[big_mak]

I am slowly getting ready to get a CNC Lathe.

I imagine that our buget would be around $60K when it's all set and done.

I was tinking Haas, Hurco, and Femco, maybe Hardinge. I'm not so sure what to look for.

I've been a mill guy for my whole CNC career. I'm fine on a manual lathe. Just not sure what kind of options shoulg be considered. I'm not looking for anything Big. Nothing that we would need a crane to load parts with.

[Geof]

What type of work? Shafts, castings, barfeed for production, how big, how long, threading, ......????

One thing I can say is that I find the Haas Toolroom lathes with the toolpost in a conventional location much easier to set up for quick one-off jobs than a typical rear turret tooled CNC lathe.

I don't know if the auto toolpost is available one anything larger than the TL2 but it is a great help even with only four tools.

[big_mak]

I was waiting for an answer from you Geoff. I was thinkning something in the SL-10-20 Range. It will be for production Stuff eventually. Like I said I don't want to do stuff that requires a crane to load the machine. Smaller end. At the same time something flexable enough for a job shop environment.

I've seen your setup, and your barfeeders. Slick!!!! Have they proved reliable? I've not heard much good about the Haas Supplied barfeeders.

I'm looking for comparisons between the brands. I know Hurco is new to lathes. And there are a few guys out there with Femco machines. Just looking for opinions.

I'm happy with the VF-3 I got just less than a year ago. The only issues I've had were software related, and that's to be expected with a new version of the control. Just wish they'd speed up the refresh rate!!!!! Drives me a bit bonkers sometimes.

[tobyaxis]

I was waiting for an answer from you Geoff. I was thinkning something in the SL-10-20 Range. It will be for production Stuff eventually. Like I said I don't want to do stuff that requires a crane to load the machine. Smaller end. At the same time something flexable enough for a job shop environment.

I've seen your setup, and your barfeeders. Slick!!!! Have they proved reliable? I've not heard much good about the Haas Supplied barfeeders.

I'm looking for comparisons between the brands. I know Hurco is new to lathes. And there are a few guys out there with Femco machines. Just looking for opinions.

I'm happy with the VF-3 I got just less than a year ago. The only issues I've had were software related, and that's to be expected with a new version of the control. Just wish they'd speed up the refresh rate!!!!! Drives me a bit bonkers sometimes.

Software issues set aside you already have a HAAS so why not stick with them. You already have experience with their controls too. If you need a better machine go with the Hardinge Talent or Quest.

[big_mak]

Toby,

I also have experience with a few differnt Fanuc's from antiquated(3000C) to pretty much up to date 16 and 18i.. I've also worked with Yasnac I80 and J300 and some bastardized GE controls. Even had a stab at Siemens 840D.

SO control isn't a huge thing for me. I'm looking @ the total package. I haven't seen much Hardinge in my travels around here, and didn't pay too much attention to them @ IMTS as I was there shopping for Japanese Horizontals.

[tobyaxis]

Toby,

I also have experience with a few differnt Fanuc's from antiquated(3000C) to pretty much up to date 16 and 18i.. I've also worked with Yasnac I80 and J300 and some bastardized GE controls. Even had a stab at Siemens 840D.

SO control isn't a huge thing for me. I'm looking @ the total package. I haven't seen much Hardinge in my travels around here, and didn't pay too much attention to them @ IMTS as I was there shopping for Japanese Horizontals.

Would you consider Mori Seiki, Nakamura-Tome, Methods Matsuura, Ikegai, Dainichi??? These are the Best of the Best when it comes to Quality Machine Tools.

http://www.methodsmachine.com/Machin...a/default.aspx


Cheers!!!!

[big_mak]

The place I was working @ bought a $1,000,000 FMS from Matsuura. I'm pretty familiar with their Horizontals MAM-500-PC11 and ES-450, and H-Plus 300. Nice machines. Nak is a beauty, but I don't have the $150k to drop on a little lathe. If I had my choice, I'd probably go the Mori route, but budget plays a big role. Being a young 2 man shop, this kinda dictates the Haas/Hurco/FEMCO/Hardinge Route.

Haas is Ok It's familiar.

Hurco - I thinks their Lathes are too new, and their controls just ooze cheap.

FEMCO - Looks good, I've heard some good things, and not many bad. Durga Option looks ultra kewl.

Hardinge - Not heard much at all really.

Gimme some feedback boyz!!!

[Geof]

....Gimme some feedback boyz!!!

SL10 with the Big Bore option, Tailstock, High Volume Coolant Pump, Chip Conveyor and maybe a few other things I can't think of now.

Then when you find it doesn't work out I will take it off your hands for a modest discount .

P.S. You can omit the tailstock if you don't need it...I don't either.

[tobyaxis]

The place I was working @ bought a $1,000,000 FMS from Matsuura. I'm pretty familiar with their Horizontals MAM-500-PC11 and ES-450, and H-Plus 300. Nice machines. Nak is a beauty, but I don't have the $150k to drop on a little lathe. If I had my choice, I'd probably go the Mori route, but budget plays a big role. Being a young 2 man shop, this kinda dictates the Haas/Hurco/FEMCO/Hardinge Route.

Haas is Ok It's familiar.

Hurco - I thinks their Lathes are too new, and their controls just ooze cheap.

FEMCO - Looks good, I've heard some good things, and not many bad. Durga Option looks ultra kewl.

Hardinge - Not heard much at all really.

Gimme some feedback boyz!!!

Hardinge is a Tough Machine and Comes Standard with a Fanuc Control.

[big_mak]

COme on!!!! There must be some one with a Horco LAthe or someothers out there. Help me out guys.

[g-codeguy]

I am one of those guys with over 20 years experience, but, unfortunately, it is all in one place. So I don't have as much experience as many having the same number of years in the business.

Of the machines you listed, I am only familiar with the Hardinge lathes. I started on CHNCs (no longer have any), but we soon went to the Hardinge Conquest lathes. All but one of ours are barfeeds with the exception of the EMAGs which load from prisms. Two with tailstocks, the rest with subspindles (again except EMAGS). The oldest (has OT control) is about 20 years old and still going strong. Several of our lathes run from 7 a.m. to 2 a.m. Would run more of them, but it is hard to find anyone willing to work nights.

Don't know what kind of work you will be doing. Our 51 Conquest (another OT control, and older machine) is set up with a 2-jaw chuck, and I don't think its tailstock has ever been used. However the oldest Hardinge is running with the tailstock as I speak. It doesn't get used often, but is indispensable when you need one.

About my only dislike with the 42 series is the limited distance between the main spindle and the subspindle/tailstock. The 51 is much better in this area as it is a bigger machine. I have nothing to do with purchasing, so I don't know if any of these models would fit within your budget. Sorry, but I've never checked online either.

We are currently running 10 Hardinge lathes. Most of them with 18 controls. I would suggest the 18 or 21 control. The OT doesn't have an equal sign so you can't change variable values from within a program on the control. I can't understand why any control would be purchased without Macro B option. Hardinge lathes come with a deep drilling subprogram that works very nicely. Don't let Hardinge know, but I use it on all our Fanuc controlled lathes. I also use their safe index subprograms on all the lathes that will work the same way.

We run 8 other brands of lathes, but you didn't ask about any of them.

Almost forgot. We have had to rebuild the turret on one of the T42 lathes twice after switching to water. Finally went back to oil. No problem since. However the other T42 purchased at the same time hasn't had this problem, and is still running with water based coolant. The one running water is a Big Bore (20C collet) and has broken the belt that drives the subspindle several times. (Subspindles all use 16C collets.) The one with turret problems has only broken a couple times. I think you can get a heavy duty belt which is what we did. They will still wear out over time. Both these machines run 2 shifts.

The Hardinge barfeeds have good and bad points. 12 and 6 footers are available. You can only load one bar at a time, and it needs a 30 degree chamfer on the pusher end. The bigger the material the slower the maximum RPM. Max RPM varies depending on which length barfeed you have. Hex material is run slower yet.

Good point is open the collet and material is instantly pushed against the barstop. Put contol in manual to open collet with push button, and there is no pressure against the bar, unlike the IEMCA we have on one Hardinge. Lost some meat on a finger learning that! :nono:

Other quick change barfeeds can be set up to leave the pusher inside the spindle for faster barfeeding. Tried it a couple times, but didn't like the results. Too often the pusher would start whipping, so we retract all ours to home position. Makes for longer cycle times, but is much safer.

Edit. Forgot to mention that I much prefer the Hardinge collet set up. We are running some Daewoo Lynxes with 16C collets. Daewoo uses an adapter, and the collet sticks out several inches in front of the wall. Two problems with this set-up. First is chatter. The adapters are more prone to it with smaller parts. I don't care what the office people say about how sturdy it looks! Second is holding power. I can make .08/.09 D.O.Cs at F.01 in 52100 all day on the Hardinges without the bar pushing back. (This is on the 42 series.) For the Daewoo Lynxes I went to G71 canned cycles anytime there is very much material coming off. Have to keep the cuts to no more than .05 DOC. .06 is enough to push the bar back. I often will go into the .03s and increase the feedrate to F.012. Drill feedrates have to be kept way down also.

Sorry for the length of the post. Get me started, and I can't shut up.

[tobyaxis]

Have you checked out Ikegai, Nakamura-Tome, or Dainichi?

[big_mak]

ja, I've checked, and they are about double of what I can pay.

Buddy just bought a Nakamura for around $150K Femco is around $60K Haas maybe even a bit less.

I have no doubt that the Japanese machines are like totally kick a$$. But I need something with a decent ROI.

If I can do the same part in the same time @ the same level of quality on a Haas as someone with a Mori, who has lower overhead?

[tobyaxis]

ja, I've checked, and they are about double of what I can pay.

Buddy just bought a Nakamura for around $150K Femco is around $60K Haas maybe even a bit less.

I have no doubt that the Japanese machines are like totally kick a$$. But I need something with a decent ROI.

If I can do the same part in the same time @ the same level of quality on a Haas as someone with a Mori, who has lower overhead?

That would be nice but I really don't see that happening.

First off, Boxed ways have more Rigidity than Linear.
Second, Japanese Machines are made with Strict Tolerances and Quality Assurance.

Third, If this was possible everyone would Dump their Japanese Machines for the others.

You want Quality, you have to pay for it.

If your starting out, get what is in your budget for now and upgrade later.

[big_mak]

I'm not looking for a who's who of Boutique machines. I'm look for a comparison of what I mentioned in an earlier post. I have a VF-3 Vert. I'm extremely happy with it. I'll get more when the work load dictates it.

The contest is about who makes the most money not who has the most expensive machines!!!!!

Personally I'd rather have a bunch of Haas machines and a Porsche in the Drive way, than a bunch of Japanese machines and a Toyoto in the Drive.

Thats just me.

[Geof]

....The contest is about who makes the most money not who has the most expensive machines!!!!!

Personally I'd rather have a bunch of Haas machines and a Porsche in the Drive way, than a bunch of Japanese machines and a Toyoto in the Drive.

Thats just me.

Oh I don't know...it could be me too. But you can keep the Porsche I will take a largish 4 x 4 so people yield to me at intersections.

[tobyaxis]

I'm not looking for a who's who of Boutique machines. I'm look for a comparison of what I mentioned in an earlier post. I have a VF-3 Vert. I'm extremely happy with it. I'll get more when the work load dictates it.

The contest is about who makes the most money not who has the most expensive machines!!!!!

Personally I'd rather have a bunch of Haas machines and a Porsche in the Drive way, than a bunch of Japanese machines and a Toyoto in the Drive.

Thats just me.

Well if you drive those machines as hard as I drive the ones at work you will be replacing your HAAS in about 5 years. Not to mention that those Japanese Machines will Triple your Haas output.

Hmmmmmm..... That seems like more profit for a Ferrari purchase. Personally I look for long term investment, not the quick few dollars.

[Geof]

Well if you drive those machines as hard as I drive the ones at work you will be replacing your HAAS in about 5 years. Not to mention that those Japanese Machines will Triple your Haas output.

Hmmmmmm..... That seems like more profit for a Ferrari purchase. Personally I look for long term investment, not the quick few dollars.

I could replace my Haas's in five years, they have more than paid for themselves and produced a profit. And I think you exagerrate with your "triple" but even if it is correct you have put about triple the money into purchasing the the machine.

If the type of job you are doing requires the extra precision that you get from an expensive machine over a Haas then there is no choice that is what you get. But if the parts can be made on a Haas you could be better off having three of them turning out parts for the same total investment. And if one machine goes down you have only lost one third of your capacity not all of it.

[tobyaxis]

I could replace my Haas's in five years, they have more than paid for themselves and produced a profit. And I think you exagerrate with your "triple" but even if it is correct you have put about triple the money into purchasing the the machine.

If the type of job you are doing requires the extra precision that you get from an expensive machine over a Haas then there is no choice that is what you get. But if the parts can be made on a Haas you could be better off having three of them turning out parts for the same total investment. And if one machine goes down you have only lost one third of your capacity not all of it.

Excellent point Geof. That is the answer that I was expecting from big_mak.

There is another reason too, can you give the answer to the next reason Geof????

[Geof]

Excellent point Geof. That is the answer that I was expecting from big_mak.

There is another reason too, can you give the answer to the next reason Geof????

I'll bite...what is it?