[carbidecraters]

Who is running a retrofitted Fadal? How much do you have into your control? I was looking at numeryx controls...they seem pretty interesting with feeds of 600-1200ipm. Wouldnt this wear the living hell out of the ballscrews?

[AndyB]

Actually the 5 Fadals that I service wear less then other Fadals.
Yes I said they wear less. It all has to do with motion control.

[Drassk]

I'd be really interested to hear more about this as I've definitely 'outgrown' the control on my Fadal. The Numeryx controllers are apparently quite good, although they do cost an arm and a leg...

[carbidecraters]

Very interesting but I think numatiX and numeryx are the same company.

Here are some specs

Total number of controlled axis
8

Total number of spindle axis
1

Number of following axis
2

Feed range
0.51 to 64,000 mm/min (0.02 to 2500 ipm)

Maximum encoder counts per second
4,000,000

Maximum acceleration
10g

programmable limits for maximum feed
Per axis: positioning, jog, dry run feed

programmable limits for maximum acceleration
Per axis: positioning and interpolation

Jog
Common: positioning and interpolation

Feed rate override

Up to 31 programmable steps, 0.0 to 199.9%

Maximum table travel per command
Approximately 1 Kilometer

Maximum rotary travel per command
10,000 revolutions with optional electronic unwind

Control accuracy
15 Digit floating point

Maximum value of any dimension
1,000,000,000,000.0000

Range of dwell
.01 second to 300,000 years

Maximum program size
40 GiG Hard Drive

Tool data storage
254 tools per table (mixed inch/metric data)

Lead screw compensation
1 Table per axis, variable size (random points)

Mapping (3D compensation)
1 table of unlimited size. (Full geometry correction)

Compensation table size
65,000 random location points

Digital I/O's
up to 144 inputs, 144 outputs

Analog and odd I/O's
up to 18 addresses (analog I/O's are multiplexed)

Look-ahead distance
80 buffers (approximately 15 inches)

Parameters
100 for programs, 100 for canned-cycles (15 digit)

Parameters in user defined arrays
8200

PLC registers
400 (16 bit)

Compilers
CNC Programs: virtual code
PLC programs: native intel code

[carbidecraters]

Now please someone tell me why a little company can come along and make this killer controller but Fadal hasnt updated their "own" controller since the ninties? If Fadal knew how many customers would like a faster control they would be stepping into the retrofitting market as fast as you can say two cents.

[Scott_bob]

Who is running a retrofitted Fadal? How much do you have into your control? I was looking at numeryx controls...they seem pretty interesting with feeds of 600-1200ipm. Wouldnt this wear the living hell out of the ballscrews?

Carb,

I moved to Colorado last summer of 2006. Before that, I was promoting as many Fadal customers as I could locally and here on the zone to consider the retrofit option.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2294

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3363

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=462

Have you seen a Fadal with a Numeryx control?
Numatix is a stolen copy of the above and is also not as current...

Of the 5 or 6 midwest shops that I interviewed, none but one had issues with increased wear. But this shop was cutting huge 10,000 lb dyes on their boring mill and wearing out the ballscrews moving that mass around... So they slowed the maximum feed / rapid rate to 400 IPM and fixed the wear problem.

So according to these Mold and Die Shops, without this added productivity and improvement to quality they would not be able to compete. They tend to be somewhat secretive about this reality as it is their competative edge.
I have been to the shop shown in the opening blog. They allowed us to do a test cut on a 3 cavity mold. Cycle time went from 24 hours of machine time on our fadal with a MP32, to 7 hours. Same program, same RPM, same cutting tools. Only difference was the control. You should have seen the surface finish, it was way better and no broken tools either.

We recut this same mold on another CNC with 20k RPM and got the cycle time down to 3 hours! And the accuracy and surface finish was better! This is no exageration, the control makes this much of a difference...

The result of this project was the installation of a Numeryx control on a 1994 Fadal with 15k RPM. As with any new development project, there were issues. None that detracted from the fact that on our production parts machining we shaved off 65% of the machine cycle time. On the Mold machining we expected to be 300% faster and more accurate. This was the average improvement that those 5 or 6 midwest mold shops saw in their cycle times.

This approach is not for the faint of heart. This solution like any unorthodox buisness decission, is not without risk. On the other hand, in my opionion staying with the Fadal control is a losing buisness decission, both in quality and cost of production. It would be just too expensive to toss away productivity like this for a very low investment. Some companies even offer a "lease option" for payment on this upgrade...

I suppose I should pay the price of the gold membership here on the zone, so I can post the videos of the Numeryx controled Fadal cutting Aluminum at programmed feed rate of 500 ipm to tolerances of +/-.002 easily. It is just impossible to believe until you see it for yourself...

I really hope more interest on this subject happens. I have been considered "one who beats a dead horse" on this subject. Oh well, sometimes you just can't overcome ignorance.

[carbidecraters]

You have some very interesting information Scott. I saw a 6030 on ebay with the numeryx control...in fact I think its still for sale there. I think the 1993-1999 fadals were the best years and would probly make great retrofits. If only I have 30K to play with at this time.

[AndyB]

Just to clear up the politics about the control. The brains behind this control and software is Gil. read his personal story at..

http://numeryx.com/cnc/index.htm

Numeryx is updated from time to time by Gil because he is the original software writer and still supports his product.

"Numatix" is the old version (about 7-8 years) that an X-partner is selling.

Compare the versions like running Windows 3.1 and Windows XP on your PC.

4 of the machines I service have the older "Numatix" software and they are still running today just fine. 1 has the new software/hardware upgrade.

[carbidecraters]

I read Gils story...fascinating!

[Scott_bob]

To all Fadal owners,

30k may sound like a lot.
But sit down and figure out what your machine time is worth or your hourly shop rate.
If you can figure out what your cost or burden rate is per hour.

If you could double your productivity, improve your quality, reduce your burden rate (after the initial upgrade) because of reduced wear and tear on equipment and cutting tools, why wouldn't you consider this option?

In the statement above, I said "double" your productivity. That means your average cycle time would be 1/2 as long as before. That would be in my opinion a conservative estimate. Remember, the shops I interviewed were "300 percent average" faster than before, and more accurate. In the test cut I mentioned above, when we were able to use a machine with 20k RPM (2x faster than our Fadal with 10k, and this of course would require additional investment) our time to produce our 3 cavity mold went from 24 hours to 3 hours. Now, the guys who have more expensive machines with better controls (not Fadal) would say, how can that 14" x 14" three cavity mold take 24 hours? On a Fadal with 10k spindle you can only program the feed at F15. when using a 1/32" B.E.M. small .002 step overs (Ramax Stainless Steel: Rc38-40). But on the Numeryx Control the "programmed feed rate" was F120. and S20,000

Now the control is not always moving at F120. the "look ahead" slows the feed depending on the upcoming geometry either sharp corners or small radii automatically, then speeds up when it can. No jerks, no delays, no movements that would damage that 1/32 B.E.M that has only 1 feed rate command of F120.

This control and it's highly developed look ahead, smooth feed compensation, bell curve acceleration in both feed and rapid motion, and extremely accurate "feed back loop system", is not a new control. This control and a few like it have been around since the 1980's and even before (read Gil's story)

I think you owe it to yourself and your buisness to go see one for yourself. What would a trip to Detroit cost you? Or go to one of the many high speed machining shows that one of these vendors are going to be at. Better yet, put together your own test cut, run it on your Fadal, then go watch it run on a CNC with their control.

If you watched 50 videos, you would not have the same impression as seeing with your own eyes.

Seeing is believing,

[carbidecraters]

What other controllers are their out there?

[Scott_bob]

In my opinion this option of replacing the control on a CNC machine should only be done by qualified companies that can service that installation when needed, as I am sure everyone would aggree.

http://www.creat.com/retrofits.shtml

Todd Schuett started out with Gil Hagiz back at Sharnoa in the early days co-developing the Tiger control. Both of these men have since developed their individual controls for the high performance machining industry.

Todd is one of the most well respected industry leaders in the US, and writes a great deal about high speed machining in a lot of the best magazines you have read concerning high performance machining. His website is the best source for this level of performance.

I would consider either one of these to be hard to beat, and by far the best PC based controls out there. And when it comes to high speed motion control, better than Fanuc from what I have seen, and much less expensive.

http://www.fagor-automation.com/Prod...NC/default.htm

Is another, but I have no dirrect experience with one...

Good luck,

[mactec54]

Hi Carbidecraters

Take a look at

SoftServo Control High-speed / High-Precision Machining
60m/min or 2,400in/min Cutting if your machine can handle it.

1000 cycle three Dimensional Dynamic Look-ahead
and the price is good too

I have this Control and would not have anything else it is also
the easiest control to use and set up as a retrofit almost plug
& play.

[Al_The_Man]

I have this Control and would not have anything else it is also
the easiest control to use and set up as a retrofit almost plug
& play.

I checked their site, some of the nitty-gritty details seem to be missing, but I gather this is a network based communication system where the PC control loop is closed via the network and the servo loops are closed back to the drives initially?
What network drive system did you use and what is the approx cost for a basic mill or lathe package, software only?
Al.

[CarbideBob]

Carbidecraters,
In your first post you mention 1200 IPM speeds.
Machine speed is limited by motors and ballscrews installed. Putting the worlds fastest control on your machine won't make the motors go any faster. Newer controls with high speed machining lookahead may reduce your cycle time if your program is written poorly. A high end cam system can optimize feedrates for older controls giving you the same results.
In 3-D contouring you may be limited by the block processing time of an older control. In this case a faster controller allows you to throw smaller segments at the control which results in better finishes.
Typically a retrofit will include new motors, drives and possibly faster pitch screws to speed up the machine. Newer controls may also add features that you may not have had before. Things like auto tool length setting, part probing, 4th and 5th axis control, 5 axis tool compensation, special cycle macros, etc. can be big time savers for small batch production.

Al,
Carbidecraters asked "What other controllers are their out there?"
I gather that you've done a few retros on production size machines.
What controllers have you used and what do you like the most?
Is there a comparison or discussion here anywhere of different systems used for retrofitting large machines? (eg: Fanuc, Fagor, Camsoft, Centroid, Numeryx.. etc)
Which are the easiest to setup? What kind of special programmers, software and such are needed?

Bob

[Al_The_Man]

Of the main players, I have retrofitted Fanuc and Mitsubishi, and have a smattering of Fagor.
I like Mitsubishi for several reasons, ease of integration, support, free software and sometimes, free training, if you make to them.
Fanuc is expensive and I had the feeling they are not interested in the non-MTB. Also you pay for All & Everything, they have even took their support engineering documents and files off their site, it looks like you have to register with them to get any .
Fagor support is good and they have an excellent product.
If I was retro-fitting a machine that I could use the existing servo's and drives, I would seriously look at Fagor.
I have designed a few simple systems around the Galil card and really like it, using either native language or some HMI software.
The one thing I had against Camsoft/Galil was for the price, I still had to write G codes, I know the onus of writing of M,S,T, and machine control code is the responsibility of the MTB.
But If you are a DIY operator and you have time it is OK, but if I am retrofitting a control for a customer time is money, so at the time, I felt for the price, I should not have to spend time writing G code functions.
I have also used Acroloop Acrocut/Plasma and Acromill which were excellent DOS based packages that were unfortunately discontinued when bought out by Parker.
Obviously the preference is subjective and in light of the fact that I have not retrofitted all controls, I can only comment on the one I have, but I come in contact everyday with different controls and I get a feel for what is out there.
There also is a misconception that the main player systems are out of reach, both in cost and integration, in fact if you have a system that requires the replacement of servo's, drives and spindle motor & controller, by the time you factor in the time using a low end system, it will be very close, price wise to Mitsubishi e.g.
I am not including the PC based parallel port systems as these are not generally used by retrofitters in the larger Industrial setting.
The bottom line is, if you have never done a retrofit before, it is going to take you time, whatever control you use.
No such thing as plug and play, whatever some of these systems claim.
Al.

[CarbideBob]

Al,
What is a ballpark price tag for for hardware/software involved for retrofitting a Fadal VMC with a Fagor system using existing drives/motors? (not including integration/installation time charges) .
How much for a full Mits controller, motor and drive system? Just trying to get an idea of system cost for something like a 3 axis VMC.
Previous post mentions 30K, I'm assuming this includes integration, installation , and training.
Bob

[Al_The_Man]

I haven't priced out the Fagor as yet, Full system for Mits runs between 10k~20k depending on the servo & spindle size.
A few years back, Mits was dumping some lathe package systems for $7k, they would upgrad to Mill if prefered.
Al.

[carbidecraters]

We dont do alot of 3D milling at our shop to try and convert this to a mold making machine. We have alot of short runs...alot of short run (Whew) and increased rapids and feeds sound nice but these days you can have the one you were going to retrofit and two other Fadal mills for these prices.

Maybe I am a cheap a## but thats our work load.

[mactec54]

Hi Al The Man

Re SoftServo Control

To get the details you have to go to a different site with a password

The Computer has a fiber-optic board just 1 fiber-optic cable from the
computer to the servo drives which are daisey chained together the
rest is done in software this is one way of doing it with there system. If the servo drives have fiber-optic connections.

The most common way with basic servo Drives is with there DC-120 which has the fiber-optic cable connection from the computer. The drives and I/0 plug into this box, it has 4 axes per DC-120 and 2 I/0 brakeout boards can be pluged in as well. I'am not sure on the pricing at this time as there are
many different options in the software but I could find out if you are interested send me a PM.

If you look at there computer on there site the F keys around the screen is all that is required to do every thing from running the machine to loading or to edit your program no other buttons are needed if you dont want them. A hand wheel plugs into the computer the computer comes standard with 40/80
Gig hard drive 2 USB ports the floppy may not be on some as they have
changed the computer style Ethernet/Printer/Com (1) (2)(3)Local I/0/ if you want more buttons/VGA for a extra remote Montor /Mouse/Etc The computer
is loaded and ready to run or you can do it your self with your computer I have worked with or installed all of the other controls that are mentioned in this post but as to date this is by far been the best system I have found.