584,849 active members*
3,838 visitors online*
Register for free
Login
IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Tormach Personal CNC Mill > 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?
Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1

    5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    Honestly I'm surprised there hasn't been a 5 axis version of the 770 or 1100 yet given how a new MX is now over $33,000 which is quickly approaching Haas territory. My guess is it would be a $30,000-50,000 machine and I think the next closest is a Haas UMC500 which starts over $129,000 so I'd think there's a gap in the market to support it but maybe $50k is just too much to ask for what would be a "Tormach"

    What do you guys think? Is there just not enough of a market to justify developing one? How many of you would be willing to drop that kind of money to get a 5 axis machine? Seems crazy to me they haven't yet but then again maybe I'm unique in wanting one since I've got experience running industrial 5x machines.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Posts
    218

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    I'm honestly surprised there isn't already an addon for 5th axis capability. For that matter, I'm surprised the MX machines still rely on a stepper for their 4 axis functions. Granted I don't know a thing about the pinouts on the control board so maybe there's nothing left to plug in extra servos but I would think that adding two servos to the mix wouldn't be that huge of an undertaking. Then use something like the microarc to power a trunion table with a rotating platter and bob's your uncle. There's a guy in one of the facebook groups that has more or less done that. He has a manual selector that switches between his B and C axis so it's not a true 5 axis machine, more of a 3+2 but it does the job. A little integration into the source code and factory hardware would make it a complete solution.
    That said, given the price of the microarc, I would expect a setup like that to run pretty damn close to 10k which would certainly put it outside my budget for an addon. I see a lot of comments lately about the rising costs of tormach's which is certainly true but in my case, I bought a base machine with very few options and have been slowly adding to it over the past couple years. In the end I may have spent roughly what a Haas would have cost me but I did so in much more manageable chunks.
    I would like to see it happen though, if only because that would open up the possibility for homebrew 5th axis mechanics tied to the built in controller. I did this for my 4th axis and while it's no microarc, it does the job for the most part and only cost me a few hundred bucks and a couple days of fiddling. My machine isn't used to make money so that was a much better option than dropping 4-5k on the factory option.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Posts
    132

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    Given that Tormach's market is largely made up of people who don't have experience with any machinery, having a 5 axis machine sounds like a very good way for a lot of people to get in over their head, crash the machine, and then call tormach and say "why did the machine crash itself?". Even outside of that scenario, how many people would call them and expect tormach to literally walk them through how to program a 5 axis simultaneous part in Fusion 360 (which tormach doesn't even sell)?

    Live tooling for the lathe would be a better area for them to expand to, imo.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2151

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    As others have mentioned 5 axis programing would be a challenge. I'm guessing with 10k$ cam software it is a little more straight forward. Lower end cam products an experienced use would still struggle to get results. And support would also be a challenge. Recent thread here about a x,y, offset issue had dozens of responses for the reason and its 99% the user every time. I could not imagine a newer user trying to setup a 5 axis machine.
    Just to avoid tool, holder and spindle collisions with fixtures and machine axis would be time consuming with good cam products and experience, yet alone setup said project on the 5axis mill.
    As for machine I would think they could still sell a good medium size design like their mills, just to a more focused user.
    I come across one person that was building a small one on instagram. It had a ATC with a drawer for tool storage and some other cool stuff like enclosure.
    Hard to say by pictures but it looked cool. I was surprised it never showed up on cnc zone that I noticed anyway.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    653

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    5 axis milling appeals to people that want to design parts in 3D and just hit 'print' without worrying about setups and workholding and order of operations. If Tormach wants to be the machine for hobby makers, a small one makes some sense if they can get the programming and setup simple and cheap, but that last part is a bit of a heavy lift.

    Personally for prototyping / R&D work, a 5 axis mill might be nice, but there's not many job shops around that I can have do production runs, so I'd rather have a live-tool lathe or mill-turn from Tormach instead.
    That makes for a product progression too-- design/source a lathe spindle that indexes. Launch it in the lathe with some simple add-on live tools. Then move it into the mill...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2020
    Posts
    106

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    I watch so many videos on 5 axis....just amazing and I feel I'm missing out on an untapped axis or 2. It would open so many doors but I wouldn't even know how to approach in in say...Fusion360. I am assuming the personal/hobbyist version of F360 would even g there. Yean, it would be great if Tormach offered an affordable version, but you know they would have to skimp on a lot of other things, rigidity, work envelope etc. JUst like the 440 (what I have) is the most affordable of the line up, but real quickly I saw the limitations. Sometimes the limitation make some purchases not worth it. (I'm not saying for me and my 440, but you get what I'm saying?)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    591

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    Yes, you need a paid subscription for Fusion to do the 5D stuff.
    But if you pay for a full trunnion, or other 5D articulation, you could set aside enough subscription fees for the next 10 years as part of the purchase. At least in your mind...

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    591

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    I'm surprised there hasn't been a 5 axis version of the 770 or 1100 yet
    I think the reason is physics. You cannot make a rigid 5 axis trunnion machine with any kind of actual working envelope for $30,000.

    Each axis in that linkage (X and Y table, then trunnion and rotary) add significant stackup error in the tolerance chain, AS WELL AS additional mechanical loads that need to be accounted for.

    Just look at an 1100. Now consider putting another 200 pounds of trunnion on it -- would that work? (Hint: no, it wouldn't.)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    3063

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    Steve Simpson was making an add-on 4th axis (the InTurn) for a while and an early prototype trunnion for that which provided for 5-axis milling. He seems to have deleted any reference to the product on his web site but his YouTube channel still has some videos. It may be out of production. If so, too bad as it was a nice product - servo-driven spindle with a locking brake and an encoder for indexing. He'd done some work to interface it to the Tormach 1100 via Mach3 and maybe PathPilot.

    In the Sherline or Taig sized world, there is the Pocket NC, which is a small 5-axis mill in 10k and 50k spindle versions.

    https://pocketnc.com/

    They are reportedly working on a larger mill, ~300 lbs with a tool changer that will probably be 5-10x the cost of the Pocket NC. That may be released next year, but they are still refining the design, so who knows when it will be out. I'd really like to get one but would probably have to drive it with SprutCAM, which could be "trying".

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Posts
    8

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    Hello, yes, I'm exactly the client that needs a good vmc 5 axis on the thormach price range. 50k is my maximum budget. What are the possibilities ? The type of travels I need are around 550 (x) 400 (y) 300 (z). Any sugestions because I cant find anything decent online ...

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    42

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    I think it would handle a 200 pound trunnion ok. It's rated for 500 pounds.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    4281

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    Hi,
    I have built my own mill, travels 350mm x 350mm x 350mm, with 32mm diameter C5 ballscrews, cast iron axis beds, 750W AC servos etc. Its not a Tormach but broadly similar in terms of size, cost and weight.

    I'm building a trunnion fourth axis and fifth axis for it currently. Has two 750W servos, and two worm drive low lash (<2 arc min) high rigidity servo reducers (Atlanta Drives). To date has cost about
    $4000USD and probably about $4500USD when finished. It'll weigh, including the trunnion, about 55kg....so not insubstantial, but not heavy duty industrial grade either. My expectation is that its rigid enough
    to do soft materials like aluminum easily and do steel and stainless parts up to 10kg with care and patience.

    I have a Fusion 360 Machining Extensions subscription for CAM in addition to regular Fusion 360. It provides simultaneous four and five axis, collision avoidance , toolpath editing,.....all the bells and whistles.
    The cost (I'm renewing my annual subscription for the Machining Extensions by the end of the month) is $1768NZD (plus local tax) or $1078USD. Note this is discounted from about $1600USD/year normally.

    All in all, a fifth axis machine and the CAM to support it is not cheap. How many times have you heard a newcomer say 'I want four and fives axis' only to find they don't have the budget for a crappy entry level
    three axis machine let alone a credible four or five axis machine.

    Quite frankly I think the cost of the hardware alone is going to put off any tyre-kickers and other dreamers, and that leaves a small but hardened bunch of CNCers.
    My guess is that there is a small but robust market for decent hobby level four and five axis hardware and the associated CAM. I don't mean to suggest that we all like paying thousands of dollars
    for hardware and software.....but we will because we know the true cost of credible CNC gear. As I say a hardened bunch!

    Craig

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2023
    Posts
    436

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    Quote Originally Posted by musiccnc View Post
    Hello, yes, I'm exactly the client that needs a good vmc 5 axis on the thormach price range. 50k is my maximum budget. What are the possibilities ? The type of travels I need are around 550 (x) 400 (y) 300 (z). Any sugestions because I cant find anything decent online ...
    if you want to buy that, best try on alibaba, find something up to 40k and the rest will probably be shipping costs or find a used one locally and clean it.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    42
    Joeaverage, I think you summarized it quite well. I think a lot of people like the idea of a "do-everything Santa machine", where you put in a picture and your part magically gets made.

    But the reality of cost and complexity hits hard.

    Above all, it's a steep learning curve. 5 Axis is not entry-level work.

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post

    All in all, a fifth axis machine and the CAM to support it is not cheap. How many times have you heard a newcomer say 'I want four and fives axis' only to find they don't have the budget for a crappy entry level
    three axis machine let alone a credible four or five axis machine.

    Quite frankly I think the cost of the hardware alone is going to put off any tyre-kickers and other dreamers, and that leaves a small but hardened bunch of CNCers.
    My guess is that there is a small but robust market for decent hobby level four and five axis hardware and the associated CAM. I don't mean to suggest that we all like paying thousands of dollars
    for hardware and software.....but we will because we know the true cost of credible CNC gear. As I say a hardened bunch!

    Craig

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    42
    With the a steep user learning curve, I think Tormach would want to avoid producing Axis machines.

    Their target market is entry level. Their business model is providing a user-friendly operating system, and providing the support to allow entry-level people to become proficient.

    I believe that would make the customer support for 5 axis would be very taxing on their tech support team.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    4281

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    Hi,

    I believe that would make the customer support for 5 axis would be very taxing on their tech support team.
    I disagree, I think the price of the hardware alone will exclude newcomers....and really Tormach's support is limited to the hardware...and that's pretty straight forward.
    The CAM side is up to the user and should not haunt Tormach at all.

    I suspect the real reason is something like 'why should we invest tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars into designing and building a four/five axis unit when there is such
    a limited market?'

    Craig

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    4281

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    Hi,
    another issue that may not be apparent at first glance is the loss of Z axis travel.

    The 1100 has 413mm of Z axis travel. My fifth axis platter is 240mm above the bed of the mill. If this were placed on an 1100 the Z axis travel would in effect be reduced to 163mm.
    My own mill has a Z axis travel of 350mm, and the situation is even worse....but for the fact that when I designed the column I deliberately made it higher than need be so that WHEN I
    fitted my (always intended) fourth and fifth axis I could unbolt the Z axis bed and shift it upwards. I had allowed the Z axis to shift upwards by as much as 300mm. Now that my trunnion is nearly complete
    I've found I don't quite need that much, but I'm super glad that I have it.

    Trying to minimise the stack height of a trunnion table is a major design goal. Aside from loss of Z axis travel, the higher the stack the greater the bending moment which counts against rigidity.
    Jwatte posted earlier that stacking a trunnion on top of the bed counts against rigidity, so much so that he thought not possible, although I disagree with that, but certainly do concede the principle
    that stacking a trunnion on top of the table degrades the rigidity of the work holding.

    Craig

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    1753

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    The other option is to add a spacer in the Z column... I did this on my 440 prototype. (the machine had lots of issues and wasn't the supplier tormach went with) I added a good 5 inches of cast iron to it..





    Obviously - rigidity as has been stated..

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    4281

    Re: 5 axis Tormach, would you get one?

    Hi Samco,
    that is a good idea.

    My own column is made of steel, two large 'L' shaped pieces of steel 32mm thick. I can't split it open and insert a piece as you have done, but my column
    is taller and so I can shift the Z axis upward to get the same result.

    Craig

Similar Threads

  1. 5 Axis Machining on Tormach?
    By Viroos in forum Tormach Personal CNC Mill
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-15-2017, 04:23 AM
  2. TORMACH VS PROTOTRAK (3 AXIS)
    By diyengineer in forum Want To Buy...Need help!
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 02-25-2014, 08:17 AM
  3. Tormach PCNC 1100 Fourth Axis Table as a C Axis
    By CNC-Dude in forum Tormach Personal CNC Mill
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-08-2012, 12:49 PM
  4. Tormach 4 axis?
    By Gundawg in forum Tormach Personal CNC Mill
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-12-2011, 12:39 AM
  5. Tormach 4th axis
    By two4tom in forum Tormach Personal CNC Mill
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 02-16-2011, 03:18 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •