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IndustryArena Forum > Machine Controllers Software and Solutions > G-Code Programing > Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video
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  1. #101
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    I did try turning on radius compensation before and after G18. I tried all sorts of random combinations and nothing changes (in regards to the XZ arc).
    ...mazak was very advance for the day back in the future (5axis tool comp) .... I think you should try using G41/G42 in G17 mode first to figure out your favor the program format needs to be.

    Program something with3 Bosses say 25mm dia...with a 12mm endmill at randum Points XY...with a rough and finish Tool 1 and tool 2....using diameter/radius comp...may help.

  2. #102
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by machinehop5 View Post
    ...mazak was very advance for the day back in the future (5axis tool comp) .... I think you should try using G41/G42 in G17 mode first to figure out your favor the program format needs to be.

    Program something with3 Bosses say 25mm dia...with a 12mm endmill at randum Points XY...with a rough and finish Tool 1 and tool 2....using diameter/radius comp...may help.
    I have tried G41/G42 and G43 in XY plane. Everything works perfectly. To my knowledge the machine behaves perfectly. It also behaves perfectly in the XZ and YZ plane for arcs, interpolation G41/G42 and G43, only if you try do a G02/G03 arc in XZ or YZ plane WITH tool length compensation does it go wrong.

  3. #103
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    As I have been telling you that is total Bs what F360 is doing, no machine would allow a G18 to work like you are trying to use, this operation would normally use a spiral in if you wanted to go in from the top if you don't want any marks on the part you can Arc off at the end of the part

    It looses it marbles because it can not do an operation like this, there are many machines that could not do what you are trying to make it do, especially older machines like what you have
    Just to clarify, F360 doesn't use it to arc on/off the part. It uses it to transition form vertical to horizontal movement outside the part. For example, it lowers the facing tool outside the part, arcs down to final cut depth (still outside the part) then faces across the part. I assume this is to avoid shard transitions in direction. There is no real need for the arc in this case and it could just be removed.

    Forgetting about F360, that was just how I discovered this issue exists in the first place, I still have the case where I want to machine a curved pocket and I don't know how else to do it. All the manuals I have from similar aged Mazaks to mine say that you can do an XZ arc and never say it cant be done with tool length compensation turned on. Other machines I have tried can do it. All the G code simulators can do it.

    I am confused why you believe the machine shouldn't be able to do this? Just because of its age or because of incorrect use of g code?

  4. #104
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    ...mactec makes a good point maybe with defusion360...post process
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails tool tip vs center.jpg  

  5. #105
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    Just to clarify, F360 doesn't use it to arc on/off the part. It uses it to transition form vertical to horizontal movement outside the part. For example, it lowers the facing tool outside the part, arcs down to final cut depth (still outside the part) then faces across the part. I assume this is to avoid shard transitions in direction. There is no real need for the arc in this case and it could just be removed.

    Forgetting about F360, that was just how I discovered this issue exists in the first place, I still have the case where I want to machine a curved pocket and I don't know how else to do it. All the manuals I have from similar aged Mazaks to mine say that you can do an XZ arc and never say it cant be done with tool length compensation turned on. Other machines I have tried can do it. All the G code simulators can do it.

    I am confused why you believe the machine shouldn't be able to do this? Just because of its age or because of incorrect use of g code?
    F360 is dumbest cam software I know of, that would do such a thing, it also serves no purpose to do that to face a part, just adds complication to the programing

    Pocket profiling is done with regular 3 axis machining, that type of machining has nothing to do with a G18 or G19 only a G17 is needed to do 3D or pocket profiling or contoured radiuses inside a pocket
    Mactec54

  6. #106
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    F360 is dumbest cam software I know of, that would do such a thing, it also serves no purpose to do that to face a part, just adds complication to the programing
    I'm not disagreeing with these points. I don't know of any other suitable free CAM packages though. I cant really justify buying one for the small amount I do. Although F360 just disabled auto tool changing but easy enough to add that back in in g code I guess.

    So, how would you go about making a perfectly curved pocket, machined from the top, like a slot for marbles to do a 180 turn in? I found this example in a pdf book, "Programming CNC Machines":

    O0007
    N10G90G20G17G80G40G49
    N15G92X10.0Y7.0Z0
    N20G90G00X1.3125Y.375S4585M03
    N25G43Z1.H01M08
    N30Z.2
    N35G01Z-.125F18.0
    N40G18G03X.6875Z-.125I-.3125 K0F12.0
    N45G01Z.2F18.0
    N50G00Y1.625
    N5G01Z-.125
    N60G02X1.3125Z-.125I.3125K0F12.0
    N65G01Z.2F12.0
    N70G00X1.625Y1.3125
    N75G01Z-.125
    N80G19G02Y.6875Z-.125J-.3125K0F12.0
    N85G01Z.2F18.0
    N90G00X.375
    N95G01Z-.125
    N100G03Y1.3125Z-.125J.3125K0F12.0
    N105G01Z.2
    N110G91G28Z0M09
    N115G28X0Y0M05
    N120M30

    On a side note, I have placed an order against my best judgement for the programming manual for my Mazak. Maybe it will shed some light on what the machine can and cant do. I suspect it will be a brief Jinglish overview like the other Mazak manuals I have found, but it least it will stop me wondering!

  7. #107
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    no machine would allow a G18 to work like you are trying to use, this operation would normally use a spiral in if you wanted to go in from the top if you don't want any marks on the part you can Arc off at the end of the part

    It looses it marbles because it can not do an operation like this, there are many machines that could not do what you are trying to make it do, especially older machines like what you have
    I would disagree with you on this point. I have used this function on a few machines and it has been working fine.

    On Sinumeric 840D manual says that plane cannot be changed when G41/G42 is active.
    Siemens manual has the following to say about plane change and axis movements.
    Attachment 450092

    I found following in a fanuc manual on tool length compensation when using different planes.
    Attachment 450090

  8. #108
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by McMaster View Post
    I would disagree with you on this point. I have used this function on a few machines and it has been working fine.
    You are not getting it what he was trying to do was ridiculous and serves no purpose it was not about what machines can do, his machine most likely can use a G18 as well, but for the right purpose and in the right way it should be used
    Mactec54

  9. #109
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    I'm not disagreeing with these points. I don't know of any other suitable free CAM packages though. I cant really justify buying one for the small amount I do. Although F360 just disabled auto tool changing but easy enough to add that back in in g code I guess.

    So, how would you go about making a perfectly curved pocket, machined from the top, like a slot for marbles to do a 180 turn in? I found this example in a pdf book, "Programming CNC Machines":

    O0007
    N10G90G20G17G80G40G49
    N15G92X10.0Y7.0Z0
    N20G90G00X1.3125Y.375S4585M03
    N25G43Z1.H01M08
    N30Z.2
    N35G01Z-.125F18.0
    N40G18G03X.6875Z-.125I-.3125 K0F12.0
    N45G01Z.2F18.0
    N50G00Y1.625
    N5G01Z-.125
    N60G02X1.3125Z-.125I.3125K0F12.0
    N65G01Z.2F12.0
    N70G00X1.625Y1.3125
    N75G01Z-.125
    N80G19G02Y.6875Z-.125J-.3125K0F12.0
    N85G01Z.2F18.0
    N90G00X.375
    N95G01Z-.125
    N100G03Y1.3125Z-.125J.3125K0F12.0
    N105G01Z.2
    N110G91G28Z0M09
    N115G28X0Y0M05
    N120M30

    On a side note, I have placed an order against my best judgement for the programming manual for my Mazak. Maybe it will shed some light on what the machine can and cant do. I suspect it will be a brief Jinglish overview like the other Mazak manuals I have found, but it least it will stop me wondering!
    Quite a simple radius profile with a Ballnose cutter, when you make these you also want to remove a big part of the radius in the bottom to have less friction for the balls to run

    You do need good cam software to do any kind of profile surfacing though, I'm not sure that F360 is up to the task without paying for the industrial version that should have all the features you need, I don't know if these features have been limited, there are some low cost cam programs that can do this just get a demo and try different programs until you find what you need

    That's a badly written program you have posted I know you did not do it, but know what you are looking at learn all the basic G-codes and how they should be used in a program
    Mactec54

  10. #110
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You are not getting it what he was trying to do was ridiculous and serves no purpose it was not about what machines can do, his machine most likely can use a G18 as well, but for the right purpose and in the right way it should be used
    Sorry, I don't mean to sound rude, but I think you are not getting it. The entire point of this post is that my machine cant do a G18 arc when tool length compensation is turned on. Instead it freaks out. It does not matter what I am using it for, it wont do it! I am just making it move in free air and it wont do it!

  11. #111
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    Sorry, I don't mean to sound rude, but I think you are not getting it. The entire point of this post is that my machine cant do a G18 arc when tool length compensation is turned on. Instead it freaks out. It does not matter what I am using it for, it wont do it! I am just making it move in free air and it wont do it!
    There is probably a good reason for it not to work, so why are you using tool length comp, or are you confused between tool offset, and tool comp, your control most likely as I said before ,can not do what you are trying to do, I suggest you learn how to do basic programming before you do damage to your machine, moves like what was in the videos will damage your machine
    Mactec54

  12. #112
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    There is probably a good reason for it not to work, so why are you using tool length comp, or are you confused between tool offset, and tool comp, your control most likely as I said before ,can not do what you are trying to do, I suggest you learn how to do basic programming before you do damage to your machine, moves like what was in the videos will damage your machine
    I would like to think I understand basic programming well enough, particularly on the XY plane and typical tool pathing. I am certainly not a master but not completely ignorant. However I want to use this machine beyond simple programming and also be confident that it can do simple operations. I didn't program the big bang in the video, the machine did that on its own free will. I just programmed a basic arc.

    It is seeming more and more like the machine just cannot do that arc when tool length compensation is turned on, either by design or due to a bug. Everything else it cannot do it says "error", it doesn't just go off and have a melt down! I do not let it do that bang ever except for that video, I always stop it first. I don't want something getting broken as it may be the end of it!

    What I have learnt so far:
    - All the manuals for every machine I have read say what I want to do is possible.
    - All the g code simulators I have tried say the same.
    - My router will do this fine with tool length compensation turned on (Mach 3)
    - Other experienced machinists I know say it should do it.
    - Some machines allow you to select between tool length compensation on Z axis only or any axis. My machine seems to have no parameter to change this.
    - This suggests there is nothing wrong with the g code I have been using

    What I haven't done
    - Read the programming manual for my machine as I don't have it yet (few more weeks away).
    - Had someone else actually run the code on another, preferably older Mazak machine

  13. #113
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    I would like to think I understand basic programming well enough, particularly on the XY plane and typical tool pathing. I am certainly not a master but not completely ignorant. However I want to use this machine beyond simple programming and also be confident that it can do simple operations. I didn't program the big bang in the video, the machine did that on its own free will. I just programmed a basic arc.

    It is seeming more and more like the machine just cannot do that arc when tool length compensation is turned on, either by design or due to a bug. Everything else it cannot do it says "error", it doesn't just go off and have a melt down! I do not let it do that bang ever except for that video, I always stop it first. I don't want something getting broken as it may be the end of it!

    What I have learnt so far:
    - All the manuals for every machine I have read say what I want to do is possible.
    - All the g code simulators I have tried say the same.
    - My router will do this fine with tool length compensation turned on (Mach 3)
    - Other experienced machinists I know say it should do it.
    - Some machines allow you to select between tool length compensation on Z axis only or any axis. My machine seems to have no parameter to change this.
    - This suggests there is nothing wrong with the g code I have been using

    What I haven't done
    - Read the programming manual for my machine as I don't have it yet (few more weeks away).
    - Had someone else actually run the code on another, preferably older Mazak machine
    Cutter comp is not something you even need to use, so I'm not sure why you need it in your program, and keep trying to run it, if it has a problem with it, this could also just be how you have the cutter comp formatted for your control, without using cutter comp, you run the part measure it, if it needs another pass you can then adjust the Z axes no cutter comp needed this is basic programing then you have it set for the next part as well

    Mach3 will run anything you throw at it, this was by design for non programmer's, so don't go by what Mach3 will run that means very little

    Using cutter comp for Z axis is almost never used, as this is just a simple Z axis tool length adjustment that you can do while it is running in most controls

    You need to rethink your need for Z axis cutter comp and for what purpose you need it for, as it is not needed for the Z axis adjustments
    Mactec54

  14. #114
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    I would like to think I understand basic programming well enough, particularly on the XY plane and typical tool pathing. I am certainly not a master but not completely ignorant. However I want to use this machine beyond simple programming and also be confident that it can do simple operations. I didn't program the big bang in the video, the machine did that on its own free will. I just programmed a basic arc.

    It is seeming more and more like the machine just cannot do that arc when tool length compensation is turned on, either by design or due to a bug. Everything else it cannot do it says "error", it doesn't just go off and have a melt down! I do not let it do that bang ever except for that video, I always stop it first. I don't want something getting broken as it may be the end of it!

    What I have learnt so far:
    - All the manuals for every machine I have read say what I want to do is possible.
    - All the g code simulators I have tried say the same.
    - My router will do this fine with tool length compensation turned on (Mach 3)
    - Other experienced machinists I know say it should do it.
    - Some machines allow you to select between tool length compensation on Z axis only or any axis. My machine seems to have no parameter to change this.
    - This suggests there is nothing wrong with the g code I have been using

    What I haven't done
    - Read the programming manual for my machine as I don't have it yet (few more weeks away).
    - Had someone else actually run the code on another, preferably older Mazak machine
    Tool length compensation is what ever you set it to ( Tool Offset ) which you can adjust at any time, just as you would for tool wear on diameter when using X and Y Cutter comp

    I want to make it clear so you stop wasting your time trying to get cutter comp to work in the Z axis, Cutter comp does not work on a Z axis it only works in X or Y axis so if you apply cutter comp when you are using a G18 it can only be applied to the X axis so has to be in the right place in the program for it to work, if anyone is telling you any different then they are just Bs'ing you Here is a good presentation of how to use cutter comp Note that Z axis can not be used to turn on or off cutter comp

    https://www.cnc.com/g40-g41-g42-cutt...sation-gcodes/

    You have to use a G141 for 3D cutter comp and I doubt that your control can use a G141
    Mactec54

  15. #115
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Tool length compensation is what ever you set it to ( Tool Offset ) which you can adjust at any time, just as you would for tool wear on diameter when using X and Y Cutter comp

    I want to make it clear so you stop wasting your time trying to get cutter comp to work in the Z axis, Cutter comp does not work on a Z axis it only works in X or Y axis so if you apply cutter comp when you are using a G18 it can only be applied to the X axis so has to be in the right place in the program for it to work, if anyone is telling you any different then they are just Bs'ing you Here is a good presentation of how to use cutter comp Note that Z axis can not be used to turn on or off cutter comp

    https://www.cnc.com/g40-g41-g42-cutt...sation-gcodes/

    You have to use a G141 for 3D cutter comp and I doubt that your control can use a G141
    I haven't wasted any time trying to get cutter diameter compensation working on G18 plane. I know it is applied on the X axis. I have tested it for interest and it seems to work as expected.

    But I have wasted a ton of time trying to get length compensation working! The length compensation is correctly applied to all movements including the G2/3 arcs end point. The problem is that it is not applied to the actual Z axis arc center point (K) used for the arc. So the arc Z is centered around where it would have been with no length compensation, but the end point is where it should be with length compensation. This makes an impossible arc.

    So tool length compensation is half working for arcs!

    From what I have seen, most machines allow selecting by parameter always having tool length compensation in Z or relative to the selected plane (tool length compensation in Y axis for G18). My machine definitely is applying the compensation in Z to the end point so I assume it is in that mode or just cant do it!

    I am still hoping the manual will provide a definitive answer as I like closure on these kinds of things!

  16. #116
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by ashes-man View Post
    I haven't wasted any time trying to get cutter diameter compensation working on G18 plane. I know it is applied on the X axis. I have tested it for interest and it seems to work as expected.

    But I have wasted a ton of time trying to get length compensation working! The length compensation is correctly applied to all movements including the G2/3 arcs end point. The problem is that it is not applied to the actual Z axis arc center point (K) used for the arc. So the arc Z is centered around where it would have been with no length compensation, but the end point is where it should be with length compensation. This makes an impossible arc.

    So tool length compensation is half working for arcs!

    From what I have seen, most machines allow selecting by parameter always having tool length compensation in Z or relative to the selected plane (tool length compensation in Y axis for G18). My machine definitely is applying the compensation in Z to the end point so I assume it is in that mode or just cant do it!

    I am still hoping the manual will provide a definitive answer as I like closure on these kinds of things!
    I think you are confused as to what and how tool comp works, on a 3 axis machine like yours only the X an Y axis can use tool comp

    You machine does not have Tool length compensation in the Z axis, it only has tool offset and a wear adjustment for the Z axis

    Correct comp can only work for the X axis when using a G18 the Z axis is easy to adjust with the tool offset and again there is no comp that will work for the Z axis when using a G18, you keep trying but there is no such thing it does not matter what control you have, there is no auto tool comp for the Z axis, unless you have a control that can do 3D cutter comp which is what you are trying to do, and your control does not have this, most normal 3 /4 axis machines do not have cutter comp for the Z axis either, look up TCPC which a lot of newer controls have to do multi axis tool comp it can be done also on some older controls by using a G41.2 or a G42.2 and an activation code but only on some controls have this feature to be able to do tool comp in the Z axis
    Mactec54

  17. #117
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Mactec..... he is NOT wanting a solution to cutter comp (G41/G42)

    He wants a working sample code for taking up tool length compensation ( what we understand as G43 H? ) for a Mazak.

    Info I have seen is that the H and D address is not used ie G43 by itself( ie G43 Z50. ) but another sample uses code similar to a Fanuc

  18. #118
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    Quote Originally Posted by Superman View Post
    Mactec..... he is NOT wanting a solution to cutter comp (G41/G42)

    He wants a working sample code for taking up tool length compensation ( what we understand as G43 H? ) for a Mazak.

    Info I have seen is that the H and D address is not used ie G43 by itself( ie G43 Z50. ) but another sample uses code similar to a Fanuc
    He sorted that out long ago as to what works and what does not trying to apply cutter comp in the Z axis move is not going to happen
    Mactec54

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    He sorted that out long ago as to what works and what does not trying to apply cutter comp in the Z axis move is not going to happen
    No he hasn't.... read his posts again

  20. #120
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    Re: Why does this program make the machine crash? - with video

    ...waiting for Manual before making the next chess move. imo

    great thread

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