[Nik99]

Hi, I am up to buying a small CNC mill. I will be using the machine mainly for prototyping and maybe small production in the near future. I've been looking into these two machines:

Tormach 1100MX vs SYIL X7 2020:

box way - linear rails
cast iron frame - mineral casting (epoxy granite)
Spindle: 2 HP BT30 10.000rpm - 4/7,5 HP BT30 10/12.000 rpm
Controller: PathPilot - Siemens 808D/A
servo motors - servo motors
Travels 457/279/413 - 400/300/380

Both have rigid tapping and ATC. I come from Bulgaria so the shipping and toll costs will be comparable. Pricewise they are both around 26-28.000 USD, which is the maximum I can afford at the moment. Size is not a problem.
I really like the fact that there is so much information about Tormach. Their community is massive and it seems like most of their customers are more than happy with their machines. SIYL on the other hand is relatively unknown company, I could barely find any reviews about their machines. They are a chinese company but seem to import many of their parts from Europe (Schneeberger mineral casted frame, THK linear bearings, Siemens spindle and controller..). And of course the mineral casting frame which you mainly find on a lot more expensive machines. Combined with linear rails the machine is supposed to be very accurate. On paper they have a lot more value for money but unfortunately there are not many people who can confirm it.

I would be grateful if you can advise me which one should I choose.

[Kenny Duval]

The Syil is a better machine for the money. It'll run circles around the Tormach. I own one so I may be a little biased however. I own a 2018 cast iron base model. The new mineral based model is an even better machine. You should contact them for pricing as I believe it is going to come in a little higher in the price range than the Tormach based on just adding the Siemens control.

[Nik99]

What do you think about the machine. Have you had any problems with it, customer support and etc? What kind of tolerances are you holding on it?

The Syil is a better machine for the money. It'll run circles around the Tormach. I own one so I may be a little biased however. I own a 2018 cast iron base model. The new mineral based model is an even better machine. You should contact them for pricing as I believe it is going to come in a little higher in the price range than the Tormach based on just adding the Siemens control.

[Kenny Duval]

My machine has been great. I find the LNC M5800 controller to be pretty straight forward to use. It rapids faster than I am comfortable with so I usually run it at 50% rapids or less. I don't run large enough batches of parts to track it's repeatability. My parts are always within the tolerances I try to hit. I usually try to work within a .001 in or .02 mm. I rarely miss and if I do it is becasue I wasn't paying attention. It is a better machine than I am a hobby machinist.

About the only issue I have had with the machine was the automatic oiler was mounted a bit too high and it was siphoning out into the coolant tank. Other than that it has been problem free at least for other than the ones the operator creates.

Support for me has been good when I needed it. I have always gotten a response from an engineer when needed. I must admit though that hasn't been needed much. The facebook group is pretty solid and there is plenty of info available there. I haven't had any need for parts replacement at this time so I can't offer an educated opinion on that one.

[dazp1976]

All three machines have their dissapointments.

Haas. Price & spindle rpm.
Syil. Travels.
Tormach. Spindle power.

I'd have the tormach but it really should have the 5.5kw motor from the syil on it.
I can't beleive the MX has a spindle that low (1.48kw I beleive)!!!.

I mean, you can tell how badly underpowered the Tormach is by the fact the whole thing runs off a 20A breaker on single phase.

[ihavenofish]

All three machines have their dissapointments.

Haas. Price & spindle rpm.
Syil. Travels.
Tormach. Spindle power.

I'd have the tormach but it really should have the 5.5kw motor from the syil on it.
I can't beleive the MX has a spindle that low (1.48kw I beleive)!!!.

I mean, you can tell how badly underpowered the Tormach is by the fact the whole thing runs off a 20A breaker on single phase.

2.2kw continuous is usually the limit for single phase 220v drives. The syil is 3 phase which makes it a non option for many people. Power is not really on the top of the list for tormach shortcomings.
Remember that haas lists the peak power before catching fire - so divide by about 2 to fairly compare to the tormach. Not sure how the Syil rating is derived.

[jwatte]

> 2.2kw continuous is usually the limit for single phase 220v drives.

That seems low. Like, my car has a single-phase 240V charger, and charges at three times that, continuous. My electric water heater draws 10 kW per phase (but it wants two phases.)

If you mean "single phase, 120V" then, yes, modern housing generally has 20A /12ga circuits, which are good for 2.4 kW, and older houses have 15A/14-16ga circuits good for 1.8 kW.


Regarding the HAAS TMs, remember that you have to pay another $1700 for rigid tapping, and another $3300 for "high speed machining," which really just means "don't just go to the next coordinate, then stop, then go to the next target, ..." Both of those features are already included for free in PathPilot / LCNC.

[ihavenofish]

> 2.2kw continuous is usually the limit for single phase 220v drives.

That seems low. Like, my car has a single-phase 240V charger, and charges at three times that, continuous. My electric water heater draws 10 kW per phase (but it wants two phases.)

If you mean "single phase, 120V" then, yes, modern housing generally has 20A /12ga circuits, which are good for 2.4 kW, and older houses have 15A/14-16ga circuits good for 1.8 kW.


Regarding the HAAS TMs, remember that you have to pay another $1700 for rigid tapping, and another $3300 for "high speed machining," which really just means "don't just go to the next coordinate, then stop, then go to the next target, ..." Both of those features are already included for free in PathPilot / LCNC.

2.2kw is the continuous output of the spindle. it will peak at 200% of that. so 4.4kw for several seconds to several minutes (depends on the drive and the motor)

Just need to make sure you are comparing apples to apples.

As to why the limit? Not really sure, but every line of drives (outside a few custom made ones i've seen) stops at 2.2kw for single phase.

[sd624]

You’re not going to touch a Syil for 28k especially with the Siemens controller. Here’s a copy of the quote I got from them a couple of weeks ago. It’s the X7 economy package so no fancy Siemens controller.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Kenny Duval]

Man, I am glad I found the deal on mine when I did. I'm only into it for $18k from the original purchaser. Still under $25k after shipping, rotary phase converter and electrical installation. I did see one up for grabs on Fleabay that they were asking $33k for everything. It includes a phase converter as well.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/32465602884...kAAOSwvuRgw2oL

[number40Fan]

nerdly on YouTube has both. He hasn't done a comparison of them and not sure he will. Might be worth your time to check out his videos. He is good about answering questions, from what I understand, if you're a patreon member.

[Spinnetti]

As a former 1100 owner (had to sell it when I moved), seems to me Tormach has left the hobby market. I don't see why you'd get either of those when you could get this and have 10x the machine.

[Steve303]

As a former 1100 owner (had to sell it when I moved), seems to me Tormach has left the hobby market. I don't see why you'd get either of those when you could get this and have 10x the machine.

The Haas TM-0P is coming out this fall which will be another option.

[rmantoo]

For that kind of money, I'd also consider the Prototrak- especially if the 101" x 78" x101" of the haas footprint is too large.

The Prototrak's footprint is 52"x30" and for $32k has a 6k spindle and ATC. For $39 has a 10k spindle and an ATC.

https://www.southwesternindustries.c...g-centers/vmc2

Every time I go back and forth about which machines to get in the Tormach vs Syil debate, as soon as I step up to the 1100 vs X7, the VMC2 seems like a no-brainer- especially when you consider the RMX control systems' simple conversational programming (still gcode compatible, but VERY EASY to do ad-hoc changes).

I've played with the RMX control system on full-sized Prototraks, and it's pretty dang amazing.

[Steve303]

It looks like the new Haas TM-0P mill will be under $30K with ATC. The final specs will be out this fall. It's good to see more mill options out there. Competition is good.

[Spinnetti]

It looks like the new Haas TM-0P mill will be under $30K with ATC. The final specs will be out this fall. It's good to see more mill options out there. Competition is good.

Cool I hadn't heard about the new machines! Feels like Tormach is moving up, and Haas moving down, but still seems to me the Haas is a lot more machine for the money, especially the 0P

[CL_MotoTech]

Under $30k with ATC, then $26k worth of addons to make the thing do all the basic stuff you need.

[Kenny Duval]

I see someone has shopped Haas before.

[rmantoo]

The thing that really kills HAAS for me is that the nearest HAAS service center (or whatever the place is called) is +- an 8 hour drive away, so any services that have to be performed by a factory authorized tech START at about $1500, before any work is actually done.

My buddies in Midland who run several machines have had HAAS in the past, and 1 currently. Several have recounted a $2k bill for what amounted to 5 minutes with a connected laptop. Enough so that for me haas is an absolute no-go.

I've been almost agonizing over a used Tormach 1100 vs a used X7... For $10k, one can find an 1100 w/a decent amount of tooling and extras- sometimes a 4th axis even. But as soon as one starts looking at new, I honestly think the 1100 and the X7 are outshined by the VM2.

Prototrak (not the VM2 or 2OP, to be completely honest, but one of their full-sized machines) seems to treat service differently. They have a local tech, which makes all the difference, imho.

My current shop (the back of my garage) simply doesn't have enough room for a full-sized VMC. I'm kinda relegated to a relatively small footprint.

[jwatte]

They have a local tech

Thinking out of the box here: Could *you* become the local HAAS contract technician?