[Dubliner]

I recently saw a Tormach with ATC and was quite impressed until I started researching them. I found a machinists site which will remain nameless but as they all seem to own high dollar machines and were quite fond of Haas ( however they did slam the small Haas ). They hardly had a good word to say about Tormach and almost to a man recommended buying a used Haas versus a new Tormach. I know the more money you put into a machine the more you'll get but are Tormach 1100's a good entry level mill? Thanks for your time and no this isn't meant to inflame T owners but I'd like some real user experiences. TY Dubliner

[tbaker2500]

If you go to a forum for the big industrial machines, they'll say the same thing about the Haas's. It's all about what you need the machine to do, and, can you make enough more money on a bigger machine to pay the additional costs?

If we subscribe to the "bigger is always better" mentality, everybody should be driving those house-sized dump trucks use in coal pits. Will it haul more coal than a pickup truck? You betcha. But how much coal do you need to haul? And how much does it cost per mile to drive to the grocery store?

The Tormach is the best machine in it's class. It's just a question of what class you want to be in?

[mike sr1]

Now Tom thats a good analogy, I got a chuckle out of that one....

I love my Tormach but its used on a hobby level mostly, not production. It does very nice work for the things I make, you have to consider the money spent and what you want to do with it. The larger more expensive machines are faster, but at a much greater cost, and they usually dont fit in to a residential setting as well.

Its all in what you want to do. The quality, customer service, parts availability among the smaller machines in this class, the Tormach rates at the top in my opinion.

If I had it to do over again, I would buy the Tormach.

[tbaker2500]

I always think of this machine when I hear a Haas operator (rarely owner) dismiss the Tormach as being too lightweight.

BostCrank - YouTube

[Dubliner]

All that money, and you still have to change the tools by hand . That's a thing of beauty, somebody else said it, but that's better than reality TV.

[SomeWhatLost]

well, everyone says that the Tormach can do anything a big mill can do, it just takes a bit longer...
so, um, just exactly how much longer would it take me to mill a crank like that on my 1100?

as for Should I buy a Tormach...
I don't know? do you want to buy a Tormach?
mine works just fine... I really wouldn't want to trade it in on anything bigger... it the right size for what I want to do...

[Don Clement]

Who cares what some say on some machinist's site. It only matters to me and what fits my business model/budget and Tormach has fit my business model and budget perfectly.

Don

[Blakea1790]

I operate a part time Machining business which I use a Tormach and a Novakon. At my regular job I run Haas, Leadwell, Fryer, and Milltronics machines. When I went to purchase my machines for my business I never second guessed going with a Tormach. Not only does the Tormach operate flawlessly but the repair cost are low, parts are easy to get, and your not at the mercy of a service technician. Sure a has mini mill or tool room mill would be nice but the repair cost are very high, and even a used one your still looking at $20k on average. I run my Tormach around 20 hours a week, I trust it just as much as the "industrial machines" I run at my day job. Also, customer service is excellent.

[Steve Seebold]

I just saw this post. I have had my Tormach since July 2011, it's in my garage and I run it the same as I would any other machine. Granted, I have to take lighter cuts, and more of them, but I don't care. My Tormach does what it's supposed to do.

I run it like a job shop machine. I still bid my work at a job shop rate like I did when I had a real CNC shop with FADAL and Haas CNC's. I just don't make as much money because my Tormach doesn't have a 20 HP 10,000 RPM spindle. BUT, it didn't cost $75,000.00 either.

I seldom take jobs that are more than 50 pieces. I took a job with 200 pieces a fer months ago. I didn't look at the 200 pieces, I looked at $2.600.00. I really screwed up and I was about 6 weeks late with the job. Anything over 50 pieces, I just can't be competitive. On onzie twozie stuff though, you can't compete. My business card actually says "one to ten pieces is our specialty".

I have a 250 piece job coming up that I think I can do well on. It has a .1565 diameter thru hole that's 3.25 inches deep that has to be straight within .001, and I can do that easily.

Would I buy another Tormach? In a heartbeat.

[BNX]

Tough questions. If you're comparing it to a Haas the Tormach is not for you

The Haas is like the big boys. If you buy it you will be the big boys

[BNX]

Ok joke aside. The Tormach might not be for you. I have no experience what so ever and still on a learning curve. I learned from here and my mistakes.

My reasons:
-Fit in my basement
-Prototype freedom
-I do what I want. I sell to others (folks think I am doing it for their needs but really I am doing it for my car and if they like it, they can buy it).
-I don't have a job nor need one to pay off my tormach
-I pay the bills
-Great tech support
-Doesn't cost an arm and leg
-It's simple enough where I can maintenance myself with no experience

The main reason I bought my machine was because I love modifying cars. Cost of some of these parts or to have them "custom made" are insane. It fits my needs with minimal cost and risk which has worked out great.

[Moggot]

I recently saw a Tormach with ATC and was quite impressed until I started researching them. I found a machinists site which will remain nameless but as they all seem to own high dollar machines and were quite fond of Haas ( however they did slam the small Haas ). They hardly had a good word to say about Tormach and almost to a man recommended buying a used Haas versus a new Tormach. I know the more money you put into a machine the more you'll get but are Tormach 1100's a good entry level mill? Thanks for your time and no this isn't meant to inflame T owners but I'd like some real user experiences. TY Dubliner

What was it you wanted to make? Does the tool need to pay for itself? How soon? These are some questions that can inform your decision.

My suspicion is that if you're split between a PCNC or Haas/comparable mills then the answer is probably the Tormach. They're in totally different performance categories. A Haas, even the 'tool room' model, is a very expensive, very powerful tool. It's intended and expected to work for a living in an industrial setting. It's not going to be friendly to the machinist new to CNC work. I certainly wouldn't consider any Haas mill as 'entry' level.

I think Tormach did a good job in designing their products. The size, speeds and features aren't arbitrary. They sat down and really thought about what would be useful, and what wouldn't. Take a look at http://www.tormach.com/uploads/11/TD...lysis-pdf.html if you haven't already. Despite being from Tormach and talking about their own products I think it's a very honest explanation of why the mills are what they are, and may help you ask some important questions.

[z2ws6]

@steve Seebold "I have a 250 piece job coming up that I think I can do well on. It has a .1565 diameter thru hole that's 3.25 inches deep that has to be straight within .001, and I can do that easily."

Im interested in how you do that, I mean no disrespect I'm sure you know what you're doing but I work in the tool room at my company and I would cringe if they asked me to do that on our bridgeports especially 250 times. Short peck with a carbide drill?

[Steve Seebold]

@steve Seebold "I have a 250 piece job coming up that I think I can do well on. It has a .1565 diameter thru hole that's 3.25 inches deep that has to be straight within .001, and I can do that easily."

Im interested in how you do that, I mean no disrespect I'm sure you know what you're doing but I work in the tool room at my company and I would cringe if they asked me to do that on our bridgeports especially 250 times. Short peck with a carbide drill?

It's really quite simple. You start with oversized stock, drill your hole first, then work everything else from that hole. The part I am going to make is 2024 aluminum. The finish size is .450 X .700 X 3.25. All dimensions are +/-.005 except the hole. It's +/-.0005 on the diameter and straight within .001 TIR. I'll start with 5/8 X 1 material. I'll cut it 3.4 long, clean up one end, then stand it up and put the hole in it where it goes, then machine everything else to that hole. See, it's easy.

On a Bridgeport, it's going to be all but impossible to do that. I don't use carbide drills. I use only HSS drills on my PCNC 1100. It's going to take 3 1/2 to 4 minutes to drill and ream that hole and it requires 5 tools. It reqiures a center drill (not a spot drill), then drill a pilot hole with a high quality stub drill, then the long undersized drill, then ream the hole like you would a precision dowel pin hole. Ream it .001 undersized then the finish size. And you have to do all this without moving the part. It's easy, it's just time consuming.

I have another part that I make that has a .156 hole 4.5 inches deep in 3/16 inch thick 7075 alumium and it's .094 from one edge. I can drill 300 pieces and none if them will break out the side of the part.

[Peter Neill]

I've done the same thing putting a 3/8th hole though a 10" length of bar, for some 1" diameter acetal rollers.
Drilled the hole with extended length drill - wanders off line between 1/16th - 1/8th - then mount the bar between centres using the drilled holes to align, but I used a 'drive' centre on one end which was essentially a friction drive, using a little stub mandrel in the tailstock side.
Then mounted the 28m bar between centres and turned the OD to finished size.

Was done some years ago on my old Myford lathe before I sold it, may still have some old pictures.

[sansbury]

A Haas, even the 'tool room' model, is a very expensive, very powerful tool. It's intended and expected to work for a living in an industrial setting. It's not going to be friendly to the machinist new to CNC work. I certainly wouldn't consider any Haas mill as 'entry' level.

A Haas is a lot larger and if you enter "G0 X(straight into vise)" it will break a larger endmill than the Tormach will, but beyond that, what exactly makes them so different to use? There's plenty of reasons to prefer a Tormach (I bought one) but it's not clear to me how it's that different to operate than any other 3-axis milling machine. If anything I'd prefer the fully-integrated control system on a Haas over Mach 3--part of why I use LinuxCNC.

[Hirudin]

When I make a mistake with my hobby mill I often think to myself "I'm glad I didn't just do that to a $60,000 machine".

[sansbury]

I get that on something like an X2, but a Tormach is powerful enough to do a decent amount of damage to a vise or toolholder. Meanwhile, the newer Haas controls (and some other machines as well) have overload protection that will stop everything if the spindle load exceeds a set threshold. It's not Sawstop but it's more protection than you get running for the red button. If you look at industry, a lot of those 6-figure VMCs are being run by guys who aren't exactly brain surgeons. Ease of operation is a huge concern for buyers as it directly impacts productivity and labor costs.

[Hirudin]

Good point, that makes sense. I imagine there are things that you don't even have to think about with the higher-end machines. I've made mistakes while changing from one tool to another, with a tool changer so you wouldn't have to worry about that. I also feel like some of my problems have been from inadequate coolant, seems like that would be less likely with a fancier machine.

Before I bought my first CNC machine (a TAIG) one of the companies I talked to recommended that I buy "the biggest machine [I] could afford". Maybe that was good advice.

[z2ws6]

It's really quite simple. You start with oversized stock, drill your hole first, then work everything else from that hole. The part I am going to make is 2024 aluminum. The finish size is .450 X .700 X 3.25. All dimensions are +/-.005 except the hole. It's +/-.0005 on the diameter and straight within .001 TIR. I'll start with 5/8 X 1 material. I'll cut it 3.4 long, clean up one end, then stand it up and put the hole in it where it goes, then machine everything else to that hole. See, it's easy.

On a Bridgeport, it's going to be all but impossible to do that. I don't use carbide drills. I use only HSS drills on my PCNC 1100. It's going to take 3 1/2 to 4 minutes to drill and ream that hole and it requires 5 tools. It reqiures a center drill (not a spot drill), then drill a pilot hole with a high quality stub drill, then the long undersized drill, then ream the hole like you would a precision dowel pin hole. Ream it .001 undersized then the finish size. And you have to do all this without moving the part. It's easy, it's just time consuming.

I have another part that I make that has a .156 hole 4.5 inches deep in 3/16 inch thick 7075 alumium and it's .094 from one edge. I can drill 300 pieces and none if them will break out the side of the part.

So when you say you work the OD to the hole do you mean you mill it or turn it on a mandrel? Our Bridgeports are equipped with Prototrak cnc's and our circles are usually .0015 out of round. I have never run a brand new mill so I don't know how well one could perform.