[MACKAY9999]

Hello all,

Mazak V515/40 with M-Plus controller. Trying to figure out what is needed to fit a 4th Axis, rotary / index table and operate it through the controller, using Mazatrol, not EIA.

Option 1 : I have a Kitagawa RS160 Mac DEX lying in the shop, never been used, nothing with it other than the cable (no MacMini controller). What do I need to work this? servo drive / servo controller? will it work with Mazak? Or should I throw it?

Option 2 : Consider a Centroid RT-250 rotary table, and try to fit that.

I am totally confused, have too many questions to post...!
Does anyone know what I need to be looking at first?
What hardware do I need? Mitsubishi / Meldas stuff?
Any experience out there with Centroid rotary tables (worth considering)?

Help!!!

[NC Cams]

Adapting 4th axis from one machine to another can be a snap or a nightmare, especially if you don't know what sort of motor and/or control strategy is involved - both ways.

if the table is an indexer, you need a box to interface between it and your CNC to take an index trigger signal and turn it into a useable "code" that will properly trigger the table.

If the table is a true servo, the question then needs to be answered as to whether it is AC or DC? Tach F/B or not? If A/C, what is the proper commutation sequence? ANd so on and so forth. Definitely not a project for sissies.

In short, it is not going in any way to be plug and play unless you figure out what you have and what you need. Some study of the machine control as well as the indexer/rotary axis will be needed to figure out what you have and what needs to be done.

After having looked into "adapting" rotary tables to my mill already, I found that insufficient knowledge about the electrics of the parts involved can lead to a difficult and/or expensive science project/machine tool adaptation lesson.

Caveat emptor

[MACKAY9999]

Hello NC Cams,

Thanks for your reply. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun so far!

I think I should abandon the Kitagawa, too many unknowns, unless anyone has a [MacMini A] controller for sale?

Other option is to buy a new rotary table, plus hardware to work with the machine from M-Plus direct, any tips on how I can check the V515 M-Plus for suitability, before parting with cash?

Thanks.

[Al_The_Man]

There are three basic ways to integrate a 4axis etc.
One is complete integration allowing the control to see the 4th axis and control by °command, even interpolated axis moves with the axis.
This requires the highest cost as in the case of the Mazak should be done by Mazak or possibly a Mitsubishi integrator.
The second method is to use a 4th axis that has its own programmable controller and is communicated to by the control by a simple M code command and the controller will issue a finish signal when done.
This is positional only, no interpolation, if needed.
This also requires some integration unless spare M codes are available on the machine.
The third is no communication to the programmable 4th axis, the CNC control will simply have M0 codes inserted at the appropriate point , when the machine stops the screen message will indicate for him to push the index controller button to position the 4th axis.
He will then push the Machine cycle start and continue.
The first two methodes needs no intervention, the third does.
Many Mazak users and others use the last option, SMW is one maker of stand alone axis indexers.
Al.

[MACKAY9999]

I've managed to un-earth 2 solutions available to me, a MAC mini A controller, which will work my MAC dex table without any modifications. Or a new servo motor/cable/MAC mini i package (need to change motor and cable on the table).

Either way, now I need to figure out how to connect this to M-Plus controller, does anyone know how. RS232 or some other interface?

Once connected how to send M codes to the MAC mini controller to control the table? How to program the M-Plus to send M codes?

[Al_The_Man]

M code control is done through the Machine control ladder, If this is a Mitsubishi control, you (or someone familier with Mits PLC) may be able to write them, if there is no spares or existing ones you can use.
M codes use the input and outputs on the PLC module.
Again, if Mitsubishi control, you can obtain PLC program info off the MEAU Manuls web site.
Al.

[MACKAY9999]

Sorry for sounding a bit clueless (it's only because I am).

Am I right in assuming there might be some connection block somewhere in the innars of the machine control where output from the PLC for an M-code command on/off can be connected via a pair of wires to pass a signal to a channel on the table controller and trigger an event?

When you say spare M codes do you mean an M code in the machine for a feature which is not installed on the machine (like for instance chip-vac on, chip vac off) [sorry don't know the M code off hand for this]?

On the same lines, is there a connection in the machine to receive M-codes (or signal) for instance to restart cycle once table has moved?

Am I getting warmer, or still completely Arctic?

Thanks

[Al_The_Man]

Some machines have M codes written that either the option is not used or is not physically installed, these can be used if you know what they are.
The M code is written when the machine logic code is written by the MTB, in this case Mazak, the M codes are passed from the CNC side to the machine logic side and most M codes require what is know as a Fin(ish) signal in order for the CNC to know it has completed, ulitmately it ends up as one or more of the ouput modules outputs, solenoid etc and operates the function is was designed for, the process then tells the control via an input (switch etc) that it has completed and the part progrogram continues.
This logic, which BTW you can usually pull it up on a screen if you know how, and see the logic in action in what is known as a Ladder diagram.
Al.

[MACKAY9999]

Thanks Al_The_Man. Sounds like I might be getting somewhere.

The operation manual gives full list of M-codes including M43/M44/M45 "Index table indexing". How do I check these M-codes are currently physically switched on in my machine?

If these are not active, is there a parameter string to change to activate them? (I suspect I have answered the question myself - check the parameters) but does anyone know where I should look on an M-Plus?

Mazak:argue:tried to rob me once with one of our QTN-250s, to turn on the chuck open/close M code (a simple parameter string change), they tried to charge a fortune, they could have told even a numb skull like me how to do it over the phone in two minutes!

If I can get the M43-M45 codes on, does anyone :idea: know where to locate the connections I should be looking for in the workings of the PLC, (where to get my table controller channels connected to)?

Thanks,

[Al_The_Man]

I am not sure what (Mitsubishi?) control is in the M-Plus.
Sometimes what they do is write the function in the and then it has to be turned on with an OP option bit in the parameters.
The chuck open/close is an example of this on the T2/M2.
The outputs for the M codes are usually shown in the hard copy of the ladder or I/O designations sheets.
Al.

[MDLang]

Call Tecnara tools http://www.tecnaratools.com/support/index.html

Tell them about the indexer you have and the machine and they will help you out with the hardware requirements and the parameters for the indexer.

Mazak is often a dead horse but if your control is so equipped you can call Mazak service in L.A. and with some persistence they can tell you what parameters to change to have the control recognize the indexer.

I have recently installed a Kitagawa 4th on a Fusion 640 machine and it is very doable if your able to follow instructions and be thorough, but there is no way on God's green earth you'll complete the job from scratch with assistance from the forum. I intend no offense to anyone but there are far to many variables involved.

Accessing the indexers servo parameters alone will be impossible without knowing the sequence involved and the code (For example 1311 on a fusion 640). There are also allot of machine parameter settings that are 100% dependent on the hardware involved.

You can do it but you will need the help of the manufactures of the equipment involved to make it go a smooth as possible.

Trust me.

Mike

[MACKAY9999]

Thank you to everyone who helped (especially Al & Mike).

I managed to sort this out with the help of three OMRON $5 relays which were "missing" from the relay board in the mill.

With addition of 3 cheap connectors now able to use m-codes M43, M44 and M45. Will work from any Mazatrol program using the M-Code unit direct. Should also work in EIA, not tried yet. (maybe someone can confirm).

M45 to "start" indexing plus two spare M-codes (if required) to work other features on the the index table via the table controller (change index program, return to zero etc.).

IMPORTANT: You also need to return one pair of wires from the index table controller (connect them to the correct terminals in V515 TU board) to "finish" the m-code after indexing. This will allow your program to continue after the table indexes.

Configuration : MILL>>>>TABLE CONTROLLER>>>>INDEXER

The terminal connection numbers, relay mounting positions and PCB connectors are all shown in the electrical handbook for the machine. Yup, O.K., I should have read the handbook first!

You don't need to mess with parameters, ladders or anything else.

Hope this helps others with the same question.

Thanks...

[rotec]

Hey Mackay9999,
I found your thread and its almost the same as what I'm trying to do!
We have a Mazak VQC 15/40 with M2 control. We would like to use an indexer that is triggered via the Mazak control.
Here's our cunning plan.
1. Use Mach-3 as a pc based PLC that controls our stepper motor driven indexer, which will just be a converted rotary table geared to a stepper motor.
2. The Mach-3 will receive a trigger from an M code output from the Mazak, this will initiate an indexing movement.
3. Once the index is complete a signal is sent from the PC (Mach-3) and back to the Mazak to continue machining.

Some questions I have.
1. Would I just use the M43 contacts in the Mazak to initiate the Mach-3, is this just a closed contact state required to initiate?
2. How does the return signal back to the Mazak from the mach-3 work and what sort of circuit is it and where do I find this?

I purchased the machine second hand a few years back, I don’t have all the books so if someone could share me some wiring information that would be great.

See attached what the relay board on the Mazak looks like, is this the same as Mackay9999's?

[northwestlee]

Mike,

If I am reading this correctly you field installed a Kitagawa 4th axis on fusion control in the field?
Full fourth or position only?
Mac-mini control box or not?
Are you running this through EIA or Mazatrol?

Wow!! very interesting.

Also, I don't mean to jack this post but does anyone have Mazak/Mazatrol/EIA experience with using Macro-B and RS232 communication for 4th axis applications? We are trying to get somewhere between basic M-code operation and full blown control integration with the control.

[MACKAY9999]

Hello northwestlee,

Fitted a kitagawa indexer, using a MAC Mini table controller working from an M-Plus controller (see earlier entries on this post). Basically the setup uses one of the spare M codes available on most Mazak machines ; In our case M43, M44 or M45 ; any of which can be used to trigger the relay to close the circuit which in turn tells the MAC mini to index (you need only one of these M codes to make it index, if you feel you want to, you can wire the others to control another function of your MAC mini, (like advance or retard program numbers etc.) [optional].

There is detail in the electrical handbook explaining the relays, their locations (and connectors, depending on your machine) that you will need to get your M codes going.

Sad to say this will give you an indexer only, not full 4th axis as it lacks the servo controller and optional 4th axis option from Mazak, however it will work with mazatrol or EIA as an indexer, controlled with the M code(s) you chose above.

IMPORTANT: For this to work properly you also need to return the one pair of wires from your MAC mini (the finished index signal). In our case (Mazak V515) we connected this pair between the "m-code finished" terminal in the TU board ((refer to electrical diagram for your machine)) and ground. This closes off your index M code after indexing and returns the relay to normally open which allows the machine to proceed to the next line of code in your program.

TIP: Once you get this working, during programming remember to make sure your tool is clear of your indexer and workpiece, before indexing!

Hope this helps.

Good luck!
Bruce.

[rotec]

Hi All,

A progress update.

I’ve been building my indexer and so far its working fantastic. I converted my manual Vertex 8" rotary table to a CNC indexer by replacing the manual handle with an adapter flange to accept my NEMA 34 stepper motor. I tightened up the worm and wheel and thrust washers so it has next to zero backlash.

I’m using the Mach3 software as a PLC for the indexer. So every time the Mazak closes the M43 relay this initiates a pre programmed move on the Mach3, then once the Mach3 is done and the indexer is in its new position the Mach3 sends a start command back to the Mazak to continue its work.

The 90:1 rotary table reduction plus the 1/5th micro steps from the Gecko driver make for an incredible accurate indexer 1/100th of a degree is no problem!

Thanks to Mackay9999 for his tips on the Mazak interface. Though this would work on any CNC machine if you new that basic wiring.

[rotec]

Makay9999,

Last link in the chain is to find where to put the return signal from the mach3 to confirm the indexer is finished and cycle start the mazak. It has an M2 control and I cant find the start inputs for this.

Are you basicaly using M0 to halt the Mazak prior to the indexer move and then using a cycle start input from your indexer to start the Mazak machining again?

Does your indexer use a relay to close a circuit in the Mazak to cylcle start or just a light circuit?