[magma-joe]

I have been gathering info for a new CNC purchase. I started out with the idea of retrofitting my knee mill to 3 axis but after searching diferent forums I have concluded that a Fadal TRM mill or a Haas TM-1 bed style mills would be a much better choice and at a comparable cost. Last known price that I can find for a base unit Fadal TRM is $20,000 http://www.ipnews.com/archives/weste.../fadal_trm.htm and the price for a Haas TM- 1 base unit is $22000 http://www.haascnc.com/VMC_PRICE_TM.asp#toolroom .There is alot of Haas TM 1 owners out there but I have not found any Fadal owners. Does any one have any experience with the Fadal TRM or the control? I am somewhat new to cnc milling (currently have a manual mill & cnc plasma machine) so I need a user friendly easy to learn control. I have a small 2 man shop and we need the machine for proto type and low production use. Both these machines are at the upper limits of our budget so before pulling the trigger on a purchase I hoped to gather more info on the Fadal. It seems that Haas has much more after sale support availible than Fadal which is also very important to me. Thanks for any feedback you might have to offer! What is the best machine to buy???

[gar]

070715-1047 EST USA

magma-joe:

I think you may get better results with your question here than your same question you posted on Practical.

I can not answer your question, but I think Geof will likely have some comments on machine specifics.

My general comments are:
(1) I like the HAAS control for simplicity of use especially in a job shop type of environment.
(2) I much prefer a totally enclosed machine. Allows useful flood coolant, and contains chips.
(3) I never want to use a manually loaded spindle again. An adequate tool changer, meaning enough tools, will save a lot of man-hours.
(4) I would not be without MACROS, rotation and scaling, rigid tapping, and a gear box in your application.

Some of these are options that can be turned on after purchase for a price.

.

[Geof]

I hardly need to make any comments gar has covered them pretty well .

If you are looking at the TM1 for the axis travel I suggest raiding your kiddies' piggy bank for the extra to go for the TM1P fully enclosed version with toolchanger and coolant. If a considerably smaller travel is okay go for a MiniMill. If you are doing jobs that are aluminum or plastic and need to remove large amounts of material quickly then you really should be looking for something with a faster spindle speed and rapids than a TM1.

You are not going to get a gearbox on either of these machines so you have to accept that they will not drive big face mills in steel where big is larger than about 1-1/2 to 2 inches. Even without the gearbox, however, they will drill easily up to 1" and tap perfectly well up to 5/8".

Regarding the control I learnt on a Haas so of course I find it user friendly. Based on comments and questions I have seen on the zone here I think it probably is more user friendly than most controls but it is different so many people who transfer from other machines do not fully utilize its features.

A very important advantage with Haas is that the same control is used on all their machines, lathes and mills of all sizes. This means you never have a serious learning curve on subsequent machines and programs can be transferred between machines very readily.

[axis]

they still dont offer a tool changer on the fadal
even if you dont get the toolchanger at fisrt at least you can add it on the haas after the fact when you can aford it

[NC Cams]

Regardless of whether Gene Haas goes to the slammer for tax evasion or not, his equipment will surely survive his indiscretions.

GAR suggested that I go Haas way back when - didn't listen due to financial reasons (didn't want the payments) and now wish I had. The TM-1 would do the stuff I'm still struggling to get done on my legacy mills instead of just running parts. Then again, if I had listened to GAR and bought the TM-1, his son wouldn't be machining my masters for me either - LOL.

Seriously, look strong and hard at the Haas. The prime benefit would be the service. It is also readily adaptable to the use of 4th axis and perhaps even 5th axis with the right option package.

GAR's son's Haas' simply sit there and run - you could do a lot worse. I did and would think long and hard about not going with a contemporary, popular machine as opposed to some "legacy" device.

Spend the most you can hardly afford - you shouldn't be disappointed if/when you do.

[gar]

070715-1559 EST USA

magma-joe:

If there was any way to get a VF-2 you would probably be happier in the long run. I do not favor used machines, but many purchasers using this route have had good results.

.

[Geof]

....Spend the most you can hardly afford - you shouldn't be disappointed if/when you do.

This is good advise. About all that I can add is get at least 50% more than you think you need. I have never been disappointed by over-buying but I have regretted not buying enough capacity in a machine.

[magma-joe]

Thanks to all those who replied. I wanted this machine as a replacement for my manual mill. When I compared the TRM and TM-1 to a 3 axis CNC knee mill it seemed like a brainer. A new knee mill costs as much or more than either of these 2 machines. The table enclosure could be a problem if I need to place a long or odd shaped object on the table. Is it a lengthy procedure to remove the table enclosure? One of the forum members called the TM-1 a leaker with coolant being everywhere? Is it still an issue whith the table enclosure and ALL the factory offered guarding in place? Perhaps I should keep my manual mill and dedicate the TM-1 or TRM to cnc use only? I guess all machines have their limitations however I was hoping to use the machine for some manual work also. Is this feasible? Thanks again for the advise!!!!!!!!!!

[CJH]

Magma,

I was the one who referred to the TM-1 as the leaker. With a little pre-coolant job time, possibly 1 day at the most. You could invest in a few tubes of caulking and seal the machine up nicely. Also bend up or fabricate some sheet metal splash gaurds and have a really excellent machine.

We got our our TM as I was starting work in my current job (first trip into CNC for them). I had come from a history of running the big Haas boys with enclosures. I had gotten spoiled a bit by deep pockets $$$. But I have to say that going into the starter model wasn't that big of a deal. Actually it really felt like getting back to my routes since I had been trained on and spent a few years running old Bridgeports.

It would be a wise idea to keep the manuals, and dedicate the TM or other to strictly CNC, from a work flow stand point. The impulse is usually to dump the manuals for the automated bells and wistles, not to mention the bright flashy control. But just remember there is always a time when technology will come around to bit you in the butt. Having the steady standby will always be necessary.

As far as doing manual work on it, there tends to be, in my point of view a bit of a cumbersome nature to it. But overall keep this in mind, buy the most machine for the buck, and start making money with it. You can always take some of the profits and start socking them away for the next machine. Whether it be an upgrade/replacement or an addition.

As a side note, if you plan on doing full CNC with it and programming away from the contoller by CAD/CAM choose your software wisely and take your time. There are lots of growing pains, and a big learning curve. Don't just buy the software that is partnered with the machine. We made the choice of doing that and sometime really regret it.

Hope this helps and good luck.

CJH

[Geof]

...We got our our TM as I was starting work in my current job (first trip into CNC for them). I had come from a history of running the big Haas boys with enclosures. I had gotten spoiled a bit by deep pockets $$$. But I have to say that going into the starter model wasn't that big of a deal......CJH

I think all CJH's comments are very good but this one brings out a point that I think is worth mentioning. The Haas TM, or TL, machines are presented as starter models buy in the hands of an experienced person they are just as capable as the big boy machines. Maybe not in brute strength and speed but in the controller capacity and ability to run any programs.

I suggest forget about running them as a manual machine, develop the skill to use MDI and/or the jog handle or jog keys and your wrists and back will not get as tired.

[magma-joe]

CHJ, Geof, Thanks for your comments. After reading everyones advise and suggestions I have decided to buy the TM-1. I went to visit the local Haas Factory Outlet and they demonstrated a TM2 they had sitting on the floor. I really liked the machine and they offered free classes for learning the Haas control. They also gave me 2 of the training manuals they use in their classes.
I also found a site on the internet that offers online CNC training with a simulator as well as training in many other areas of the metal trades. It is called the Tool University http://www.toolingu.com/class_all_classes.aspx .
Funny thing they only offer CNC control training for Haas and Fanuc, no Fadal? At $65.00 a month you can take any or all the classes you want in anything they offer. Have any of you ever heard of them? Anyway with all the positive feedback, training availible, after sale support offered I was sold on the Haas. So now I have 2 final steps to take before turning the machine on for the 1st time. I have to find space in my shop for it and 2nd I need to ask for more advise on what options do you think are a must have apon initial purchase? I know most options are availible for purchase after the sale but what do you think would be a must right out out of the box? I was thinking of the table enclosure, and coolant pump. I could fab the sheet metal extensions on the sides myself. Also, is it true when you buy a new Haas that some of the software options are turned (like ridged tapping) for 200hrs and then shut off unless you pay for them and enter an unlock code? Thanks again for all the knowledge you guys have passed on to me!

[Geof]

Get the full enclosure because this way the machine comes with faster rapids and a higher spindle max rpm.

Big coolant pump is a must but the programmable coolant nozzle maybe not. Just make your own multiple nozzle array.

Air blast make your own.

Rigid Tapping, Macros, Rotation and Scaling, Spindle Orientation and some other options can all be turned on for the 200 hr trial and then bought later if you want them. It is probably best to get Rigid Tapping at the beginning.

Fourth axis can be retrofitted, I think, so you don't need to spring for it up front.

I think you have a choice of the smaller LCD display which allows the floppy drive option or the large LCD display which allows the usb; you cannot have both usb and floppy. I don't have any suggestion here because we do not transfer or run big programs. The large LCD display annoys me in some ways because they have silly flashiness but some of the extra machine info on the screen can be helpful.

If the Haas training manuals you were given are in any way similar to the manuals that come with the machines just use them to prop up the leg on a wobbly table . I find the Haas manual writers are very good at making things less clear than they should be.

If you have machining experience you should come up to speed quickly on the Haas control. My advise is don't even waste time learning their Quick Code or Intuitive (there is a laff!) Programming, take the handwheels off and just dive right in and teach yourself G-code. You might lose a lot of hair at the start but down the road you will be better off.

[NC Cams]

Maybe don't buy the 4th axis but have the amps installed - this way you can plug and play at a later date. Retrofitting the 4th is much more expensive to do later than at purchase - besides, you'll at least save the $ervice call.

[CJH]

[QUOTE=Geof;322368]Get the full enclosure because this way the machine comes with faster rapids and a higher spindle max rpm.

Big coolant pump is a must but the programmable coolant nozzle maybe not. Just make your own multiple nozzle array.

Air blast make your own.

Rigid Tapping, Macros, Rotation and Scaling, Spindle Orientation and some other options can all be turned on for the 200 hr trial and then bought later if you want them. It is probably best to get Rigid Tapping at the beginning.

Fourth axis can be retrofitted, I think, so you don't need to spring for it up front.

I think you have a choice of the smaller LCD display which allows the floppy drive option or the large LCD display which allows the usb; you cannot have both usb and floppy. I don't have any suggestion here because we do not transfer or run big programs. The large LCD display annoys me in some ways because they have silly flashiness but some of the extra machine info on the screen can be helpful.

All of what Geof suggests are good to have...

The number one option to have on the list is the tool changer.

The full enclosure on the TM-1p would be a nice feature, but that with any other options, you would buy could really jack up the price. I looked at the pricing on the TM-1P, and it starts at a base price of close to $33K. This could be a bit out of your price range from what I gather from your origonal post. That being said the ability to have the faster rapids and a higher spindle max rpm, is definitely something we wich we have on our TM. We do a lot of detail machining with micro cutters and it would great to have the faster ability. Our mill has the table enclosure with sliding doors, we did buy the chip pan extensions rather fab them. We weighed the production time labor (programing and keeping the mill busy) versuses labor to have one of us build extensions. In all honesty we wanted to keep the machine busy, and our programmers busy as well. But it could be different in your case.

Having multiple loc-line coolant nozzles does the trick on our mill for anything we do, I'm not sure if you can get the prog nozzle on the TM. Definitely go with the Rigid Tapping, Rotation and Scaling, I'm not sure about the macros, have them but never used 'em (not even sure how we would use them). We program at the PC. The hard drive with USB, is excellent if you will be doing any 3D surface machining. Another critical option in my opinion is the PFDM, it stops the spindle and locks the head in the event of a power interuption. We bought this after the fact when we had a power fault on a hot summer day at the office. It's saved my bacon on more than one occasion since having it.

Don't forget to include tooling in your budget. After it was all said and done we spent close to $40K on our mill with out the CAM software. But all money very well spent. This machine has become the work horse in the shop and we place high value on it.

One last thing, we have just looked at buying the 4th axis enhancement for it (we have a little cash coming our way), since we have been running 3 years and using a manual index head. As a shop we feel there is value in having it, just couldn't afford it earlier. But we got quoted about $16k for the control upgrade, physical hardware, and install.

Hope all this helps, and good luck with oyur purchase.

CJH

[magma-joe]

Thanks again for the advice. One option no one mentioned is the x & y way covers. At $1039.00 they are not cheap however how important are they? Since I have never owned a CNC mill I am also not familar with the programable coolant pump? If I were to ad an aftermarket pump to the system what turns off the flow during a tool change? Is this where the programable pump comes in? On the Haas website they offer 2 pumps, a high flow pump for $1,195.00 and a coolant pump kit for $729.00. http://www.haascnc.com/option_detail...2#VMCTreeModel . Do you guys know the differences other than $570.00? I am going to place an order with Haas this week!

[Geof]

Thanks again for the advice. One option no one mentioned is the x & y way covers. At $1039.00 they are not cheap however how important are they? Since I have never owned a CNC mill I am also not familar with the programable coolant pump? If I were to ad an aftermarket pump to the system what turns off the flow during a tool change? Is this where the programable pump comes in? On the Haas website they offer 2 pumps, a high flow pump for $1,195.00 and a coolant pump kit for $729.00. http://www.haascnc.com/option_detail...2#VMCTreeModel . Do you guys know the differences other than $570.00? I am going to place an order with Haas this week!

It is programable coolant nozzle.

The nozzle is driven by a little multiposition motor so you can change the aim for different tool lengths.

The theory is good but it is not as useful in practice as you might expect. I have them on several machines because they came as part of a 'value package'. The machines also have the high flow pumps so we just use many nozzles and spray coolant all over. I will also mention we have mist extractors on all our machines. This is a high flow air fan with a duct system taking the air from all the machines and pushing it through a filter to take out the coolant aerosol before putting the air back in the shop. Filling the machines with a dense coolant mist doesn't matter, nothing escapes out to the shop.

The High Flow pump is a bigger pump and motor which accounts for the difference in price. I think Haas loads it up a bit but they are in business to make money . My customers sometimes complain I load my prices a bit so I can't complain too much.

[CJH]

As far as the high flow pump...I really can't comment.

For the way covers...we don't have them on our mill, and have really never seen a need for them. We cut a variety of metals and foams, to wood products. also plastics, but feel the way wipers/seals that are factory installed on the machine do a quite adequate job. If you want extra protection then it ma be a good idea to get them, but with 3 years under our belt with the TM-1, I'm not sure ther necessary.

Hope it all works out for you, let us know how it goes.

[smittys800]

Thanks to all those who replied. I wanted this machine as a replacement for my manual mill. When I compared the TRM and TM-1 to a 3 axis CNC knee mill it seemed like a brainer. A new knee mill costs as much or more than either of these 2 machines. The table enclosure could be a problem if I need to place a long or odd shaped object on the table. Is it a lengthy procedure to remove the table enclosure? One of the forum members called the TM-1 a leaker with coolant being everywhere? Is it still an issue whith the table enclosure and ALL the factory offered guarding in place? Perhaps I should keep my manual mill and dedicate the TM-1 or TRM to cnc use only? I guess all machines have their limitations however I was hoping to use the machine for some manual work also. Is this feasible? Thanks again for the advise!!!!!!!!!!

When I got my TM-1, I also considered the table mounted enclosure, but thought I would attempt an enclosure of my own first. Glad I did, I do not have any concerns of restriction to the table, vise ECT. My enclosure consists of 3/8 MDF, sealed and painted with Plexi-glass doors. Works VERY well now after a few months of running. Had few leaks spring up, mostly from the machine itself. For the price of the HAAS enclosure, you can do better for yourself and a days labor.
Smitty

[Geof]

..... For the price of the HAAS enclosure, you can do better for yourself and a days labor.
Smitty

Except that when you buy the machine without the enclosure you cannot get the faster rapids and higher spindle speed. Or at least that is how I understand it.

Part of what you are buying with the enclosure is the ability to have faster cycle times in the future; I think in the long run that could justify the cost.

[smittys800]

Except that when you buy the machine without the enclosure you cannot get the faster rapids and higher spindle speed. Or at least that is how I understand it.

Part of what you are buying with the enclosure is the ability to have faster cycle times in the future; I think in the long run that could justify the cost.

Ah, that I did not know.
Smitty