[SRT Mike]

I know everyone has their favorites, and I am trying to choose between these ones. Right now we use MasterCAM. We dont own it, but the guy who owns the machine shop next door lets us bring over part files and make G-code. We hand-write a lot of the g-code, and use CAM to output some of the more difficult or repetitive toolpaths.

Years back we were using Inventor for CAD. I had previous experience with Pro/E but I always found it to be difficult (non-intuitive) to use. One of the guys who does most of the CAD work uses Rhino, which I never was thrilled with. After playing with SolidWorks a bit, I really like it and I have found it lets me very quickly design what I need. I also like that it has a renderer and that there are available CAM packages for it that integrate with the program.

So we're trying to make a decision on what CAM program to buy. We got an online demo of OneCNC but without actually being able to use the software myself, I'd never buy it - because its always easy when a pro is showing you how to do something. Also, during the demo the guy had trouble coming up with a toolpath to cut one of our major parts - his solution worked sort-of, but it was a roundabout solution and the toolpath would have not been exactly right and it seemed we found a limitation of the software. But overall OneCNC looks great.

But now that I have tried solidworks, we're thinking of buying that, and that raises the question of CAMWorks and SolidCam. CAMWorks wants me to talk to a reseller before they even let me demo it - I have no desire to have some salesman "stopping by" to try to sell me on something, I just want to try the damn software. I am downloading a demo of SolidCAM and I will try that this coming week.

Any comments on whether SolidCAM is better than CAMWorks? How do they compare to OneCNC?

What we do is 3-D machining on a VMC as well as 4-axis (twin turret) turning on a lathe with live tooling. I imagine at some point we may get into 5-axis stuff, so although I dont wanna pay for it, I would like the software to have the capaibility to do it (or be upgraded to do it). I dont care about drawing parts in the CAM package at all, I only want it to be CAM.

So far it looks like SolidCAM and OneCNC are the leaders - barring any compelling evidence to look more closely at CAMWorks or VisualMill. I did look into MasterCAM X2, but the price is just ridiculous, especially when you consider what a shoddy piece of software MasterCAM 9 is (and when I got a demo of X, it looks like they just grafted on a windows interface to the underlying crap). We are not happy with the intelligence/performance of MCam when it comes to toolpaths and we thank our lucky stars that we never bought it . Visual Mill looks OK, I got some demo at EastTech but it seemed to crash alot and we were fighting it to get the toolpaths we really wanted - and again like MC it came up with some stupid toolpaths that were very inefficient, so unless there is major evidence to the contrary, I *think* we are "all set" with MCam X and VisualMill.

Long post - so... any comments?

[HuFlungDung]

Mike,
You should be able to get a demo version of OneCNC now, to play with it a bit on your own. Watching a professional work on your difficult part is a good way to evaluate what the software is capable of (perhaps at its best), but tinkering around with it yourself is bound to be better at getting your own feel for it.

I've not had parts presented yet that I could not do in OneCNC in 3 or 4 axis. Some would question whether the toolpaths are at 'maximum efficiency', so for long runs of simple parts where seconds count, it may be best to look intently at the exact details of the toolpath, and whether you will be happy accepting the code that OneCNC puts out.

I have fixed plenty of drawings in OneCNC that come from other CAD programs, so it is essential, IMO, to be able to do some CAD work within the CADCAM. It saves a lot of aggravation down the road. OneCNC is good modelling software for general parts. Modelling is an art, and I have seen some models made in OneCNC that I am astounded at. But, time and experience will permit one to work miracles

Because cost is one issue that you mentioned, I believe OneCNC is one best value, the 'universal wrench' that you want in your back pocket.

It will not readily help you with live 4th axis lathe. You'd have to switch back and forth between the mill and lathe software most likely for this type of project. Not having any direct experience with that, I don't know how well that works. However, I assume that most 4th axis lathe stuff is relatively simple. If it were to get more complex, then it would become more like 4th axis mill, which OneCNC is fully capable of handling in the pricier packages.

[dansutula]

Mike,
I've been using VisualMill for about 6 years now (since Version 1.0) and I can honestly say that I enjoy usinging it. I find it to be extremely efficient. My prior experience was with CAMAX CAMAND for about 6 years. CAMAX was suppose to be one of the best CAM softwares on the market, and I think that VisualMill 5.0 is probably twice as fast and 3x user friendly, for 3-axis 3D milling. I do a lot of complex prototypes and VisualMill works very well for my applications. The sofware rarely crashes (perhaps twice a year). I've not used OneCNC but from what I read, the main advantage is for folks who only have ONE software for both CAD and CAM. If you have SolidWorks, then perhaps you ought to be comparing VisualMill to ONE-HalfCNC. And with respect to buying soon, you might want to wait a few weeks as VisualMill 6.0 is over-due to be released any day now. I've not seen it, but based on MecSoft's track record, I expect that it will be very good if not great.
Good Luck to you!

[SRT Mike]

Well I think SolidCAM is out. I know how machining works and I know how to use some CAM systems, and SolidCAM is just frustrating in the way it wants me to work. Many times I feel like it's putting the cart before the horse in how it wants me to set up the work. In other cases it seems that it is babying me and trying to insulate me from things I WANT to have control over. Not to mention it does stupid things like give me errors if more than one part is open. And part names can only be 8 characters long? What? Did the software developers not get over that old DOS limitation yet? Geez, its only been - what, 15 years since Windows got mainstream!

As for VisualMill, I dont remember what version we were using, but I think it was three or four. it was frustrating and it seemed to be one of those cases where it sort of hid the advanced features in favor of simplicity for new users, perhaps, but to try to get it to do the things you want, you were fighting the software.

I am very open to re-trying it because next to OneCNC, I found the VisualMill interface to be VERY good. Do they offer a demo that I can download and use without going through some annoying sales process? And anyone know the price of it?

Thanks guys!


EDIT:

RE: VisualMill - I didnt realize VisualMill and VisualTurn were seperate packages. Not a huge biggie, but given Mill is at 5.0 and turn is at 1.0, does that mean MecSoft isn't really that "into" turning? Or was the turn product released much later? I'm DLing the demo of turn right now, so we'll see... the getting started guide looks pretty good, but I guess it comes down to price. If I recall, OneCNC was around $3,500 (dont remember if that was with lathe or not), but if V-Mill is the same or more I think it would put it out of the running. I'd prefer to go with ONE vendor and stay with them, rather than jumping back and forth or switching because another vendor leapfrogged the one I am with in functonality/support/ability, etc. Also, VisualTurn does not support 4-axis, live tooling and the toolpaths/type it supports for turning seem extremely limited. We'll see

[SRT Mike]

Well, VisualTurn is out. What junk software THAT is! Whew! If they sell it for more than $20, they are ripping folks off!

I install, seems OK. I notice that it lets me open multiple part files, but has no "WINDOW" menu tab that would normally have a "close" menu item, but nope! No "window" tab at all! It got worse when I started importing files. How to get from SolidWorks to VisualTurn? Tried WRL, Step, Iges and STL - none worked. IGES was my best bet, but when imported, VisualTurn would not recognize any of the part geometry and kept telling me I needed to select a valid surface before making a toolpath. Oh, and it crashed twice on me in 20 minutes! (first when I tried to change "files of type" to STP, then when I tried to define the stock). Oh, and it won't recognize 4-letter file extensions? Even if I say "show all files", my "part.step" file was not seen until I manually changed the extention from .STEP to .STP.

Sorry MecSoft, that program is a turd and I wouldn't pay you anything for it! It is ridden with rookie programming mistakes and is way WAY lacking in functionality. Nothing beyond 2-axis support, and very basic tool support - and only about 6 kinds of machining operations? Please. This is 2007, not 1994.

Unfortunately OneCNC does not appear to have a demo version of Lathe on their site - I'll call them and see what they can do. I wont buy anything without using it myself, so I guess if they can't help me we'll just stick with doing G-code by hand.

[Geof]

.... so I guess if they can't help me we'll just stick with doing G-code by hand.

WHAT!!!!! Edster will be horrified .

[fpworks]

I'm a little bothered that you're talking about cost as an issue, because I did the same a couple years ago. May I assume that this software is for your full time business? Comparable products are PRICED comparably, otherwise they wouldn't be in business. Comparing current version of OneCNC to current version of Mastercam is like apples to oranges...they are not priced comparably.

Please don't make the same mistake we did and use price as a means to select the CAM software for your business. The software AND the time you'll spend learning and getting more proficient with the new software is an investment!!!

As you know, you'll spend MANY hours gaining proficiency in whichever system you choose. If you choose a cheaper and less capable product now, with the intention of switching later, all lot of time and money will be lost.

We made this mistake by purchasing OneCNC. Don't get me wrong...I think it is great for hobby use or part time business use, but it is simply nowhere close to what you get from Mastercam, Surfcam, Delcam, Esprit, etc, etc.

OneCNC's marketing scheme targets Mastercam as a competitor, but don't let that mislead you to believe that it is even remotely as good as the current version of Mastercam or like priced competitors.

I'm not trying to beat on OneCNC...it is priced fair for it's capability. Having said that, it is still an entry level CAM system. It has some really serious shortcomings (mostly in regards to toolpath associativity) that make it TREMENDOUSLY less productive than midrange CAM software such as Mastercam, Surfcam, Edgecam, etc. OneCNC is really easy to learn, so it seems attractive initially, but the shortcomings will start to eat at you as you become more proficient, even if you've used something like Mastercam V9.

We switched from OneCNC to Mastercam X2...now we're on Mastercam X2 MR1 SP1. (that makes me laugh) Nothing is perfect, but they keep refining and fixing as we go. Haven't heard too many good things about Mastercam's turning software.

There are lots of options out there to lease the software...may be worth checking out if you don't want to throw down a lot of dollars up front. If you take this route, your business will be able to immediately start capitalizing on the capabilities of the higher end software, AND you'll be investing your time in a CAM system that will make you even more productive in the future.

[SRT Mike]

fpworks,

Thanks for your reply. It would be for our business, however CNC machining is only a small part of our business. I do not buy the line "with XYZ software, you will make more money!". We do not spent a ton of time using CAM software to generate G-Code, so for the price of Mastercam, it is simply not worth it to us. I do not believe there is anything Mastercam can do that OneCNC or others cannot do. The training side of things, well, me and my biz partner spent a long time writing software and we've been around the machines for years, so training is not a factor - we wouldn't go and get trained anyway . For me, the software being logically laid out and following normal Windows standards is important. The version of MasterCAM 9.1 we use is not good in this regard. We constantly find ourselves fighting the software to get it to do what we want, and in many instances it is simply impossible to make Mastercam do what it should be doing - so you end up editing the g-code. I dont mean it can't produce g-code that runs, but rather you will watch the VMC running the code and see so many places where it could be much more efficient. Some of these things we can tweak in MCAM to make them right, but others are often just not able to be changed, and end up being done by hand in the g-code. Most of our parts are pretty complex - all require 3-d machining, no 2.5 axis stuff here! And the lathe work is similarly complex (4-axis with live tool). I know Mastercam is used by a lot of folks to do great things, but I simply do not believe its worth the money or that it is worth the premium over OneCNC.

I dont mean to flame you in any way, if you are happy with it, I am happy for you! I have not used X2 but when we did a demo of X, I told the guy it looked like they just slapped a windows GUI over 9.1 and he sort of agreed that in most respects it was the same. I have heard X is a world different, maybe it is but I just havent tried it.

I would be very curious to hear from you some things that cannot be done in OneCNC that can be done in Mastercam? And what did you do with that copy of OneCNC? Looking to unload it?

[tobyaxis]

Well between the softwares your looking at I would say in this specific order, Mastercam, OneCNC SolidCAM, CamWorks, and Visual Mill Last.

Mastercam is probably your best choice but it is expensive. OneCNC is the other, but besides HuFlungDung, there isn't much Tech Support LOL.

Sorry I didn't write much, it was a long day.

Cheers!!!!

[fpworks]

Okay, I can understand your budget limitations now that you mention that CNC machining/programming is not a large part of your normal business operations. On the other hand, programming and machining occupies most of the time of our business. I agree...good CAM software will not directly MAKE more money, but it will reduce the time required to program a part or series of parts without errors. Money is made where time is saved and more parts are produced.

I'm not necessarily preaching for Mastercam, nor am I preaching against OneCNC...I am just saying they are not in the same league. You're not going to get Mastercam X2's level of functionality at the price of any product priced in OneCNC's price range. The level of functionality provided by OneCNC may be quite sufficient for you...just don't expect to get more than what you pay for.

Before we started our own business, I used Pro/NC and Esprit. OneCNC seemed like a good choice, and I liked it at first, but when time became more critical and the more I used OneCNC, the more frustrated I became with it's limitations. Making the transition to Mastercam was very time consuming at an a bad time...nevermind the cost. I am still kicking myself for skimping with a cheaper CAM system. Looking back, we left a lot of money on the table.

We sold our copy of OneCNC to a gentleman on one of the forums here who was using the software for a hobby. Last I heard, he was very happy with the software.

OneCNC's fundamental limitation is based on the following: After you have selected a geometry to apply a toolpath in OneCNC, you cannot reselect the geometry. (unless you use the SMT toolpath selection, then you have very limited control of the toolpath) Have OneCNC demonstrate the following, with 2D and 3D geometry, with SMT and non-SMT toolpaths:

1. Fully program your part created with Solidworks. Then, go back to SW, slightly change the model, and try to bring the changed model back into OneCNC while retaining all your programmed operations. (you can't...all that programming is wasted)

2. Fully program a part created with Solidworks. Now, create a similar part, that should be able to use the same machining technique. IMO, it is logical to "save as," then swap out the model, and reselect the geometry. (OneCNC can't do it, must start with a blank file)

3. Start with a complex part with lots of similar features, that all could use the same machining strategy. It would make sense to get one feature programed just the way you want, then copy this operation, and simply reselect the geometry for all remaining features. (only possible with SMT generated toolpaths, but like I said earlier, these are less flexible)

I'm not even getting into toolpath trimming, thread milling, transform operations, high speed toolpaths, adaptive feedrates (highfeed), post flexibility, 5 axis support, simulation *.stl output.

It sounds like your parts may be fairly complex...ours are fairly complex [mostly] 2.5D that take anywhere from 4-12 hours to program. We design, prototype, and produce our own parts...changes happen, and I can't afford to start over from scratch whenever we make a similar part or make changes. Even worse, we found ourselves avoiding changes because it takes too long to reprogram. Not good for the product! Another instance, we had a customer call and make one change to a high level parent contour in a Pro/E designed part fifteen minutes before we were supposed to start production. Reprogramming took 12 hours. In Mastercam, it would have taken 15-20 minutes.

Like I said, I'm not trying to discourage one over the other, and I'm not trying to provoke a OneCNC vs "AnyOtherCAM" war. I just want you to know what you're leaving on the table. I feel like I fell into a little trap because of OneCNC's overzealous marketing (they do a great job). The extra functionality simply costs more, and it is worth it to us, but not everybody. If you want to discuss, let me know and I'll PM you my phone number.

Justin

[HuFlungDung]

Justin's remarks about OneCNC Mill are true enough at this time. I'm not here to pull the wool over on anyone. We do not have the option of reselecting geometry to apply to an existing machining process at this time. I've heard rumors that this is going to be addressed in a later version, and I am eager to see how it will work. Of course, there are many details to be attended to, to make sure this all works properly, there are no hasty additions made to OneCNC.

As for lathe software, using a live axis, I really doubt that you would be happy using OneCNC, unless it were just an occasional job. Hand editing or cutting and pasting would be required to get milling processes into a lathe program. There is no way to simultaneously post lathe and mill processes together, because lathe processes can only be posted from OneCNC lathe, and milling processes can only be posted from OneCNC mill.

As for general recommendation of lathe software for 2 axis lathe, I don't have too many reservations about OneCNC lathe, it does what needs doing. You can configure and orient insert shapes to suit your toolholders, and it will figure out where the tool can fit and where it cannot. That's probably the most important function required of lathe software, is interference checking.

As for total machine simulation, you can model the chuck, the toolholders and I suppose a turret if you like, and do a visual check for machine interference in the toolpath preview. I've never gone that far, as I don't feel it adds any benefit to my daily work. I use the simpler '2d pixel simulation' to do a quick check.

On a machine with live tooling, you'd probably want to do the full blown sort of modelled machine check, so a prospective buyer of OneCNC should talk to tech support about this sort of toolpath previewing. There would, as far as I know, not be any way to show motion of the live axis, only the standard toolholder performing standard turning type motions can be viewed. But, I suppose if you were to model an entire live tool as a toolholder, it would be possible to call it into toolpath preview. But, that would not help you to call real cross drilling/milling functionality without using a lot of imagination.

As for tech support, I'm not prime tech support, there is a real tech support in several offices around the globe. And there is the support forum run on OneCNC's own website. There is plenty of help to be found. I'm just another cadcam gearhead

[tobyaxis]

I'm just another cadcam gearhead

I agree and confess to the same addictions. CAD/CAM is FUN!!!!

[Geof]

....Mastercam is probably your best choice but it is expensive....

What is expensive?

[tobyaxis]

What is expensive?

The price of Mastercam. It is great Software though.

[Geof]

The price of Mastercam. It is great Software though.

I meant what is the price? What do you consider expensive? $5,000, $10,000, $15,000 or is it more?

[tobyaxis]

I meant what is the price? What do you consider expensive? $5,000, $10,000, $15,000 or is it more?

It depends on which Level of Machining and the Plug-In Modules you purchase.

I'll PM you with the Details because MC doesn't like their prices Posted in an open Forum LOL.

[Cory]

We use CAMWorks and MasterCAM.

I like both for certain things.

I find CAMWorks much easier for setting up the actual part--you just click the corner you want as your zero. No clunky translating the part to mate the edge with the origin, like in MasterCAM.

CAMWork's auto feature recognition isn't all that great. It works on very simple 2d parts, and even then it can be sketchy. It also depends on the process you took to draw it.

CAMWorks also has a mind of it's own when it comes to choosing the best tool, and creating toolpaths. It often chooses to do things in a manner that takes way more time than necessary.

It is very nice to just select the feature you want to machine, instead of selecting chains like in MasterCAM.

Overall, I'd say MasterCAM is much more powerful, but if you have Solidworks, the integration between the two makes it a good option.

[CJH]

FPworks,

I noticed that you mention using before starting your own business you were using ProE/NC and Esprit. In our office currently use Esprit to run our mill. Did you find Esprit to be not a good choice for your new business? If so why? We've been using it for a few years now and have had success in getting our jobs run. Now by success I'm not saying we had flawless programming on every job. Quite the contrary there has been a lot of hair pulling and beating off heads on desks wondering why we can't get something to work the way we need it to. But we get the job done although it takes lomnger than we expect. I know without a shadow of a doubt that you'll get what ya pay for in performance. But is Mastercam really that much better in an all round CAM software? I've posted other questions in regards to CNC routers, since we are moving in that direction as well, and hope to procure the funding to buy one shortly. The reason I mention this is that our cabinet shop, where the router will be mainly used, is considering Mastercam since it will come as one of the bundled software options for the machine.

CJH

[fpworks]

CJH,
To be honest, EVERYTHING was a cost consideration when starting the business, so we weren't considering any of the more pricey CAM software. Big mistake. Should have bit the bullet and leased the software.

The version of Esprit that I used was quite old...can't remember the last version I used, but it was around the same age as Mastercam 8. Both systems have come quite a long ways since then, so I can't comment of how the current versions compare.

When we decided to invest in some better CAM software, the research I did on all the like-priced systems showed that they are all very similar in functionality. Of course, the company that currently had the "latest release" offered slightly more features, but it also seemed that they had slightly more bugs. Constant game of leap frog.

I think we would be happy with any of the like-priced systems. Our final decision to go with Mastercam was finally based on Mastercam's market share. You simply don't get to have the highest market share without being consistently good on a year to year basis. We are in this for the long haul and wanted a CAM software company that would last with us.

Justin

[tobyaxis]

I think we would be happy with any of the like-priced systems. Our final decision to go with Mastercam was finally based on Mastercam's market share. You simply don't get to have the highest market share without being consistently good on a year to year basis. We are in this for the long haul and wanted a CAM software company that would last with us.
Justin

You have made a very good choice in CAM Software.