[dumpybunny]

hello all, I am running a 2005 vf2 with fairly low running hours and have started to notice a noise getting louder in my spindle. usually it is there during a high speed machining operation I run often at 4000 RPM. this morning with the shop being a bit colder than usual the noise was very loud when running anything over 2000 rpm. it has gotten quieter since the spindle has warmed up but im trying to find a possible solution before what cold be a bigger failure. I was going to take a video but I found one online that shows the exact noise my machine is making. thanks in advance for any help.

[Geof]

I listened to the video and I have to say I am not sure the noise is in the spindle. You can hear the motor whine increase as the spindle rpm increases but the other noise stays at the same rate which suggests it is not related exactly to the rpm. I used to have a Super MiniMill that had a somewhat similar strange noise which I eventually traced to a resonant vibration of the sheet metal hitting against a protrusion on the head casting. But I do have a question and suggestion.

Do you run the spindle Warm Up programme every morning? That is program O02020.

If you have not been running this programme there is a different program you should run, the Run In program O02021.

Both of these programs are poorly named: They do not "Warm Up" or "Run In" the spindle they purge out the oil that has drained down to the lower spindle bearings while the spindle is stationary for many hours. This accumulation of oil can cause funny noises if the spindle is run at high speed but more importantly it can cause seriuos overheating and damage to the spindle

[dumpybunny]

I listened to the video and I have to say I am not sure the noise is in the spindle. You can hear the motor whine increase as the spindle rpm increases but the other noise stays at the same rate which suggests it is not related exactly to the rpm. I used to have a Super MiniMill that had a somewhat similar strange noise which I eventually traced to a resonant vibration of the sheet metal hitting against a protrusion on the head casting. But I do have a question and suggestion.

Do you run the spindle Warm Up programme every morning? That is program O02020.

If you have not been running this programme there is a different program you should run, the Run In program O02021.

Both of these programs are poorly named: They do not "Warm Up" or "Run In" the spindle they purge out the oil that has drained down to the lower spindle bearings while the spindle is stationary for many hours. This accumulation of oil can cause funny noises if the spindle is run at high speed but more importantly it can cause seriuos overheating and damage to the spindle

I guess my best response to that is that I do run a warm up program, but it is one that was a basic hand written program by a previous employee that used to run this machine, just a cycle of different rpms with some table movements. I was not aware, (and im sure he wasn't either) about a specific program that has the purpose of purging the oil from the lower spindle bearings. I could possibly believe it to be the noises im hearing. I checked all my program files and I do not have either of those programs, if you have those handy that would be a big help.

[Geof]

They are attached in this thread Post #6

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/haas_m...tml#post543347

[WallyL7]

I was not aware, (and im sure he wasn't either) about a specific program that has the purpose of purging the oil from the lower spindle bearings.

Just for clarity there is no magical program...a hand written one that starts off at around 1000rpm and slowly increases to max rpm is fine. I always write my own program that sounds like the one you have (moves the axis' while slowly increasing rpm)

[mactec54]

dumpybunny

The noise you can here is the Bearing cage skidding, so there may be to much oil in there or there could be some bearing damage

On machines with linear ways there is no need for any warm up program for the X Y Z, it does not hurt anything but just not needed, the spindle should always run a warm up program though, that starts at around 800 RPM, Haas has one that comes with the machine, that should always be run before use, You can modify this program to be shorter if you don't run up to the max RPM

There run in program can help if you have too much oil in the spindle

[haastec]

On machines with linear ways there is no need for any warm up program for the X Y Z, it does not hurt anything but just not needed,

I respectfully disagree. You can have thermal expansion affecting accuracy, therefore, a good warm up program can help minimize this.

[dumpybunny]

I listened to the video and I have to say I am not sure the noise is in the spindle. You can hear the motor whine increase as the spindle rpm increases but the other noise stays at the same rate which suggests it is not related exactly to the rpm. I used to have a Super MiniMill that had a somewhat similar strange noise which I eventually traced to a resonant vibration of the sheet metal hitting against a protrusion on the head casting. But I do have a question and suggestion.

Do you run the spindle Warm Up programme every morning? That is program O02020.

If you have not been running this programme there is a different program you should run, the Run In program O02021.

Both of these programs are poorly named: They do not "Warm Up" or "Run In" the spindle they purge out the oil that has drained down to the lower spindle bearings while the spindle is stationary for many hours. This accumulation of oil can cause funny noises if the spindle is run at high speed but more importantly it can cause seriuos overheating and damage to the spindle

dumpybunny

The noise you can here is the Bearing cage skidding, so there may be to much oil in there or there could be some bearing damage

On machines with linear ways there is no need for any warm up program for the X Y Z, it does not hurt anything but just not needed, the spindle should always run a warm up program though, that starts at around 800 RPM, Haas has one that comes with the machine, that should always be run before use, You can modify this program to be shorter if you don't run up to the max RPM

There run in program can help if you have too much oil in the spindle

when I came in this morning I ran the run in program found above. the noise was there during the entire program and now while running a part it is there the same as before so im pretty sure its something beyond having too much oil in the spindle.

also not that ive always watched the spindle temperature and it has never approached the point of being more than warm to the touch.

[mactec54]

I respectfully disagree. You can have thermal expansion affecting accuracy, therefore, a good warm up program can help minimize this.

If your machines are in a shop with a stable temperature, it makes no difference at all, & is a complete waste of wear & tear on the machines ballscrews & linear rails, it takes many hours of running to have any change in the X & Y axes in a temperature controlled shop, you always get a Zaxes adjustment as this is caused by your spindle having thermal expansion, even after a spindle warm up, it takes some time for it to stablilize

If you are in a shop that does not have a stable temperature, then it would always be a good idea to run a complete machine warm up

[fizzissist]

On our relatively new VF3 the spindle makes unnerving noises, like the chirping you get when a bearing is getting ready to fail. I recorded this on my iPhone just for reference.
A Haas tech was in and heard it, we talked about it and it is understood that if Haas replaced every spindle that makes noise they'd go broke. The reality is that we're not having problems with either surface finish or tolerances, and since it's documented it won't be a problem if it does fail. We run 2020 every morning and lube is running properly. 'Bout all you can do.
I'd post the video here if I knew how....

I don't think the spindle should make any noise at all, but it does, and it's intermittent which just makes it all the more troubling.

[mactec54]

dumpybunny

How much oil drips out of your spindle, you can get this sound also if there is not enough oil in the spindle bearings as well,check that you are get oil to the spindle

Do you have high pressure through spindle coolant, you could check the spindle Encoder belt Etc

The sound in the video does sound like a bearing cage skidding, But because the video is not of your machine, you may have something totally different going on

[dumpybunny]

dumpybunny

How much oil drips out of your spindle, you can get this sound also if there is not enough oil in the spindle bearings as well,check that you are get oil to the spindle

Do you have high pressure through spindle coolant, you could check the spindle Encoder belt Etc

The sound in the video does sound like a bearing cage skidding, But because the video is not of your machine, you may have something totally different going on

the oil system has been checked and is working properly. I do not have through spindle coolant. the video I posted shows literally the exact sound that mine is making, I would not have posted it if I simply saw it as a spindle making "a sound". their video has the sound much clearer to hear than what I could pick up using my phone to take a video.

using the screwdriver to ear method I can tell it is in the lower part of the spindle in the black protrusion outside the sheet metal.

[mactec54]

using the screwdriver to ear method I can tell it is in the lower part of the spindle in the black protrusion outside the sheet metal.

With the oil system working correctly you will have some oil dripping from the spindle, do you have this??

If the noise is coming from were you checked it with the screwdriver, it does sound like a bearing cage or balls are skidding, did this start after the machine had been sitting for a while

[dumpybunny]

With the oil system working correctly you will have some oil dripping from the spindle, do you have this??

If the noise is coming from were you checked it with the screwdriver, it does sound like a bearing cage or balls are skidding, did this start after the machine had been sitting for a while

yes I occasionally will have oil drip from the spindle. it has been more of gradually getting louder over time, the machine hasn't sat any longer than a week on rare occasions since it was new.

[Machineit]

I respectfully disagree. You can have thermal expansion affecting accuracy, therefore, a good warm up program can help minimize this.

Ohhhh, I have to disagree with you. No heat what-so-ever will be generated with a "Warmup" program in X, Y, or Z. If you ran it a 100% rapids for several hours, maybe, but why do that then run parts when it will cool down from there. Just excessive wear and tear. Just have a ballscrew failure under warranty and then tell Haas that you ran a warm-up program for two hours each morning at full rapids over the full range to the machine. I would hate to hear what they would say to that.

Spindles are where heat is generated for almost all machines. The heat will affect lathes farm more than mills, just because the spindle are larger etc.

A so called warm up program for the ways on a mill will do nothing but spread lubrication and that should be done by running the program anyway.

Sorry!

Mike

[dertsap]

Ohhhh,

A so called warm up program for the ways on a mill will do nothing but spread lubrication and that should be done by running the program anyway.

Sorry!

Mike

under normal circumstances it's probably not much of a problem , but under extreme tolerance conditions thermal expansion can take place within minutes and generally starts the second the machine stops . Ive worked on parts which we bored a 16 inch 7 hole bcd , once we calculated the drawing tolerance we had .00025 xy machine positional tolerance to a pre-machined center shaft . These bores were machined in three steps , first to clean and measure the machine position , second open up the bore some more and recheck the position , third finish bore . Sounds easy , but the 4140 forgings were at times temperamental and more so was the machine temperature change
Taking too much time to measure the bores and their position was enough to throw out the machine enough to scrap a part , we had to be quick with our calculations otherwise we'd have to re-pick up the work position and take our chances . This was done on mori and enshu 650 mills which were highly calibrated and inspected before we'd run these jobs . If thermal expansion problems exist on those mills , then from my experience it is extremely likely on a haas

[haasmillman]

I've seen a Haas tech diagnose noises by turning spindle on and then cutting the power. If the noise is still there it is the spindle. if the noise goes away it could be motor or gear box.

[mactec54]

yes I occasionally will have oil drip from the spindle. it has been more of gradually getting louder over time, the machine hasn't sat any longer than a week on rare occasions since it was new.

There should be a small amount of oil coming out of the spindle all the time, there is a air/oil mixture that is going through the spindle when it is running, if this has not been enough then you may have a bearing problem, another problem is water in the air can rust the bearings as well, which will destroy them over time

[Machineit]

Taking too much time to measure the bores and their position was enough to throw out the machine enough to scrap a part , we had to be quick with our calculations otherwise we'd have to re-pick up the work position and take our chances . This was done on mori and enshu 650 mills which were highly calibrated and inspected before we'd run these jobs . If thermal expansion problems exist on those mills , then from my experience it is extremely likely on a haas

If what you say is correct, then no amount of "Warm-up" would be usable, as it would start changing right away and just be very inconsistent.

Your measuring time probably changed the part more than the machine ways/ballscrews and nuts. But, I'll quit and just take your word on it.

Mike

[dertsap]

If what you say is correct, then no amount of "Warm-up" would be usable, as it would start changing right away and just be very inconsistent.

Your measuring time probably changed the part more than the machine ways/ballscrews and nuts. But, I'll quit and just take your word on it.

Mike

No , the part itself did not change due to the measuring time , it was the machine itself which changed , the cmm would get the exact measurements as I was getting on the machine just before pulling the part off the machine . It was a highly controlled process since there was so much riding on them parts .
from cold start it would change significantly under those circumstances . And the inconsistency is there in an extremely small amount once the machine has sat for any period of time , for a period we began charted the changes so that we can predict when and how much it would change (not so easy)
Under normal circumstances thermal doesn't affect much and isn't a concern , but it is certainly there . I think that it is good to add axis moves in a warmup program and have done it many times in the past , it definitely doesn't hurt anything
Anyhow I suppose this isn't helping the thread