[crjohnson]

Hey Craig, when would the 5th and 7th order harmonics typically become a concern?

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Holy... 5700 Euro for that Mechatron spindle? If I might ask, what's the Jianken equivalent cost?

Jiaken is $1500USD for a 3.2kW 24000 rpm (4pole) ATC spindle with either a BT30 or ISO20 interface.
Mechatron is 5700 Euro for 2.5kW 42000rpm (2 pole) ATC with HSK25 interface.

To call the Jiaken spindle an 'equivalent' is a bit of a stretch, Mechatron is top quality and 175% faster than Jiaken, albeit good quality.
For high speed OPs HSK is much preferred.

Craig

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Hey Craig, when would the 5th and 7th order harmonics typically become a concern?

All the time....that is the way VFDs draw power from the supply at all times. It's those pesky harmonics that line reactors and DClink chokes are designed to combat.
A $50-$100 part and the problem, if not goes away, is vastly improved.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hey Craig, when would the 5th and 7th order harmonics typically become a concern?

Only if you don't have a EMI Filter and have other sensitive electronics that are near by, other than that there should be no concern at all if good wiring practice's are used, ( Shielded Cables Etc. ) and correct Grounding is in place

[mactec54]

Hi,



All the time....that is the way VFDs draw power from the supply at all times. It's those pesky harmonics that line reactors and DClink chokes are designed to combat.
A $50-$100 part and the problem, if not goes away, is vastly improved.

Craig

Do you have a supply of Single Phase Line Reactors designed for this application

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

Do you have a supply of Single Phase Line Reactors designed for this application

The first one I made, but a three phase reactor with all three windings in parallel is an easy way to go.

Only if you don't have a EMI Filter and have other sensitive electronics that are near by, other than that there should be no concern at all if good wiring practice's are used,

Those harmonics are already happening on the power supply wires. It entirely possible for those same harmonics to enter the power supply for your PC or controller and thence through
to the device, it does not have to be radiated. An EMI filter helps but they work best at higher frequencies whereas a line reactor in large measure prevents the harmonics from being generated
in the first place.

Craig

[mactec54]

Hi, The first one I made, but a three phase reactor with all three windings in parallel is an easy way to go. Craig

Where are the photos of these Frankenstein Reactors you have made and are using, no you can not use a 3Phase Reactor for Single Phase so where is the Single Phase Reactor supply you keep talking about

Those harmonics are already happening on the power supply wires. It entirely possible for those same harmonics to enter the power supply for your PC or controller and thence through
to the device, it does not have to be radiated. An EMI filter helps but they work best at higher frequencies whereas a line reactor in large measure prevents the harmonics from being generated
in the first place. Craig

Of cause there are already Harmonics in the Electrical Supply System

Computers and most electronics that are sensitive all have Line Filters already built in

[mactec54]

Hi, Those harmonics are already happening on the power supply wires. It entirely possible for those same harmonics to enter the power supply for your PC or controller and thence through
to the device, it does not have to be radiated. An EMI filter helps but they work best at higher frequencies whereas a line reactor in large measure prevents the harmonics from being generated
in the first place.

Craig

May be an Engineers view will help you understand how Harmonic's are tamed and not with the use of a Line Reactor, Line Reactors do have a place and are sometimes a requirement in an installation

In an electrical system, the term power factor is the ratio of usable real power to non-usable apparent power sometimes called reactive power. It not only controls energy consumption but also how that energy consumption is billed.

The lower the power factor the higher the required necessary current draw, which will require a more robust infrastructure and the use of appropriately heavier gauge wires to minimize the dissipation of power. This means that on-premises utility usage will be more costly, and facilities operating with low power factors will be charged at a higher usage utility rate than facilities with high power factors.

Fortunately, there are ways to correct sub-par operating power factors and greatly reduce or eliminate frequency harmonics to ensure higher cost efficiency of an operating electrical system.

There are two scenarios causing power factor displacements – operating power factor and harmonic power factor. The first displacement is caused by any inductance in an electrical load, (such as a motor) causing the delivered current to be out of phase with the supply voltage, while the latter displacement results from any non-linear switching of the utilized supply voltages, such is the case when using power semiconductor devices and rectifier circuits.

For an electrical system to function properly, any harmonic resonance present and/or harmonic distortion must be eliminated

When there is a large supply of individual currents from a number of harmonic current sources, the system could resonate. This is especially true if one of the harmonic frequencies of the current sources coincides with the resonant frequency created from the combination of the supply transformer’s and the capacitor circuitry combination which is being used for power factor correction.

The large flow of current going to a major supply transformer (such as in a data center) can lead to a large harmonic voltage distortion. This event increases the risk of increased heating which will cause the loss of some of the transformer’s power output, possible malfunction of connected equipment, possible premature failure of other connected power factor correction capacitors and motors, and interference in some communication systems.

Harmonic Filters – A Practical Solution
To reduce or eliminate harmonic resonance and distortion, a true harmonic filter needs to be used at strategic operating circuit points.

What is a harmonic filter?
As previously mentioned, harmonic filters are used to eliminate harmonic distortion caused by excess currents in and out of appliances. It can prevent large quantities of harmonics from causing damage to equipment, downtime of operation, and preventing an increase in operating costs.

What is a harmonic filter made of?
The interior of a harmonic filter is made up of an array of resistors, inductors, and capacitors that are capable of deflecting unwanted harmonic currents, sending them to ground. Some of these filters are designed to deflect harmonics of a specific frequency or frequencies.

What are the various types of harmonic filters?
Passive Harmonic Filters – These filters are typically used in industrial installations with loads representing more than 500kVA. These filters require power-factor correction during installation.

Active Harmonic Filters
Also known as active harmonic conditioners, these filters are often used in commercial installations with loads less than 500kVA. They help to reduce current distortion that could lead to equipment heating and circuit overloads.

Hybrid Filters
A system that combines passive and active filters for industrial installations with loads more than 500kVA. It has the advantage of the previous two types of filters and covers different power and performance levels.

Each of these options has their place in the market. It is important that a user identifies the amount of harmonic distortion that needs to be eliminated before a filter is chosen. Active filters, for example, are ideal when there is more than one type of load present, such as UPS, VFD, and DC drives

[StrawberryBoi]

Line reactors are just electrically isolated matching inductors, typically three for a three phase connection.

Application notes for almost every single one I can find specifically suggest connecting L1 and L2 to two of the outputs from a three phase line reactor to use it as a single phase from a three phase supply OR connecting one, two, or three of the coils in parallel to L1in and L1out with L2 connecting back without a line reactor.


Let's step back and recognize that we're all various degrees of pretty but that it's getting petty and this is no longer arguably beneficial to the OP. If we want to continue pointing out the various degrees of technical correctness we can take it to a new thread.

[mactec54]

Line reactors are just electrically isolated matching inductors, typically three for a three phase connection.

Application notes for almost every single one I can find specifically suggest connecting L1 and L2 to two of the outputs from a three phase line reactor to use it as a single phase from a three phase supply OR connecting one, two, or three of the coils in parallel to L1in and L1out with L2 connecting back without a line reactor.


Let's step back and recognize that we're all various degrees of pretty but that it's getting petty and this is no longer arguably beneficial to the OP. If we want to continue pointing out the various degrees of technical correctness we can take it to a new thread.

Do you know how big a 30A 3 Phase Line Reactor is, if anyone was to use a 3phase Line Reactor it can not be wired as you have posted

You can only use a 3 Phase Line Reactor by using the 2 outside coils only, for Single Phase, the center coil can never be used or connected

Something to watch for is the Reactance when using a Line Reactor like this, as the total reactance on the supply side will be twice the reactance of the line reactor so a calculation has to be made to select the right Line Reactor to use and of cause the voltage drop, even though small can make a difference in some application's

The Op has very little interest in what is being posted here, so facts are important for anyone that may stumble across this thread

[StrawberryBoi]

I see that most 3 and 2 coil line reactors have the iron going through the other coil instead of having a yoke.

There ARE 1 phase line reactors that are single coil and a 3 phase line reactor could also be yoked and have independent coils. What the wiring diagrams for most 3 and 2 coil reactors fail to capture is the magnetic path, which is not isolated.

For balancing reasons you would wire a single phase reactor with L1 and L2 on the outside of the three coils because the third coil will act as the yoke and being open (not shorted) will not provide inductance.

Without this being noted by the suppliers, you could wire L1 on any single coil. You could also wire L1 and L2 on the outside and short the center coil to itself to increase the inductance.

Since you are targeting a % voltage drop that is dependent upon the target current, you do of course as always with anything need to math it.

Condescending smiley faces aside, your information matches the typical usage but not the exclusive usage mac. I again acknowledge I failed to capture the bulk of correct applications much as you fail to capture the breadth of them.



I see nobody makes it due to the lack of practical means of achieving a 3D magnetic path at low cost, but a 3 coil reactor with total symmetry is also possible using a triangular positioning and a Y shaped return on top and bottom, or by yoking each individual coil.

Ultimately, the line reactance for single phase is not required to be achieved with a coil on both L1 and L2 as this is a single circuit, you only need to target a total reactance which can be achieved on either leg or both together. The less common but extant single coil line reactor is such an example of this by design intent.

Hell, technically you could operate with only 2 coils on a 3 phase application if the load was connected in a WYE, though it would change the per coil inductance.

Just to be clear I'm not arguing in favor of a line reactor.

[crjohnson]

G'day guys,
Thank you all for taking to time to reply to my thread. I have ordered a Fuling 3.7kW 1000Hz VFD (with sensorless vector control), and will soon get a TDK-Lambda filter on order.

The plan is to get this up and running, then see would the power factor turns out and if I need to add anything else to the system to improve performance or reliability.

[mactec54]

G'day guys,
Thank you all for taking to time to reply to my thread. I have ordered a Fuling 3.7kW 1000Hz VFD (with sensorless vector control), and will soon get a TDK-Lambda filter on order.

The plan is to get this up and running, then see would the power factor turns out and if I need to add anything else to the system to improve performance or reliability.

You just need a a good power supply to your shop so your machine has enough power / amps it can use, nothing else will be needed

[mactec54]

[QUOTE=crjohnson;2468762]

Your PM Box is full can't reply

[crjohnson]

Sorry about that! Just deleted some..

[mactec54]

Sorry about that! Just deleted some..

Your Box is full again

[crjohnson]

Deleted more messages again! These inboxes seem so small!

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