper Motors" have an encoder resolution of 1000 lines, a few of them are 5000 lines or 2500 lines.

http://www.leadshineusa.com/ProductS...stepper-motors

All of the Leadshine "IP65 Closed Loop Stepper Motors" have an encoder resolution of 1000 lines.

http://www.leadshineusa.com/ProductS...stepper-motors

I looked on EBay at the Leadshine closed loop steppers that people are commonly buying for their machines, all the ones I found said 1000 lines.

Interestingly, they have announced an integrated servo line with a 16bit magnetic encoder, but I can't seem to find them for sale yet.

http://www.leadshine.com/News_Show.aspx?ID=739

The more I think about it, the more I'm guessing that the JMC Servos are using the exact same encoder that is used in 95% of the Leadshine closed loop steppers.

Now does anyone have a guess as to what kind of resolution the TBL-S Tamagawa Seiki 300W Encoders have? I still have not found a manual for these. I only have the NSK manual for the linear modules, so I was able to get the pinouts, but much is still needed.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that when I google "26LS32" it comes back as a "quadruple differential line receiver". This is what the JMC integrated servo manual says it has.

EDIT #2: Multiple sources are saying that the Leadshine is 4000 CPR with a 1000 Line encoder, and some of it is so contradictory....

https://leadshineindia.com/products/...m21706-nema-17

But if you click on the datasheet in the above link it says 1000 CPR. What the heck happened to the facepalm emoji? LOL.

https://www.automationtechnologiesin...ue-1128-oz-in/

Yeah, the more I think about it, the JMC servos must be 1000 line encoders with quadrature to 4000 CPR. Any opinions on this?

[Al_The_Man]

The encoder is 1000 pules per rev which equals 4000 pulses when multiplied using all four edges (basic line count x4) , the use of a differential line driver/receiver improves the quality of transmission and reception, and is more immune to interference pick up in the encoder cable..
For many decades Fanuc, Mitsubishi and many other high end CNC used an encoder with 2400PPR.
Al.

[NIC 77]

The encoder is 1000 pules per rev which equals 4000 pulses when multiplied using all four edges (basic line count x4) , the use of a differential line driver/receiver improves the quality of transmission and reception, and is more immune to interference pick up in the encoder cable..
For many decades Fanuc, Mitsubishi and many other high end CNC used an encoder with 2400PPR.
Al.

Did you mean that the encoder is 1000 lines which equals 4000 pulses per rev / counts per rev using quadrature?

Is that your guestimate on the JMC encoder? I'm going to go back to the sales person and be like, hey, I think you got it wrong....put the tech guy on the other end.

The Fanuc, Mitsubishi, and others, was that 600 lines to get to 2400 PPR?

I'm so confused. LOL.

[NIC 77]

I guess to dumb it down for me so I understand....

With a 1000 line encoder that uses quadrature decoding for 4000 PPR / CPR,

the maximum theoretical resolution of the servo would be 360 degrees / 4000 = 0.09 degrees. Does that sound correct? Or am I out to lunch?

[NIC 77]

In the video below, he starts taking about the JMC 180W servo at 5:20, then he takes one apart. I am interested in the 400W, but it should be pretty similar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMxzRn9GrKY

The do have STM32, 32 bit chips on them.

[mactec54]

The encoder is 1000 pules per rev which equals 4000 pulses when multiplied using all four edges (basic line count x4) , the use of a differential line driver/receiver improves the quality of transmission and reception, and is more immune to interference pick up in the encoder cable..
For many decades Fanuc, Mitsubishi and many other high end CNC used an encoder with 2400PPR.
Al.

Back in the 80's Fanuc used a minimum of 10,000PPR for high end CNC's machines, that used the Fanuc control, so not sure where you got that wimpy number from, for over the last 10 years there have used 10 million PPR standard up to 40 million PPR there where some that had 60 million PPR

Here are 2 examples of the Fanuc Encoders used for the last 15 years

Encoder use is not what Fanuc chooses, it is what the machine manufacturer chooses to use, not all machines are created equal

Even back to the early Haas machines they used 8,000 PPR today they use 20Bit and 23Bit

[ducduy9104]

The encoder is incremental type so it is simple to drive those Tamagawa servo if you know automation a bit and have servo datasheet on hand.
The universal driver as below is my recommendation as it is compact and 230VAC (remember to buy one with full connectors except pins which are not used, those are not hard to find but will drive your crazy). Spend time to play with drivers like these you will love it.

ELMO MOTION CONTROLLER BAS-3/230-2
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ELMO-MOTION...sAAOSwIGleYRy6

[Al_The_Man]

Did you mean that the encoder is 1000 lines which equals 4000 pulses per rev / counts per rev using quadrature?0

If an encoder has 1000 line resolution, then it has two pulses (A&B) spaced 90° (in quadrature), this means that if you read all four edges, then it is now 4000 lines/rev. (quadrature x4).
This equals a resolution of 0.09° increments.
Many are under the impression that quadrature means x4, when actually it refers to the 90° (quadrature) phase shift between the two pulses
Compare this to the average stepper motor that is incremented using 200 steps/rev or 1.8° degree of rotation/pulse.
You can then calculate your Least Input Increment. Also the degree of axis movement/pulse based on ball screw resolution etc.
BTW, there are still many older Fanuc machines still out there in daily use, from the 6, 12, 15, and the work horse, 0M,0T, all of these mainly used either the older DC or later AC servo's, most used the 2000 or 2400 p/rev encoders .
Many industrial companies making precision parts on a daily basis
All the Fanuc's I worked on and retro-fitted had Fanuc made encoders fitted to the motors
Many machines are not physically mechanically capable of positioning to their finest theoretical resolution.
Al.

Def:
An incremental encoder employs a quadrature method to generate its A and B output signals. The pulses emitted from the A and B outputs are quadrature-encoded, meaning that when the incremental encoder is moving at a constant velocity, the duty cycle of each pulse is 50% (i.e., the waveform is a square wave) and there is a 90 degree phase shift between A and B. (quadrature)

[NIC 77]

The encoder is incremental type so it is simple to drive those Tamagawa servo if you know automation a bit and have servo datasheet on hand.
The universal driver as below is my recommendation as it is compact and 230VAC (remember to buy one with full connectors except pins which are not used, those are not hard to find but will drive your crazy). Spend time to play with drivers like these you will love it.

ELMO MOTION CONTROLLER BAS-3/230-2
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ELMO-MOTION...sAAOSwIGleYRy6

I had a look at those after your post....The BAS is the Bassoon line from Elmo:

https://www.elmomc.com/product/bassoon/

The Bassoon is a series of intelligent digital servo drives for DC brush, brushless motors and linear motors.

The Tamagawa Seiki's I have are AC servo motors. It sounds to me like these are only for DC servos?

It says they take 30V to 270V AC input power, which is convenient for both 120V and 240V. I downloaded the manual from the same page and had a browse through there....it looks like you need the "Advanced" option to use step/dir inputs, so the part number would need to start with BAS-A. Does this sound correct? Have you used any of these drivers?

[NIC 77]

Al_The_Man,

Thank you for your posts!

One thing I did find in the module manual, it says:

Resolution (travel per 1 pulse) is selecrable (sic) with driver unit setting.
The table below shows the factory settings of resolution.

Resolution / Module Main Unit / Ball Screw Lead
0.01 / S / 10
0.02 / S / 20
0.005 / H or M / 10
0.01 / H or M / 20

I have the "H" or heavy modules. The "S" are small and the "M" are medium.

20 / 0.01 = 2000 CPR

So the Tamagawa encoders have a resolution of at least 2000 CPR....they might be more, this might be the default to get the speed of 1200 mm/s that the stages are rated to.

It doesn't say way the resolution of the encoders is, just the default settings.

[Al_The_Man]

As a rule, the rate of motion is decided on the frequency response of the control or drive, for e.g. the Galil motion controllers I use, have the ability to read the encoder at 12Mhz rate.
Al.