[mountaindew]

[QUOTE=jwatte;2406480
FWIW, my purchase absolutely came with a .. 6 months? ... subscription to Fusion, that I never bothered activating. Don't know if they still do that, but I'm pretty sure there is at least SOME interaction between Tormach and Autodesk. Marketing needs to pay attention to all the channels, not just the single biggest channel, especially if they're trying to "punch up" against SolidWorks and Unigraphics/NX and such.[/QUOTE]


Just to add my experience on this subject.
Last December I purchased a 24r router. When unpacking the machine there was a flyer for fusion 360 stuck into the manual along with some other stuff. Nothing implied whatso ever. Just a paper ad. I talked to Tormach a couple times over the last 2 years and they said real clearly they do not sell or support the product in anyway and only provide machine post on their site for ease of use. If I want professional grade cam software they sell and support Sprutcam for their machines . Their words btw

[pastaman]

"FWIW, my purchase absolutely came with a .. 6 months? ..."

I don't post much but for what it's worth I agree with jwatte. I bought a 1100M this past March and the Tormach website contained language that a Fusion 360 subscription was an integral of the purchase. And when delivered there was literature included that guided you through the sign-up procedure. I thought it was for one year but I may be wrong on that point. I didn't sign up because I was already a signed on as a hobbyist. This being said it was implied that purchasing a machine included F360. I'm sure there was language buried in the fine print that said otherwise but that is where the implied vs. legal discussion begins.

[TurboStep]

I thought it was for one year but I may be wrong on that point. I didn't sign up because I was already a signed on as a hobbyist.

So if you received a one year subscription, presumably intended for commercial users because the hobby version didn't require any form of subscription, it was limited to one year, not more. This sounds like standard advertising bait get users hooked - I'm sure this must be common practice in the US. Limited free trials are also common place for software products anyway. So far that doesn't seem to imply anything beyond this one year and I'm assuming didn't imply anything regarding the hobby terms of use because it was free at that time (correct me if I'm wrong). Its like when you purchase a washer it comes with a couple of packs of sponsored detergent. When that's used up you're on your own. It doesn't imply a life-long supply of detergent.

What actually did Tormach write that implied they were offering favorable conditions for Fusion in the future?

As far as what's legal vs what's right (from the consumers perspective) its simply down to Autodesk to make sure they're legal and anything from there on up is up to them. If the consumers don't like it and wander off they probably won't achieve the results they were aiming for, but that's a result the Autodesk management would have to live with. As in many similar real life situations we're not in the driving seat and have to accept decisions made by others, providing they're legal. Take it or leave it. The choice is yours. If someone believes they were misled, and can prove it, then by all means post this proof in this forum. I'm sure we'd all be interested to read about it, but from what I can gather so far this all would appear to be based on implications and interpretation.

Yes, Tormach did announce a partnership with Autodesk back in 2015 but apart from a few joint presentations and the inclusion of the Tormach machines and tooling in Fusion I personally didn't notice anything more than that. For the record I bought my Tormach back in 2012.
The last e-mail from Tormach I have on record which refers to Autodesk was from 2018 where they referred to a joint "Show Demo". Autodesk also changed their pricing policy in October 2018 and combined the "Standard" and "Ultimate" versions. Up to that point the Ultimate version cost around $1500. Give them another 2 years and they'll probably come up with another change to annoy users.

The real world can be a hard place and experience hurts sometimes. Don't forget business are out there with the sole purpose of making money, not making friends. Anyone who doesn't believe the subscription is worth the asking price, or is simply offended by this change, is free to move on. Complaining won't change anything. Take a deep breath and either pay or move on (or sue them if you think its worth it).

I once had a list of quotes about experience but unfortunately I lost it when I retired. A quick google search came up with this one:
Experience is not what happens to you; it's what you do with what happens to you.

Step

[MichaelHenry]

I'm not sure if it is relevant here, but Pocket NC (a desktop 5-axis mill) used to come with a 1 year subscription to F360 but they dropped that a few months ago back or more. AIR, it had something to do with F360 no longer supplying the software at no cost to Pocket NC.

[jwatte]

How long ago was that?

Oh, three years ago, so that's less applicable to the current situation, OTHER than as where expectations come from.
And, in the end, selling products is about meeting expectations. If you don't meet your user's expectations, you end up with unhappy users.

[DosDaddy]

There is an add-in that solves the new CAM limitations of Fusion 360 for Personal Use:

https://github.com/TimPaterson/Fusion360-Batch-Post

The add-in drives the post processor for each individual operation, then combines all operations for one setup into a single file. It can also look for feed-rate moves that should really be rapid (G0) moves and change them back. I use it on my Tormach and I have checked the results with other post processors as well.

The original purpose of the add-in is to process all setups for an entire project at once. So even if you have a paid version, it still has something to offer.

[soofle616]

Interesting. I'm curious what sort of algorithm is being used to determine if a move should be changed to a rapid or left alone.

[DosDaddy]

To find possible rapid moves, the add-in starts by trying to determine the feed height. Typically the first Z move is to retract height, immediately followed by another to feed height, so that's the starting point. But if the operation is boring or threading, it will be at the bottom of the hole. So if it sees a Z move combined with any X and/or Y move, it assumes that's a cutting move and resets its feed height above that. (So when threading or boring, it moves rapidly to the bottom on the first hole, then at feed rate for any subsequent holes in the same operation.)

I've used it on drilling, 2D adaptive, 2D contour, and threading with good results. It even optimized a ramp-in where the first several moves were right at feed height (I assume they were calculated as just below, but rounded back up). It does screw up if using a tapping head, as it retracts fast instead of at the speed needed to unscrew the tap.

You can always turn it off.

Feel free to look at the code (search for "Analyze code" comment). There are some comments to help.

[soofle616]

Clever. I opted to pay for the software so I don't have need of the feature, nor do the other features present any apparent benefit to me but I do applaud the author's efforts.

[Tigster]

Also, for those out there that didn't hand over $300, David Loomes came up with something called Fusion Fuser. It brings back tool changes which make this workable for some.

[DosDaddy]

Well, instead of using Fusion Fuser, you could also take look at the add-in I mentioned a week ago:

https://github.com/TimPaterson/Fusion360-Batch-Post

Here's my take on the advantages of the add-in over Fusion Fuser:
1. You don't need to use a specific modified Tormach post processor -- your regular post processor should work without modification.
2. You don't need to manually post each operation in the setup. The add-in handles not just the entire setup, but the entire design at once.
3. You don't need to run a separate application -- the add-in is a button on the toolbar.
4. The add-in can restore rapid moves.

[Tigster]

Yeah, That's hella better! What are the chances AutoDesk will know about the use of the workarounds? Another thing that sucks about cloud software. I'm paid up for the year but am not opposed to the "TimPatterson" version. God bless that man...

[metalmayhem]

What are the chances AutoDesk will know about the use of the workarounds?.

I'm sure they already know . The next change to subscriptions will likely be the removal of posting for free users .

The fact that they allow any posting to g code is extremely generous regardless the limitations , and no company has ever offered anything like this . My opinion is that if people aren't confident enough to do simple edits to make the limited code work then they should learn to .

[kstrauss]

Many of us are "confident". The problem is the wasted time plus the cost of typing mistakes.

[metalmayhem]

being confident is knowing that mistakes will not be made . I edit , modify and splice together code all the time , press cycle start and walk away .
As far as time goes , it really doesn't take much to add a tool change and splice together a couple programs .

[Adrenalinearmam]

just got a tormach 770 and learning fusion...you guys are scaring me or you are cheap. I would hope having 10's of k wrapped up in machine and tooling should be able to make an extra 300$ a year for the cad cam to run it.

[alienturtle]

may i ask where everyone is getting a year for 300? The website shows a year for 495? Did i miss something?

[Kenny Duval]

Sure. Some took advantage of an offer they did that equates to $300 a year for paying up front for a couple years. You are correct about it actually not being $300 a year.

[MARV]

Two years ago the offer was $310 per year. No limit on time if renewed every year. Now all mfg extensions included. Hard to beat.

[rcheli]

I took the offer in October when they put limitations on the hobby version and it was 801.00 for 3 years (267/yr).