[jwatte]

Effective October 1, 2020, functionality in Fusion 360 for personal use will be limited, and you’ll no longer have access to the following:

Probing, 3 + 2-axis milling (tool orientation), multi-axis milling, rapid moves, automatic tool changes
Multi-sheets, smart templates, output options for drawings (print only).
Download options from public share links
Cloud rendering
Export options including F3Z, DWG, DXF, IGES, SAT, and STEP
Simulation and generative design
Unlimited active and editable Fusion 360 documents (10 doc limit).
Fusion 360 extensions

So ... what other integrated CAD/CAM systems can I look at?
There didn't use to be anything good in the Linux world -- maybe that has changed?

I'm especially hit by the limit on document numbers -- I have tons of old cruft I sometimes go fishing in.
Also, the "automatic tool change" is weird -- does this mean I can only export one toolpath at a time? I use a manual toolchanger, but I export all the paths in a single file.

Oh, it's even worse:

No multi-axis milling, probing,
automatic tool change, rapid feed

[cyclestart]

To save people some searching:
https://www.autodesk.com/products/fu...751.1600196235
So unlimited archives and a limit of 10 active/editable documents and you're free to alter that list at any time. My guess is this is meant to inconvenience the license cheaters. Unfortunately it also inconveniences legitimate hobbyists. I'm starting to wish I'd maintained my early adopter license but they may have found a way to limit that as well. I was into it for $600 (or maybe $900) at the time.

Even with the new restrictions I still see this as the best free software available. The scary part is this may not be the end of the license changes, like a death of 1000 cuts.

There didn't use to be anything good in the Linux world -- maybe that has changed

I've kept one foot in the FreeCad world just in case AutoDesk shuts the door completely. Compared to Fusion it's buggy and clumsy but it is free forever.

[cyclestart]

Also, the "automatic tool change" is weird -- does this mean I can only export one toolpath at a time?

It's all a bit vague isn't it ? I'm wondering how the doc limit will effect some large assemblies if each component is counted as a doc.

[aucran]

It's all a bit vague isn't it ? I'm wondering how the doc limit will effect some large assemblies if each component is counted as a doc.

The way I read it, it will only spit out the tool paths with the same tool at a time. So if you have a 2D adaptipve followed by a 2D Contour with the same tool, then those will go in the same program, but if you need to follow it up with some drilling, then thats another program you have to load. TWO more programs if you want to spot drill them before hand.

This is a ridiculous change that is only meant to be annoying.

The lack of rapids I can live without, its not a huge deal for a tormach sized machine, and its an incentive for people with larger machines and faster rapids to buy the software.

Now if you want to tap a hole, its 3 programs to pull up, spot, drill, tap. If you have two sizes of tapped hole, then your looking at 5 programs.
Want to use your superfly? thats another program.

I have licensed copy of F360, but this is still a stupid change.

Those with routers and ER collet spindles probably won't feel as effected.

[kstrauss]

More importantly, is there any guarantee that the price will remain at "only" us$300/year? Or that more features won't be removed?

[aucran]

I could see them capping the lines of code at some point...

[jwatte]

FreeCad -- sure, but what's the CAM story there?

Also, the "export each tool as a separate program" seems so arbitrary to me, even though I don't have an ATC. I guess I could come up with a naming convention and a simple script to splice them together after export.
They claim that I can export multiple toolpaths that use the same tool as one file, but it's one file per tool.

And the motivations for limiting rapid moves are terrible. "You can only high feed at the cutting feed rate, but most small mills won't be impacted."
Yeah, uh ... cutting titanium, I move at a few inches per minute. This will easily double my cycle time.

[cyclestart]

FreeCad has the Path workbench for CAM. It's has a decent number of features but nothing close to Fusion.

[samstu]

At least there aren't ads in display window or video ads before exporting finished product..... Want to draw a circle, just watch this advertisement for a new truck....

I can't say I really blame them, I don't think 3d printing or even Tormach would be as successful without Fusion (mine came with a "powered by fusion360 magnet). Sort of the Windows OS of the maker world. Sure you can use a high end professional product at X thousand per seat or a Free product of limited potential with a big learning curve. I would wonder how many folks using an ATC are really selling less than $1000 per year. Personally, I think a better approach would be to place everything made with a free license freely available on a Fusion style thingiverse. If it's really a hobby, no need for privacy. If it was ever private on the cloud....

[kstrauss]

I don't sell anything and I don't have an ATC (I do have a PDB) but I certainly make personal amusement projects that require more than one tool. If I understand the announcement correctly I have to output the gcode for each tool into a separate file. Plus, I can't use my 4th axis. Plus, I can't do rapids. Plus, ...

[samstu]

In another forum, an astute member pointed out that solidworks student premium is available for free to members of the EAA (experimental aircraft association) which cost 40 a year or less to join. Maybe a whole better way to go than paying for fusion as a hobbiest. Limited to non-commercial and who knows what else.

[machinehop5]

we have been warned...thx fu360

Hell yes... https://www.freecadweb.org/

[tonyaimer]

Guys,

As a hobbyist I am equally concerned about where this might go. Autodesk are going to try and maximise their income stream and especially
for the hard times we are currently in. As far as FreeCAD is concerned I am prepared to accept present limitations witha view to wonderful things
coming in future. I am not interested in cloud computing per se and would not want software to be supplied like fusion 360 is.

I know that f360 might leave a lot of people in the lurch in the short term and there will be more left in the lurch later. Who says adesk will stop
here? They have purchased :instructables" and might that go the same way?

I hope that some clever software guys will go over and develop a 5D workbench that will be an add on to FreeCAD and get a bigger income from
community donations than they could get as a salary via "the suits".

Autodesk was never the same after John Walker was squeezed out. His web site is worth a look. Fourmilab .ch is for canton helvetica
not china!

The CAD world may never be the same after this latest announcement from Adesk.

Regards

Tony Aimer

Johannesburg
South Africa
tonyATaimer.co.za

[cyclestart]

STEP is a common import format for other CAD. What other CAD imports .F3d ? I don't know.
What imports best into FreeCad ? STEP
STEP disappears as an export format from Fusion soon.
Looks like I'll be busy.

[TurboStep]

CAD/CAM software is a tool just like a mill or lathe. In fact it's a very important part of the workflow. In the age of freeware I think many people believe software can be downloaded so it must be free, but a package like Fusion is complex and expensive to develop and maintain. We users have had it good for a number of years but I'm sure the free version has been exploited by many companies using it to make good money but they don't seem to be receiving much criticism here.

I started to use Fusion when Alibre conveniently "lost" their license server. The only way to ensure I could continue to use the product would have been to buy a new license. Today a comparable Alibre license would cost me around $1750. Maintenance for subsequent years costs a further $700 per year. That gives me only CAD and with fewer features than Fusion.
My last Sprutcam maintenance update cost me $376 back in 2016 (maybe that's changed since). Again, that's only for CAM.

I checked all "quality" alternatives but all were far too expensive. Fusion still comes out top whether free or $800 for 3 years for CAD and CAM. Now with PCB design included I also have the advantage of larger prints with more than 2 layers in the same package.

Someone on this forum once said that if we wanted a cheap hobby we should take up knitting. CNC Machining is not cheap an we shouldn't expect it to be. I'm always amazed how people would buy a fixture plate (which 99% don't need), or the servo upgrade without blinking an eye, but software has to be free. I don' thin anyone expects Tormach to supply free toolholders for hobby use only, so why should software be any different?

Having said that, I wonder if Tormach might be able to negotiate a Tormach specific version at a reduced price with at least support for tool changes? I'd still probably have to go for the full package but it might be interesting for a lot of other Tormach users.

Step

[kstrauss]

Step, I completely understand the costs of software development and maintenance -- I spent my working life doing development and I owned a software company for many years. My problem is the change in terms of use. It would be fine if one could continue to use all of the functions in the current free version. I could accept the situation if Autodesk were to offer a perpetual licence at a specified price. I could then evaluate the alternatives and make a rational decision. However, whether business or hobbyist, it is unacceptable to have invested hundreds (thousands?) of hours in training and designing widgets and then be given two weeks notice of drastic changes in their offering.

Fortunately, I have been putting off becoming proficient in Fusion so I am essentially unaffected.

[mountaindew]

CAD/CAM software is a tool just like a mill or lathe. In fact it's a very important part of the workflow. In the age of freeware I think many people believe software can be downloaded so it must be free, but a package like Fusion is complex and expensive to develop and maintain. We users have had it good for a number of years but I'm sure the free version has been exploited by many companies using it to make good money but they don't seem to be receiving much criticism here.

I started to use Fusion when Alibre conveniently "lost" their license server. The only way to ensure I could continue to use the product would have been to buy a new license. Today a comparable Alibre license would cost me around $1750. Maintenance for subsequent years costs a further $700 per year. That gives me only CAD and with fewer features than Fusion.
My last Sprutcam maintenance update cost me $376 back in 2016 (maybe that's changed since). Again, that's only for CAM.

I checked all "quality" alternatives but all were far too expensive. Fusion still comes out top whether free or $800 for 3 years for CAD and CAM. Now with PCB design included I also have the advantage of larger prints with more than 2 layers in the same package.

Someone on this forum once said that if we wanted a cheap hobby we should take up knitting. CNC Machining is not cheap an we shouldn't expect it to be. I'm always amazed how people would buy a fixture plate (which 99% don't need), or the servo upgrade without blinking an eye, but software has to be free. I don' thin anyone expects Tormach to supply free toolholders for hobby use only, so why should software be any different?

Having said that, I wonder if Tormach might be able to negotiate a Tormach specific version at a reduced price with at least support for tool changes? I'd still probably have to go for the full package but it might be interesting for a lot of other Tormach users.

Step

This about says it all.
Do some math and its not hard to figure out this is still a good deal.
Non cloud software and subscription base is also expensive. Easy to spend $1000.00 each or more for cad and cam. Total of $2000.00 just to get started.
It takes a 5 year window to get to a comparable cost. $2000.00 / 5 years =400.00 a year and that is when you isolate the software and never update it.
Cloud based Subscription would have been updated during this time and often have major improvements. Making that very attractive cost over time.
Also, In my opinion if you isolate the software you will get at best 8 years of use before O.S. changes make it obsolete anyway.
This is cheaper but your stuck there with no path forward for all the time spent learning and building widget libraries.
So If you own you still need to update and this costs on average $300-$500 per year and that alone cost more.
For me I dont want to strand or isolate years of experience and widget libraries.
Bottom line cad and cam are important tools and require investment imho, because these machines are boat anchors without them.
So either way its pay up sucker !


PS: Hard to find a free lunch these days.
Also imho a Tormach specific version would be a headache for all parties involved! "I have long term experience" lol

[kstrauss]

Mountaindew, your analysis assumes that the cost and capability of an annual Fusion subscription is unchanged for 5 years. Consider the impact of further capability restrictions and price increases. What if next year the hobby paid version no longer has 4th axis support? What if support for rapids requires a more expensive licence?

[soofle616]

Mountaindew, your analysis assumes that the cost and capability of an annual Fusion subscription is unchanged for 5 years. Consider the impact of further capability restrictions and price increases. What if next year the hobby paid version no longer has 4th axis support? What if support for rapids requires a more expensive licence?

No intention of starting an argument, you make a valid point regarding possible future price increases. However, that same risk applies to any package. Even the top level programs can have price increases or release new modules that take over features that used to be included in a lower level product. This leads to a good argument for perpetual licenses so you pay once and "own" it rather than having to pay a renewal for a given time frame but I would say the days of perpetual software licenses are over. Nothing is purchased and done anymore. If it's not a cloud solution that requires monthly or annual renewal, its a desktop app that still requires a license renewal every year or it stops working (mastercam).

[mountaindew]

No intention of starting an argument, you make a valid point regarding possible future price increases. However, that same risk applies to any package. Even the top level programs can have price increases or release new modules that take over features that used to be included in a lower level product. This leads to a good argument for perpetual licenses so you pay once and "own" it rather than having to pay a renewal for a given time frame but I would say the days of perpetual software licenses are over. Nothing is purchased and done anymore. If it's not a cloud solution that requires monthly or annual renewal, its a desktop app that still requires a license renewal every year or it stops working (mastercam).

Currently nothing I use stops working if I dont update each year. kstraus has a valid point with cloud software when you dont renew you have nothing but files. owned software you can always dedicate hardware and keep it working for many years after your maintenance laps. And still use and access the files. still my math says this is 2x the cost for a very long time.