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IndustryArena Forum > Machine Controllers Software and Solutions > FlashCut CNC > Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
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    Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    Hi all. The machine shop that is attached to my engineering firm has an old (1988) RoboTool CVM-1 sitting in the corner of its shop. the mill is in pristine condition and they said it held tight tolerance before the control box stopped working about 5 years ago. They said they were able to coax it for a while (aka hit the side and "sweet talk it") but it just got less and less reliable over time, until they finally just put it in the corner and left it. Summed up I was able to get them interested in retrofitting a pc based controller to the machine and they asked me to price out a complete package including assembly/installation time.

    So a little background on myself. I am working as an engineering tech while I work my way through school (2nd year MechE student). I have quite a bit of machining and solidworks experience but very little electronics background. Having said that I have wanted to get a lot more exposure to the electronics/assembly side of things for a while, so I see this PC CNC retrofit as an excellent opportunity to do that.

    So I have researched the options for a few weeks now and I really like what I am seeing with the FlashCut system. At least from what I can tell the USB signal generator gives me the ability to plug in my various systems (coolant, 3 axis servos drivers etc) and have a very close to working system. There would be a good bit (aka a lot) of adjustment getting all the servos/systems tuned, but I like how FlashCut seems to have put a very refined packaged together.

    My question is will my existing hardware work with FlashCut though? So I am appealing to the more experienced minds here to give me some advice

    I have attached some pics of the RoboTool, if you guys need any other info I will try my best to provide it. I do have the installation/maintenance manuals as well.

  2. #2
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    Jan 2005
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    15362

    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    URSTech

    It will work only if the servo Drives take step /dir, you will need a VFD for the spindle motor, unless you plan to use 3Phase power
    Mactec54

  3. #3
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    Apr 2014
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    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    If the drives don't take step/dir would it be possible to replace them with ones that do? Or are servos pretty picky about what drives they are paired with? These servos/drives are original to the machine so I'm not sure if age becomes a factor with selecting drives.

    Oh and it will be setup with 3 phase.

    Came across these from Gecko

    http://www.geckodrive.com/geckodrive...ves/g320x.html

    and CNC4PC has this

    CNC4PC

  4. #4
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    Jan 2005
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    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    URSTech

    I see that the motor is .25 Hp that is very wimpy for a machine that size,I would say that the performance would not be very good, 750w would be the best size motor for that machine
    Mactec54

  5. #5
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    Apr 2014
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    22

    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    Ah well I would like to get nicer servos eventually, but for now I am just going to use what we have so we can keep costs down and get the machine running asap. Surprisingly those servos kept the machinists happy, they actually have a very high opinion of the machine and its ability to operate/hold very tight tolerances. They have quite a few Haas and Fadel VMCs so this will mainly be used for educational purposes for now, although it might fill in for some production work if they have overflow.

  6. #6
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    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    URSTech

    The machine will have around a 80 IPM rapid, for educational purposes, that would be good, for production 80 IPM rapid on the x axes that would get old very fast, as for tolerance expect no better than .001
    Mactec54

  7. #7
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    Apr 2014
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    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    yea 80 IPM is about what I am expecting... frankly not sure I want that massive un-enclosed hunk of a bed flying around at 200+ IPM. +/- .005 is standard on all our drawings unless tighter tolerances are specified (O-Ring groves etc) so no better then .001 would be perfectly acceptable for what this machine will be doing. If the machinists ever use it they will probably just be big straight line roughing jobs or surfacing with a fly-cutter. Either way I will probably be the primary user of the machine while I learn to use CAM/G&M code.

    Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what function do the servo amps serve? I was going over the CVM-1 manual and saw them listed as a part in the electronics cabinet. I assume the servo amp interfaces with the drivers/servos in some way but I'm not sure what its function is. Would I need to replace them if I get new servo drivers?

  8. #8
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    Jan 2005
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    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    URSTech

    The servo amp/drive is what drives the servo motor, the control tells the servo amp/drive what to do, yes you would need to change the servo drives/amps to suit what ever servo motor you are using, you may be able to drive the motors that you have with something like the Geko or Dugong DC servo drives, then you could use Mach3 for your control
    Mactec54

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    413

    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    Just call Flashcut with the brand and model of the drives themselves... ask them if they have any experience with using them. After all, they have been doing retrofits with an excellent Windows based control program since what ? 1997 ??? They are a friendly bunch. I'm sure they can advise if your drives will work or recommend options.

    Now obviously they will likely recommend NEW drives because frankly, there is such a difference in performance between some of that old junk and what is available now. The other advantage is that they know what works best from a support issue aspect. But, if you can determine that the drives you have allow for Step/Dir, and you want to spend a little time attempting to use them, by all means, at least you would know that you do not have to troubleshoot a buggy control.

    There is little doubt that Flashcut will be the best option available if you want to spend less time combing forums trying to figure out why your control doesn't work the way one would expect, when one can rather focus on the learning of code and machining in general. I too tried the inexpensive controls, but after even just a few times of them doing funny things and unexpectedly destroying tooling and stock, it did not pay to look back. Flashcut is well worth the extra money, especially on decent hardware.
    Chris L

  10. #10
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    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    datac

    His drives on this machine are analog, so not much use, for anything other than the control that was running them
    Mactec54

  11. #11
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    Apr 2014
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    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    datac

    His drives on this machine are analog, so not much use, for anything other than the control that was running them
    I guess what wondering is if I replace the drives with either of the ones I listed above would that make the machine compatible with Flashcut? In either case I will try and give FC a call tomorrow and see what they say. Have been trying to email them but I'm not getting any response.

    Yea agreed Datac. I am very leary of going with Mach3 because I really don't want to be stuck debugging this mill for the next few months. I want a system that can get this machine up and running and get me making chips with as little glitchiness/bugs as possible. I don't mind a little extra expense (which really is hardly $300 once you include the cost of comparable hardware/software with the signal generator) for stability and a dedicated costumer service phone line. My time is not cheap either, so having the box all assembled will actually save money.

    I am trying to get a good idea of exactly what will be involved in this retrofit. So from the research I have done so far this is kinda a general outline of what I will have to do. Feel free to jump in and add stuff/make comments on the list. I am very open/eager to learn here.

    1. remove old controller
    2. install new drivers (wired to servo amps, Servo and servo encoder?) like these CNC4PC
    3. tune servos
    4. Wire the various systems (coolant, drivers etc) to the flashcut USB signal generator.
    5. connect USB signal generator to PC with Flashcut installed
    6. sync/tune the various systems to Flashcut Software.

    Am I missing any steps?

  12. #12
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    Jan 2005
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    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    URSTech

    Yes any drives that will run your motors, & accept Step/Dir will be able to use the Flashcut signal generator, don't get Mach 3 wrong for what you are doing, with just 3 axes control it will work fine, & is not buggy in any way, to set up Mach3 could take a whole 20 minutes may be less,Like 5 minutes if you know what you are doing, I'm not trying to say to use Mach3 I like Flashcut as well, but you were wanting to do it cheap as you could

    Support from Flashcut is excellent I have used/installed Flashcut before as well

    2. install new drivers (wired to servo amps, Servo and servo encoder?) like these CNC4PC

    The biggest problem you will have is marrying the motors to the new drives, the new drives are not wired to the servo amps that you already have, the amps you have will be removed, all you will be using is the power supply, so you have to make sure the new drives can use the output voltage/amps that your motors use & the encoders or what ever is on the motors
    Mactec54

  13. #13
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    Apr 2014
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    22

    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    Ah ok yea I was thinking I could just wire the PSU into the drivers without needing the amps which was why I asked the question before about the amp's function. Now that I look at my question I did not word it very clearly. Anyhow I was talking to Arturo Duncan at CNC4PC and he thinks the DG4S-08020 CNC4PC will work with my motors/PSU.

    So price wise it looks like I am at roughly $1300 for the FlashCut hardware/software and $330 for the three drivers. Not sure yet if I will need to replace the servo encoders. If I need to replace the encoders any recommendations? Also anything that you can think of that I am obviously missing as far as costs go? I have budgeted about $300 for misc electronics cables/connectors. My shop does have a lot of connectors/wire from previous jobs though so some of that could just come out of overhead.

    If I can keep this within the parts/material budget I might add a VFD right off the bat. Would that be wired into the FlashCut system as well for spindle speed control?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    2143

    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    As stated earlier, Flashcut tech and sales support is AWESOME. I chatted with them for over an hour when I was researching options for a future machine and had no intent to buy in the near future. I got ALL the answers I wanted and more, and was very happy with the discussion. You can make 1000 posts here and not get the amount of information you could in a 10 minute call to Flashcut, let alone an hour... Pick up the phone!
    CAD, CAM, Scanning, Modelling, Machining and more. http://www.mcpii.com/3dservices.html

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    413

    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    Steps involved ?

    Wire your new motor drivers to the existing motors....

    Same for Encoders, but it is very possible that you will need to or want to use new encoders... you need to find out the count per rev on what you have, then compare that with what the control can work with. The point is that many older machines had much lower pulse counts because the control software could not process higher counts. Today, higher counts are not a problem, so in many cases, much higher counts have become the norm. IF you can run your current encoders just to get it running, by all means I would try to... its one of those areas that can be easily updated later when and if necessary.

    Provide a proper power supply for the drives....

    Wire the step/dir outputs between the Flashcut SG box and the drives. You do not really need much here other than a terminal strip between them..... I know many will use 3rd party "break-out" boards which usually is just an extra expense and location for breakdown down the road. Most of these boards have been required by other controls because they would stabilize/increase output voltages from a weak parallel port, but you won't be using that old technology anyhow. Another reason some use the boards might be for the "built in" output relays (often not capable of high enough amperage) or LED "indicators" to help with diagnosis, all stuff that is simple to toss together. You Can use a board, but you do not have to (I happen to have a CNC4PC board on a Novakon NM-200 that I left in place out of convenience during a fast retrofit to FC.. like I said, it works, but down the road, to me anyhow, just adds another thing that can go wrong.


    VFD control via Flashcut ? Sure. Piece of cake. But you have to get the add-on board from Flashcut for that. I believe that they offer more than one variation... a simple single purpose plugin board for just 0-10v output and also a larger multipurpose board that can provide multiple 0-10v sources along with increased room for other I/O requirements. Not sure what the boards cost anymore, but I'm sure less whe nbundled with an initial sale. I know that was one thing I could not get from Mach3 on my NM-200.... a stable ANYTHING to run the VFD (well, there were plenty of other quirks, but it gets annoying when you can not depend on the spindle firing up unattended). I was starting to think it was a bad VFD (it is a really flaky looking imported thing), but after Flashcut, it has been rock solid reliable.

    You will end up really liking the ability to use practically any old or new PC, even a laptop to run your machine. Flashcut is NOT invasive at all to the PC. I have a little "desktop" machine that for a long time was just connected to my main office PC. No special config's... no special core drivers... just load the software, load your setup file and run !
    Chris L

  16. #16
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    Apr 2014
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    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    Well I gave Flashcut a call and they sounded a little disappointed when I told them I wanted to use my own servos/hardware. They made a big deal about not being sure if their system would be compatible with my drivers (which seemed to be their main concern). So they asked me to send an email with the info on the gecko and cnc4pc drivers.

    http://www.geckodrive.com/geckodrive...ves/g320x.html

    CNC4PC

    They did say FlashCut will only work with optical encoders. time to read up on digital vs optical encoders. Probably not an issue though, since I'm guessing it has optical encoders.

    I'm thinking from what I have read that my servos and current PSU will work with those drivers... now to find out if FlashCut will!

  17. #17
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    6028

    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    Have you looked at ajax. The mach plugin is a little glitchy, but the centroid version works well. Pretty easy since its an all in one kit.

    Sent from my G-Tab Quantum using Tapatalk

  18. #18
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    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    Quote Originally Posted by underthetire View Post
    Have you looked at ajax. The mach plugin is a little glitchy, but the centroid version works well. Pretty easy since its an all in one kit.

    Sent from my G-Tab Quantum using Tapatalk
    I have/am looking at the Ajax Centroid all in one. Seems like a good system and I plan on pitching it to my boss along with FlashCut. Right now the main perks for Centroid is that our machinists have several mills with a centroid controller already, so they would be a little more familiar with Ajax.

    Main perks for FlashCut is it seems more modular (could easily take the SG and plug it into another machine setup for it) and is a little less expensive. We have an older CNC Lathe that has had its controller parts fail on a couple occasions, they had to send all the way to Japan for parts and they were used off a machine being sold for parts. So having the main part of a redundant system (PC and FlashCut SG) ready to move over could be a main selling point for my boss.

  19. #19
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    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    URSTech

    Your motors have Resolvers not Encoders, so you will have to figure this part out before you move forward
    Mactec54

  20. #20
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    Re: Will FlashCut work with older existing Servos?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    URSTech

    Your motors have Resolvers not Encoders, so you will have to figure this part out before you move forward
    Curious how you know it has resolvers? Was that just from the age or is there info on the Servo nameplate that gave that info away?

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