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IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Spindles / VFD > Looking for a new spindle
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  1. #1

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    Looking for a new spindle

    Hi all, I am purchasing a new spindle for my cnc table. I bought a UGRA 4hp high torque spindle which I heard really good things about EXCEPT I purchased it over 11weeks ago and still have not gotten it. I have tried to contact the sales person and had zero luck so I am going to get my CC company to cancel the purchase. I am looking for a high torque spindle and would like to see if anyone has some experience with any GOOD spindles out there. I do not want anything real cheap and want to stay around the $1K area if possible but will go more. Would love some feedback on this??
    Would also love to find a spindle with the option of adding a tool changer later.

  2. #2
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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Their "high torque" label is a little misleading. They use it to describe their spindles that hit peak horsepower at 12,000rpm instead of at 24,000rpm. They have double the torque up to 12,000rpm but it's still a tiny amount of torque.

    At 12k you'd have 1.8 ft lb instead of 0.9 ft lb. It's nowhere near what you'd get on a small mill with a 2hp motor and a gear reduction.

    If you were planning to cut aluminum with large tools you'd end up stalling that spindle.

    Anyway, you have a number of options for around $1000. What do you plan to cut with it?

  3. #3

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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Hi Goemon,
    This is a GMT Air Cooled CNC Spindle 2.2kW 220/380V 18000 RPM High Torque S that I purchased.
    I plan to mostly cut wood but occasionally some aluminum and I mean occasionally.

  4. #4
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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Pls check the Link for the Spindle

    https://www.automationtechnologiesin...e/cnc-spindles

  5. #5
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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusToad View Post
    Hi Goemon,
    This is a GMT Air Cooled CNC Spindle 2.2kW 220/380V 18000 RPM High Torque S that I purchased.
    I plan to mostly cut wood but occasionally some aluminum and I mean occasionally.

    For wood and some occasional aluminum that spindle is fine as long as you don't need it to be quick.

    Despite it's label it's not a particularly powerful spindle though. You'd be limited to small tools especially for aluminum.

    When I cut aluminum with small tools (1/4") and wood with medium tools (1/2") it's usually north of 18,000rpm. The extra torque drops off above 12,000rpm on the spindle you ordered, so it's benefit is limited.

    This guy is selling some new 5.6kw PDS Adev 90 spindles on ebay. I have the electric fan version of this model (the ADES 90) and they are superior to any Chinese spindle.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/18509211113...Bk9SR_CqyKquXw

    I run mine off a 1ph 50a 240v circuit without any issues. They retail for over $2500 so $800 is a good deal for a new one.

    If you want something smaller then you should check out the Teknomotor brand spindles at DamonCNC. They're a level above the Chinese spindles but within your budget.

  6. #6

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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Thats really good info Goemon.. Thankyou!!

  7. #7
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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Hi. I just checked out the link for the eBay spindle and it looks like PDS has acquired Colombo Motors? Back in my "tech days" most of the industrial CNC's that I had installed, and repaired, had these spindles on them. I can tell you that they were very dependable for many years. If after 7 to 10 years there was a problem, most of the time it were the bearings, which can be expected. I am talking about machines running 16 hours per day, for 7 years. Back then these spindles around $6k. Not sure now they are PDS much has changed, but they still look exactly the same. I would never use a spindle made in China on my machine. My thoughts.

  8. #8
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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    PDS and Colombo are a different brand although PDS in America seems to do the distribution for Colombo.

    I'm not sure if they have the same parent company but they definitely have their own (different) models.

    The PDS ADEV 90 is comparable (in price and power) to the Colombo RV90 line. The PDS ADES 90 is comparable to the Colombo RS90.

    Having owned both an ADES 90 and an RS90, the PDS one is slightly better. It has duel Abec 7 bearings at both ends while my Colombo only had 3 bearings (two at the tool end).

    They are similar though. I'd be happy with either and go with whichever one I got a better deal on.

  9. #9

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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    This is great info guys. You have opened up a whole new world for me. I have decided to up my budget just because I am really thinking I might do a bit more with aluminum and I do NOT want a cheap spindle nor Chinese. I just looked at the Avid 4HP Hiteco plug and play kit but Avids support stinks and I hate to spend double for the name. I found the 8hp Hiteco for half what Avid wants and wonder if either of you had an opinion between Hiteco and PDS? They both look to be really good quality and well worth the cost. The same site with the Hiteco I found also has that PDS for $2500. Why is that one on ebay so cheap? If you are suggesting PDS is the equal to Hiteco I will be buying that spindle in the link Goemon provided tomorrow!!
    I will be honest I am a bit nervous about hooking this up to the smooth stepper and Mach4 and VDF so if you know anyone on this site that has PayPal and would be hirable to consult, PLEASE let me know. Thanks again for the info I am learning more about spindles!!

  10. #10

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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    One last question, do you prefer a certain VFD over another?

  11. #11
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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusToad View Post
    This is great info guys. You have opened up a whole new world for me. I have decided to up my budget just because I am really thinking I might do a bit more with aluminum and I do NOT want a cheap spindle nor Chinese. I just looked at the Avid 4HP Hiteco plug and play kit but Avids support stinks and I hate to spend double for the name. I found the 8hp Hiteco for half what Avid wants and wonder if either of you had an opinion between Hiteco and PDS? They both look to be really good quality and well worth the cost. The same site with the Hiteco I found also has that PDS for $2500. Why is that one on ebay so cheap? If you are suggesting PDS is the equal to Hiteco I will be buying that spindle in the link Goemon provided tomorrow!!
    I will be honest I am a bit nervous about hooking this up to the smooth stepper and Mach4 and VDF so if you know anyone on this site that has PayPal and would be hirable to consult, PLEASE let me know. Thanks again for the info I am learning more about spindles!!
    Hiteco, PDS, Colombo are all broadly comparable. Hiteco spindles are cheaper than PDS and Colombo, especially on the ATC side but I'd be happy with either.

    You can see how much they go for new (at a store) here:

    https://www.cncpd.com/product-category/spindle-motors/

    If all else is equal, go with the better deal. I'd have a slight preference for PDS as they have dual Abec7 bearings at both ends.

    You're unlikely to notice much difference in practice though, or have any issues. Their MTC lines are all entry level pro grade spindles designed to run all day every day in business setting.

    That PDS ADEV 90 on ebay is cheap because it's being sold by an individual vs it being new from a store. I.e. Someone bought it for a project that didn't happen.

    Spindles don't have much resale value as most businesses don't shop on eBay and most hobby users go with cheap Chinese spindles.

    For the VFD there are tons of options but (aside from special requirements like 800hz) it's a choice between cheap Chinese or expensive brand name.

    Brand name VFDs cost north of $1000 for larger spindles. If a VFD is not specifically designed to run run on 1ph (and output 3ph) you'll have to double the size.

    I.e. For a 5.6kw you'd want an 11kw Delta or Yaskawa VFD. An 11kw Delta VFD is $1100.

    The requirement is technically 1.7x but you don't see many 9.5kw VFDs. They seem to jump from 7.5kw to 11kw.

    In the cheap Chinese category they offer various 1ph in / 3ph out models in larger sizes. They still need derating (for the cheap Chinese factor) but you'll end up paying closer to $250 instead of $1000+.

    I run my 5.6kw 220v spindle using one of these HY VFDs:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/22279823776...3ABFBMnvTz4LJf

    They aren't the best but they work. If you don't need to save the cash, go with a Delta or some other quality brand. If you're on a budget, the HY is fine and it's not a bad place to save money IMO.

    Check out the chart on this listing for a 1ph in 3ph out VFD to get an idea of how many 1ph amps it needs to draw to output the required 3ph amps:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/26383788571...Bk9SR5yCv4iyXw

    If you need to draw 33a 1ph to run a 20a 3ph spindle then make sure the VFD is rated for at least 33a. A 20a vfd for a 20a spindle is only for people with 3ph power.

  12. #12

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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    WOW I didn't think I needed that much amperage to pull that single phase 7hp motor.
    I obviously don't know you but you do sound extremely knowledgeable on these systems and I am really wanting to learn more on them so with that I am going to take your advise and purchase that PDS on ebay you linked me. I had purchased a Delta 3hp VFD for the UGRA I bought and now have to cancel but that is way to small and would like to stay with Delta BUT the Huanyang you linked does have a 1yr warranty and 1/3 the cost. I am a bit nervous about setting this up and I am afraid I could damage it if I don't incorporate the correct setting so I think I will give it a shot and then move back to delta once I am comfortable unless the Huanyang works great then I will stick with it. I am far from rich but I do not want to skimp on this and have problems.
    Just out of curiosity does this PDS spindle have the capabilities of an automatic tool changer or am I reading the description wrong he posted?? "the ADEV 90 series automatic tool-change spindles are equipped with a cooling fan mounted directly to the spindle shaft"

  13. #13
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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusToad View Post
    WOW I didn't think I needed that much amperage to pull that single phase 7hp motor.
    I obviously don't know you but you do sound extremely knowledgeable on these systems and I am really wanting to learn more on them so with that I am going to take your advise and purchase that PDS on ebay you linked me. I had purchased a Delta 3hp VFD for the UGRA I bought and now have to cancel but that is way to small and would like to stay with Delta BUT the Huanyang you linked does have a 1yr warranty and 1/3 the cost. I am a bit nervous about setting this up and I am afraid I could damage it if I don't incorporate the correct setting so I think I will give it a shot and then move back to delta once I am comfortable unless the Huanyang works great then I will stick with it. I am far from rich but I do not want to skimp on this and have problems.
    Just out of curiosity does this PDS spindle have the capabilities of an automatic tool changer or am I reading the description wrong he posted?? "the ADEV 90 series automatic tool-change spindles are equipped with a cooling fan mounted directly to the spindle shaft"
    That PDS ADEV 90 is a manual tool change model. They do make an ATC version but it's closer to $10,000. The one in the listing is ER25.

    One upgrade you could make is switching the shaft fan for an electric for better low speed cooling though. This is the fan used in my ADES 90:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/19435024218...Bk9SR8jvhayzXw

    I initially ran my 7.5hp spindle from a 50 amp 240v circuit. If you only have a 30a outlet you should upgrade it.

    I certainly wouldn't call myself knowledgeable. I've just gone through the process you are going through now.

    Most of us who did a diy build felt confused by it all too but I got a lot of help from some great people here.

    Once you cut through the jargon setting up a spindle is actually quite simple. Instructions for the HY VFDs in particular are well documented in threads on this site.

    That's only necessary because of the pigeon English manuals they come with. You'd have a less confusing manual for a brand name VFD.

    I also got my HY VFD with the thought that I'd upgrade it at a later date. It's just about big enough. I'm thinking of giving this one a try when I upgrade to a more long-term solution:

    https://www.wolfautomation.com/ac-dr...3-phase-33386/

    I also found this deal on a Delta when I was searching for myself recently:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/17384480936...Bk9SR4SprKyzXw

    Worth considering given the good deal on the spindle. Maybe extra peace of mind is worth another $400...

  14. #14

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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Yep I will definitely be needing well documented instructions to hook this up I tossed out a $650 offer on that spindle and help settled for 675 so I think I did ok. I have struggled finding a VFD up to 10hp on a 220 single phase input. Both that you listed are 3ph input and will not work for me although I wish I could use it.
    I am going to give that HY a shot just to get rolling first then I will start looking for something better.
    Do you by chance control RPM with Mach software or by the VDF its self?

  15. #15
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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusToad View Post
    Y I have struggled finding a VFD up to 10hp on a 220 single phase input.
    And it's highly probable that you never will find one.

  16. #16
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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusToad View Post
    Yep I will definitely be needing well documented instructions to hook this up I tossed out a $650 offer on that spindle and help settled for 675 so I think I did ok. I have struggled finding a VFD up to 10hp on a 220 single phase input. Both that you listed are 3ph input and will not work for me although I wish I could use it.
    I am going to give that HY a shot just to get rolling first then I will start looking for something better.
    Do you by chance control RPM with Mach software or by the VDF its self?
    3 Phase VFD Drives run on Single Phase, all VFD Drives are made the same even the single Phase, the VFD Drive needs an input amp rating 2 times the output requirement, so if your motor is say 10A the VFD Drive must have an input rating of 20 plus Amps or it will not survive

    So, what is the name plate rated Amps for your spindle and voltage???
    Mactec54

  17. #17
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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Almost all VFDs are 3ph input even if they advertise 1ph in (or 1ph or 3ph in). That includes those HY VFDs.

    Almost any 220v 3ph VFD can be run on 1ph 240v. That includes the ones I sent you links for.

    Most in the diy crowd (myself included) use a VFD as a phase converter.

    What matters is if the VFD is large enough to handle the incoming and outgoing amps. That's why people derate a 3 phase vfd when running it off 1 phase.

    To output the 20a 3ph your spindle needs from a 1ph source the VFD will have have to draw 34a. That's why the VFD rating has to be larger than the spindle.

    If you had 3 phase power you could use a 5.5kw vfd for a 5.5kw spindle.

    The VFDs I sent you links for are both 15hp / 11kw 3ph so you can definitely use them to run a 7.5hp spindle from a 240v 1ph outlet.

    $675 is a fantastic deal on a brand new 7.5hp ADEP 90. It's a $1600 discount over the current retail price.

    Next you'll need 12awg 4 wire shielded flexible cable to connect the VFD to your spindle.

    It looks like yours is a newer model than mine but if the connections are all the same size you'll need an M20 x 1.5 cable gland too.

    I just bought one of these for myself and it's the only one I've found to date that actually fits the cable:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/401907458033

  18. #18
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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    Almost all VFDs are 3ph input even if they advertise 1ph in (or 1ph or 3ph in). That includes those HY VFDs.

    Almost any 220v 3ph VFD can be run on 1ph 240v. That includes the ones I sent you links for.

    Most in the diy crowd (myself included) use a VFD as a phase converter.

    What matters is if the VFD is large enough to handle the incoming and outgoing amps. That's why people derate a 3 phase vfd when running it off 1 phase.

    To output the 20a 3ph your spindle needs from a 1ph source the VFD will have have to draw 34a. That's why the VFD rating has to be larger than the spindle.

    If you had 3 phase power you could use a 5.5kw vfd for a 5.5kw spindle.

    The VFDs I sent you links for are both 15hp / 11kw 3ph so you can definitely use them to run a 7.5hp spindle from a 240v 1ph outlet.

    $675 is a fantastic deal on a brand new 7.5hp ADEP 90. It's a $1600 discount over the current retail price.

    Next you'll need 12awg 4 wire shielded flexible cable to connect the VFD to your spindle.

    It looks like yours is a newer model than mine but if the connections are all the same size you'll need an M20 x 1.5 cable gland too.

    I just bought one of these for myself and it's the only one I've found to date that actually fits the cable:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/401907458033
    You can't use a VFD Drive as a phase converter, it does not output a sin wave, so can't be used for anything other than powering an AC 3 phase motor
    Mactec54

  19. #19
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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    In the UK. If you built a machine running 40A+ from a vfd on single phase at home...... You'd probably get shafted and fined!!!.

    They won't even let you have EV chargers above 40A installed domestic.
    Thank god I'd never touch one of those.

  20. #20
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    Re: Looking for a new spindle

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You can't use a VFD Drive as a phase converter, it does not output a sin wave, so can't be used for anything other than powering an AC 3 phase motor
    I know... But we're talking about VFDs for spindles...

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