[Goemon]

In the UK. If you built a machine running 40A+ from a vfd on single phase at home...... You'd probably get shafted and fined!!!.

They won't even let you have EV chargers above 40A installed domestic.
Thank god I'd never touch one of those.

Who is "they"? Z Germans?

I don't remember seeing any VFD inspectors when I lived in the UK.

Have you seen an actual (official) list of rules for what VFDs people can use in their own home for cnc machines?

Or is the limit just what the electric car company can / will do?

My bet would be that if you asked 5 electricians they'd give you 5 different answers (while stiring their tea with a pencil and sucking air through their teeth).

I actually asked this question (or tried to) with the electric company where I live (in America) and the limit was only based on the available power.

The guy quoted something silly like an 88kw motor limit on my service.... so I just assumed he didn't know either...

Anyway, a 5.6kw / 7.5hp 24,000 20a motor is not particularly big or powerful. I'm nowhere near any limit.

My local hardware store sells 7hp shop-vacs that run off 1ph 110v...

In terms of what is "to code", it's probably best that those of us with Chinese VFDs never let any sort of inspector near them (regardless of size)....

[mactec54]

I know... But we're talking about VFDs for spindles...

Makes no difference they are not a phase converter, A VFD Drive, and a Phase converter are very different.

[mactec54]

I don't remember seeing any VFD inspectors when I lived in the UK.

There are many Code requirements for VFD Drive installations. not so much in the USA at this time. but all other countries have restrictions.

Have you seen an actual (official) list of rules for what VFDs people can use in their own home for cnc machines?

In reality VFD Drives, should not be used in a residential setting. but thousands do.

My bet would be that if you asked 5 electricians they'd give you 5 different answers (while stiring their tea with a pencil and sucking air through their teeth).

Ask an industrial electrician and he will give you the correct information, residential electricians would not know what you were talking about.

Anyway, a 5.6kw / 7.5hp 24,000 20a motor is not particularly big or powerful. I'm nowhere near any limit.

7.5Hp is powerful if it is setup correctly, running from single phase it will be wimpy.

My local hardware store sells 7hp shop-vacs that run off 1ph 110v...

NA is 120v not 110v

Do you really think that you are getting 7Hp using 120v /15A supply? do the math and you will see that this is imposable.

In terms of what is "to code", it's probably best that those of us with Chinese VFDs never let any sort of inspector near them (regardless of size)....

You might have no choice if there is too much dirty power on your line side, which you will have when using any VFD Drives and even more so when using a single-phase supply, they see it and find you this you can't hide from.

[RufusToad]

3 Phase VFD Drives run on Single Phase, all VFD Drives are made the same even the single Phase, the VFD Drive needs an input amp rating 2 times the output requirement, so if your motor is say 10A the VFD Drive must have an input rating of 20 plus Amps or it will not survive

So, what is the name plate rated Amps for your spindle and voltage???

Well I am going to assume that the plate means input220/380ouput? and the A on the plate is 19.2/11.3 so does that mean 19.2 @220v and 11.3 @ 380v??.
Isn't part of the function of these VFD's to convert single phase into 3 phase or am I missing something?? If it does convert this then is HP lost in the spindle power?
Just starting to learn about these motors and drives so did I miss on this? I purchased a kinda cheapy Huanyang VFD to get me started that is a 34a. I just want to get this hooked up and running correctly before I purchase an expensive VFD which I dont mind doing just a bit nervous getting started. Right now I am running a 2.5hp regular router that is using the SuperPID and I am not having good luck with it. I had all intentions of purchasing the spindle kit off of AVID CNC but their product support is terrible. I purchased everything I have now for 1/2 the cost and double the power so FINGERS CROSSED

[mactec54]

Well I am going to assume that the plate means input220/380ouput? and the A on the plate is 19.2/11.3 so does that mean 19.2 @220v and 11.3 @ 380v??.
Isn't part of the function of these VFD's to convert single phase into 3 phase or am I missing something?? If it does convert this then is HP lost in the spindle power?
Just starting to learn about these motors and drives so did I miss on this? I purchased a kinda cheapy Huanyang VFD to get me started that is a 34a. I just want to get this hooked up and running correctly before I purchase an expensive VFD which I dont mind doing just a bit nervous getting started. Right now I am running a 2.5hp regular router that is using the SuperPID and I am not having good luck with it. I had all intentions of purchasing the spindle kit off of AVID CNC but their product support is terrible. I purchased everything I have now for 1/2 the cost and double the power so FINGERS CROSSED

No, the VFD Drive is not converting the single-phase Ac power input into Ac 3 phase output. the output is PWM (voltage and current) it is not a sin wave form as the input is, if it was the same then it would be a phase converter, the name tells you what it is VFD Variable frequency Drive

That's not possible 220v input will never have a 380v output, what goes in is what you get out. check your spindle is for 220v or can be wired for 220v, if it is 380v then you have a problem.

Yes 220v 19.2A / 380v 11.3A

Is Hp lost, sure it is, (it's called derating) that is why it is pointless to buy a big Hp spindle unless you have 3Ph power to run it.

If you only had a 2.5Hp router then why did you go with a ridiculously overpowered spindle for your machine.

Do you have a 40A / 50A 240v supply to drive the new spindle?

[pippin88]

Impossible?
https://www.ato.com/220v-to-380v-vfd
http://www.ecogoo.com.cn/product/7-5...80v-output-vfd

[mactec54]

Impossible?
https://www.ato.com/220v-to-380v-vfd
7.5KW single phase 220v input 3phase 380v output VFDecogoo

Yes, Impossible He was talking about the spindle name plate amps, not the VFD Drive, try and understand what is being posted.

[Goemon]

Well I am going to assume that the plate means input220/380ouput? and the A on the plate is 19.2/11.3 so does that mean 19.2 @220v and 11.3 @ 380v??.
Isn't part of the function of these VFD's to convert single phase into 3 phase or am I missing something?? If it does convert this then is HP lost in the spindle power?
Just starting to learn about these motors and drives so did I miss on this? I purchased a kinda cheapy Huanyang VFD to get me started that is a 34a. I just want to get this hooked up and running correctly before I purchase an expensive VFD which I dont mind doing just a bit nervous getting started. Right now I am running a 2.5hp regular router that is using the SuperPID and I am not having good luck with it. I had all intentions of purchasing the spindle kit off of AVID CNC but their product support is terrible. I purchased everything I have now for 1/2 the cost and double the power so FINGERS CROSSED

Our spindles can be run on either 220v or 380v. If you look on the inside of the junction box (where you connect wires to the spindle), you'll see six screw terminals with some of them joined by copper connectors. They are connected one way for 220v and another if 380v is needed.

There should be a diagram on back of the cover showing you which it is wired for currently. If it's wired for 380v you need to change it to the 220v configuration. I can send you a pic of mine if you want to confirm how it should look.

The 19.2amp 220v is the one to go off (once it's configured for 220v).

Don't let anyone confuse you on the technical jargon. Almost everyone in the diy space uses their VFD to run a 3ph spindle from a single phase power source. Almost nobody in America has 3ph power at home.

The only practical difference for you is that the VFD needs to draw in more 1 phase amps to output the correct 3ph amps than it would if the power source was 3ph. So you "derate" the vfd.

In practical terms this just means you buy a larger VFD as they have components that can handle the larger number of amps on the input side.

The output rating of the VFD is actually less important for derating than the input rating. The problem is that a lot of VFD manufacturers don't advertise this number (which is why you see the generic "just double it" advice).

Some manufacturers do put the input rating on the label which is way more helpful for diy users . Like this 11kw Delta VFD is rated for 49a output but 58a input:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/29350608516...Bk9SR-LvlMy0Xw

If a manufacturer was specifically making a 5.5kw VFD to run a 5.5kw spindle from 1ph power, the rated output amps should be similar to a regular 5.5kw 3ph VFD but the rated input amps would be considerably higher.

E.g. Compare this 15hp /11kw 240v single phase Invertek VFD rated 45a (for $3700):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/23376434465...Bk9SR8Sahc60Xw

To this 15hp 240v 3ph Invertek VFD rated 46a ($1800):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/23376815068...3ABFBMyPWnzrRf

I've been using an HY GT VFD to run the same 5.6kw PDS motor for over 2 years now. That's at least 18 months longer than I expected it to last but it's still going strong.

The only problems I've had have been from user error.

The input rating on the VFD plate just states "220v single phase +/- 20%". So... there's some "trust" involved....

I've been told it's rated for between 40a and 49a on the input side (depending on who I ask) but I've never had any confidence in these "answers".

Anyway, let me know if you need the manual for your spindle. Aside from the electric fan everything else should be the same. I got my spindle direct from PDS America and they sent the manual on a USB drive in digital only so you may not get it from the ebay seller.

[Goemon]

Not that it matters now you already ordered your VFD but read this if you want more comfort on the running a 3 phase spindle from 1 phase power:

https://www.valinonline.com/blog/len...le-phase-power

It helped me when I was at the install stage and people were confusing me with conflicting info...

In America there are plenty are far larger motors sold to run off single phase power. 7.5hp is not that big. E.g. This 10hp single phase motor:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/27485204779...Bk9SR4644tG0Xw

Or this 15hp 1 phase motor.

There's a great many more running larger 3ph motors off 1ph power via a VFD. It's common practice (given the high cost of installing 3ph power for small businesses).

[RufusToad]

No, the VFD Drive is not converting the single-phase Ac power input into Ac 3 phase output. the output is PWM (voltage and current) it is not a sin wave form as the input is, if it was the same then it would be a phase converter, the name tells you what it is VFD Variable frequency Drive

That's not possible 220v input will never have a 380v output, what goes in is what you get out. check your spindle is for 220v or can be wired for 220v, if it is 380v then you have a problem.

Yes 220v 19.2A / 380v 11.3A

Is Hp lost, sure it is, (it's called derating) that is why it is pointless to buy a big Hp spindle unless you have 3Ph power to run it.

If you only had a 2.5Hp router then why did you go with a ridiculously overpowered spindle for your machine.

Do you have a 40A / 50A 240v supply to drive the new spindle?

Hi Mactec54,
I will try and answer some of the questions the best I can and you might see my confusion. I have had some issues with the router I have now which include me blowing out the Triac on the SuperPID board a few times. I was going to order a new SuperPID except it is made in Australia and right now its impossible to get this board plus I wanted to upgrade anyway so now is the time. A friend has the same AVID CNC table as I and he has an UGRA 3hp high torque spindle with a Delta VFD and I wanted to match it so we would have parts etc. if needed. I bought the entire set up from UGRA but 14 weeks have gone by and still zero product so I had to cancel my order and move on hence this post being started. After I canceled that order I went to AVID to purchase their 4hp Hiteco VFD plug and play kit except their sales support is absolutely terrible so I decided to go elsewhere. I am really wanting to cut aluminum so getting a higher HP spindle is very appealing to me and Geomon was kind enough to give me a few pointers. He pointed me to a brand new 7.5hp PDS spindle on ebay for $650 (normally $2500) and I jumped on it and then I bought a cheap Huanyang VFD just to start out with because this is a learning process for me right now and I know I can do damage to the VFD if not careful. When I get everything ready and set I will upgrade the VFD.

Yes I have more than enough power I can use.

So I emailed the support group for UGRA spindles to get a bit of information and this is one of my questions: I AM LOOKING FOR A SINGLE PHASE SPINDLE IN THE 3-4HP RANGE. IN THE DESCRIPTIONS OF THE VFD spindles it looks like they all say 220/380 3phase spindles. What am I missing?
His answer was: You are missing the VFD. "The VFD converts a single phase input into a three phase output". All spindles are three phase motors. Up to 2.2kW VFD can work on a single phase 220V, there are expensive 3.7 kW single phase input VFDs. All spindles above require three phase power.

This is why I am a little confused because he flat out suggests the VFD converts the single phase in into three phase out. I do know this guy sets up/configures all the spindles to the VFD's IF you buy the entire package from them so I figured he knew what he was talking about.


I know I am a little green on the VFD's but I will catch up. I am just starting to dip my toe in this lake and I am looking forward to learning as much as I can and I appreciate everyone's input.
Kind of a long winded answer but I hope you understand I have some confusion as to what the VFD actually does but what Goemon just posted below is starting to make sense. I assumed it converted to a 3ph and PWM'ed that but I think its just dropping the L3 leg input and picking back up out. I suppose that's why the derate?? Think I am starting to understand

[RufusToad]

Not that it matters now you already ordered your VFD but read this if you want more comfort on the running a 3 phase spindle from 1 phase power:

https://www.valinonline.com/blog/len...le-phase-power

It helped me when I was at the install stage and people were confusing me with conflicting info...

In America there are plenty are far larger motors sold to run off single phase power. 7.5hp is not that big. E.g. This 10hp single phase motor:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/27485204779...Bk9SR4644tG0Xw

Or this 15hp 1 phase motor.

There's a great many more running larger 3ph motors off 1ph power via a VFD. It's common practice (given the high cost of installing 3ph power for small businesses).

Thanks Goemon that is great info and starting to make sense. I just received the VFD today but again it was only $300 so I have no issues getting a bigger more dependable one and will keep this info to size the next one. Have you had any issues with yours?

[mactec54]

Hi Mactec54,
I will try and answer some of the questions the best I can and you might see my confusion. I have had some issues with the router I have now which include me blowing out the Triac on the SuperPID board a few times. I was going to order a new SuperPID except it is made in Australia and right now its impossible to get this board plus I wanted to upgrade anyway so now is the time. A friend has the same AVID CNC table as I and he has an UGRA 3hp high torque spindle with a Delta VFD and I wanted to match it so we would have parts etc. if needed. I bought the entire set up from UGRA but 14 weeks have gone by and still zero product so I had to cancel my order and move on hence this post being started. After I canceled that order I went to AVID to purchase their 4hp Hiteco VFD plug and play kit except their sales support is absolutely terrible so I decided to go elsewhere. I am really wanting to cut aluminum so getting a higher HP spindle is very appealing to me and Geomon was kind enough to give me a few pointers. He pointed me to a brand new 7.5hp PDS spindle on ebay for $650 (normally $2500) and I jumped on it and then I bought a cheap Huanyang VFD just to start out with because this is a learning process for me right now and I know I can do damage to the VFD if not careful. When I get everything ready and set I will upgrade the VFD.

Yes I have more than enough power I can use.

So I emailed the support group for UGRA spindles to get a bit of information and this is one of my questions: I AM LOOKING FOR A SINGLE PHASE SPINDLE IN THE 3-4HP RANGE. IN THE DESCRIPTIONS OF THE VFD spindles it looks like they all say 220/380 3phase spindles. What am I missing?
His answer was: You are missing the VFD. "The VFD converts a single phase input into a three phase output". All spindles are three phase motors. Up to 2.2kW VFD can work on a single phase 220V, there are expensive 3.7 kW single phase input VFDs. All spindles above require three phase power.

This is why I am a little confused because he flat out suggests the VFD converts the single phase in into three phase out. I do know this guy sets up/configures all the spindles to the VFD's IF you buy the entire package from them so I figured he knew what he was talking about.


I know I am a little green on the VFD's but I will catch up. I am just starting to dip my toe in this lake and I am looking forward to learning as much as I can and I appreciate everyone's input.
Kind of a long winded answer but I hope you understand I have some confusion as to what the VFD actually does but what Goemon just posted below is starting to make sense. I assumed it converted to a 3ph and PWM'ed that but I think its just dropping the L3 leg input and picking back up out. I suppose that's why the derate?? Think I am starting to understand

The information you are being told or looking at, is not totally correct and is more confusing than of any use to anyone.

I'm not going to answer everything, because it would not make any difference to the outcome, Geomon has led you up the garden Parth, as he has his own ideas with zero tech to help someone like you, he has done one install and had lots of problems with his install, so is not someone that you should take any notice of.

[mactec54]

Not that it matters now you already ordered your VFD but read this if you want more comfort on the running a 3 phase spindle from 1 phase power:

https://www.valinonline.com/blog/len...le-phase-power

It helped me when I was at the install stage and people were confusing me with conflicting info...

In America there are plenty are far larger motors sold to run off single phase power. 7.5hp is not that big. E.g. This 10hp single phase motor:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/27485204779...Bk9SR4644tG0Xw

Or this 15hp 1 phase motor.

There's a great many more running larger 3ph motors off 1ph power via a VFD. It's common practice (given the high cost of installing 3ph power for small businesses).

It just shows how little you know; or have learnt, the 10Hp single-Phase motor is 40A, this motor can't be run with a VFD Drive

A single-Phase motor can't be run with a VFD Drive. so enough of the confusing Bs.

[pippin88]

Mactec, learn to read.

He has posted single phase motors with large HP ratings. He has not said these are run off VFD.

[pippin88]

Yes, Impossible He was talking about the spindle name plate amps, not the VFD Drive, try and understand what is being posted.

You posted the following that I was replying to:

No, the VFD Drive is not converting the single-phase Ac power input into Ac 3 phase output. the output is PWM (voltage and current) it is not a sin wave form as the input is, if it was the same then it would be a phase converter, the name tells you what it is VFD Variable frequency Drive

That's not possible 220v input will never have a 380v output, what goes in is what you get out. check your spindle is for 220v or can be wired for 220v, if it is 380v then you have a problem.

That certainly reads like you are saying a VFD cannot have 220v input and 380v output.

[pippin88]

VFD / Motor power:

Power (watts) = volts x current

You have a spindle which will consume a certain amount of power (e.g. 3.8kw).

You need a VFD that is rated for 3.8kw or more.

The VFD input components must also be able to handle the current required.
It must also be rated for the correct voltage.

With three phase input, the current is spread over three phases - three conductors/components on the VFD input side.
Feed it single phase only and all current has to go through a single conductor / components on the VFD input side.

Single phase current is about 1.72 times three phase current.

Smaller VFDs, e.g. 2.2kw, are often rated (designed/sized) for single phase input, so you can use a 2.2kw "single phase input" VFD to drive a 2.2kw motor
(You can input 1 or 3 phase power to the VFD)
The VFD has been designed to handle the full current through a single input.

Larger VFDs have usually been designed for three phase input only, as large motors are usually located in industrial settings where three phase is standard. So they need to be de-rated (use a larger rated VFD) for single phase.

[dazp1976]

Well. It may be slightly different kettle of fish (I'm in u.k.) but my servo drive on single phase is 1.8kw. Rated for a 30A breaker, can peak at 56A!.
VFD's I've seen on sale inside the u.k. for single phase stop at 2.2kw (which could likely peak current of up to 60A+) and then go on to 3 phase.
You have to import more powerful stuff that can work on single.
It isn't just about what it's rated at, you need to consider bursts too.

I remember I had a large 1800w cross slide saw that would trip anything below a 25A breaker, Due to burst current.
However, if you got it started it would run constant no problems. Was resolved with a 32A swap.
VFD's, spindles and servos burst at a damn sight more.

TBH The main issue I recckon over here is the electric service cables coming in to residential are s**t. They aren't capable of coping well with much more than 80A in total.
My service fuse is 80A.
They don't really want anything over 2200w in use in case the crap wiring caches fire.

If you had to go through house insurance claim because of electrical fire and evaluator saw you had a high power VFD, you'd be voided and get nothing.
You likely wouldn't be able to get machinery insurance included in the first place without an expensive upgrade requiring street groundworks.

[mactec54]

You posted the following that I was replying to:



That certainly reads like you are saying a VFD cannot have 220v input and 380v output.

Not at all RufusToad was talking about Spindle name plate voltage 220v and 380v which is common, for larger Ac 3 phase motors to have more than one voltage that can be wired for either voltage

[mactec54]

Mactec, learn to read.

He has posted single phase motors with large HP ratings. He has not said these are run off VFD.

These posts are about 1Phase to 3phase and using a VFD Drive to power their spindles, 1phase motors have nothing to do with this and should not even be considered, as to what can be done / used in an industrial or farm setting.

[Goemon]

Mactec, learn to read.

He has posted single phase motors with large HP ratings. He has not said these are run off VFD.

Exactly. I was providing one example of why the statement "there's no point in larger motors if you don't have 3ph power" was not accurate.

Larger single phase motors wouldn't exist if they delivered no benefit over smaller ones.

And manufacturers and sellers of VFDs wouldn't bother offering advice on how to derate their products for use with 1 pH power. They'd just direct people to their 3hp (and lower) 1ph to 3ph VFDs.

But... almost all VFD manufacturers offer advice on derating for 1ph power for larger motors. E.g.

https://www.valinonline.com/blog/len...le-phase-power

More importantly, I'm not just expressing opinions. I currently own the same spindle motor as the OP and I use it almost every day from 1ph power using a VFD. And I use it for wood and aluminum - the same intended use as the OP.

So, I'm 100% certain that a 5.6kw PDS ADES 90 can be run off 1 ph power with the right VFD. And 100% certain that the OP got an awesome deal on a great spindle. It's actually the best deal I've ever heard of for CNC spindles.

Just as important, I'm 100% sure it's capable of doing a great for it's intended use.