[ploktavo]

Hello Everyone,
I have a bachelors in mechanical and electrical engineering, currently working as a controls engineer with PLC's mostly siemens, but a lot of issues in my life have pushed me to get bank loans and ive been thinking the way to pay them is by starting a side business and grow it little by litte.
I have no experience with CNC machines or vertical millings, nothing, well just the basic that anyone would know just by looking at them, i learn quite fast and im very curious when it comes to software and hardware. To not make this post too long to read, Im just seeking advice on which machine to start with, I dont want to start with a manual vertical machine, i want to start with the classic CNC machining center where you can create something in the lets say Fusion software and then export it to the actual machine...(sorry but i still need to learn a lot of CNC terminology).
I have an eye on the Tormach 770M and keep growing it to servo motors as i grow my business.
The kind of parts i want to create are focused to the industry sector, as i said im not very familiar with going and selling parts etc, but of course little by little my knowledge would be wider... now my questions are:

1.- Is it easy to learn the basic cnc stuff with the 770M and can that machine grow to a more precise one (770M+) in the future?, are the step motors good enough ?
2.- What about the Syil ones ? and the Haas ones? are they good enough ?
3- Anyone has bought a CNC from China(alibaba), if yes, is it worth the money since you have to pay importating fees etc, are they any good?
4.- Can someone start from the garage and grow their business?
5.- what is the name of the provider of primary materials [In houston, tx specifically](aluminum cubes, steel cubes, plates etc)
6.- If i was to buy the Tormach 770M, what should i GET and what can i avoid getting to keep some money in my pocket, is the stand very necessary ? its like 2,000usd, I want to keep the machine as simple(cheap) as possible, but also as good as possible to make good quality parts...
7.- Are these machines loud to be working in a garage? i live in a residential area where my home owners association might be a pain in the ass if im loud...


Im sure i will have more questions but these are my main ones, Any advice would be really appreciated...
Also If anyone has PLC's of siemens questions (tia portal step 7) I can gladly help yall!!

Thanks for the time you guys took to read this post and i hope to receive some support from this community!

Thank you all!

[RussMachine]

You seem eager to jump into Machining, That's good, but be patient.
There's ALOT to learn. It takes years.
Machining isn't as easy as buying a machine, some fancy CAD/CAM software, pushing 'Cycle Start' and HOPING everything is correct.
(For example: You can't buy an airplane, push a button, and start flying right away).

I suggest learning some of the basics of Manual machining first.
You should have a grasp on feeds and speeds, different material cutting properties, and get a "Feel" for cutting metal.
A majority of the time, the feeds and speeds put out by CAM software needs adjusting from real-world manual machining experience.

There are ALOT of variables involved with every job.
How am I going to hold the part?
Fixturing? Vise? Clamps?
How rigid is my setup?
What is the material?
Plastic? Aluminum? Stainless? Inconel?
How weak is my machine? Horsepower? Torque?
Should I climb-cut, or Conventional cut?
Tap, or Thread mill?
How tight are the Tolerances?
How do I prevent chatter and warping?
etc. etc. etc.
There are literally hundreds of variables to consider with every job.

I would recommend going to the TITANS of CNC website, and/or watching HASS and TITAN CNC videos on Youtube, before throwing money at a machine and software.
Maybe take an intro course in Machining at a local College?
Machining takes ALOT of knowledge, and real-world learning.
Most of the guys here have YEARS of Machining experience and failures.

I don't mean to rain on your parade, but Machining isn't magic.
The machine and software don't make beautiful parts by themselves.
Do some learning first.
Good luck on your adventure.

[Al_The_Man]

I agree it is going to take a while to get up to speed, and also you are learning a new skill-set.
I would look into something that you are already skilled at and see if there is a market in your local area that you can get started in virtually right away.
By the time you have invested a reasonably large amount of $$$, you then have a fairly long period until you can provide a decent service.

[skrubol]

If you have this many questions, you've got a few hundred hours of research you're going to need to do before spending any money, especially if you're looking to pay off debt.

Honestly I'd recommend finding a side job or more traditional side-hustle (uber or whatever,) to pay off debt. You're looking at quite a while before you see any ROI depending on how much time you have to put into it.

Also, if you're interested in designing and manufacturing your own parts, rather than being a job shop, it may make more sense to start with a low-cost 3d printer and free CAD software. That way you have much less money tied up in equipment while learning CAD. If you do get past that point and end up getting a CNC mill, having a 3d printer can still be useful for basic fixtures and organizational stuff.

[toyoman]

If there are any machining jobs that you could do for your current employer on the side, that's where I'd start. Even if it is pretty basic, like drilling and tapping holes in a part or milling a simple slot. Look for low-tolerance work that isn't critical and beyond your capability. You will be earning more in knowledge than in actual dollars at first but after a few years, it could potentially lead to more complicated work that you will have the experience to do. It's not a necessity to learn manual machining first but look at the German apprenticeship model for example. Almost every one of their machining apprenticeships starts with the basics like how to use a file properly....then manual machine tools....then cnc machine tools.

[Jim Dawson]

Oh man, where to begin here. I could write a whole book on the subject. First let me say that I have been there, done that, even bought the T shirt. I also am a controls/mechanical engineer, as well as having over 50 years of machining and business experience. I also have a fully equipped commercial class machine shop with both manual and CNC equipment that is there when I need it. But most of my paying work is done on the computer these days. It used to be on the drafting table with a pencil and scale. Making chips is a hard way to make a living, the competition is pretty stiff.

Yes, you can absolutely grow a business from a garage. The machines can be noisy under some conditions, other times they are very quiet. Just depends on the particular operation.

Having a CNC machine does not magically create a money tree. Machine tools should be there to help provide a solution to a problem. If you have a problem that can be solved by using a machine tool then by all means get an appropriate tool.

In other words, sell solutions, not parts. If you have some specific parts/products in mind that there is a market for then buying a machine tool to produce those parts is a reasonable idea. All of my equipment was purchased, as needed, to provide a method of producing the parts needed for a specific project when I was not reasonably able to sub the work out. In many cases someone else can do it faster and cheaper than you can. The job pays for the machine, then you have it for the next project. My machines have paid for themselves many times over. Because I have to tools to work with, I can provide turnkey solutions for my customer needs.

To answer one of your questions, the normal work flow from idea to finished part is: CAD design, CAM processing, Post processing (to export the G-code), Machine setup, then you can push the green button and make parts. Most of the work is in the design phase. You mentioned Fusion 360, that is my preferred design/CAM tool.

Easy to learn? Yes. 10 years ago I couldn't even spell CNC. I would say easier than trying to learn Step 7, what a PITA, I haven't' touched one of those for about 15 years.

I should note here that 90% of my equipment was purchased used. Never buy new unless there is no other option, sometimes you can buy used equipment at scrap prices. As a controls engineer, you should have no problem retrofitting an older machine tool with new controls. You are way early to be thinking about steppers vs. servos. Both work, but servos are an order of magnitude above steppers performance wise, there is really not that much cost difference between quality steppers and servo systems today. But on a Tormach there may not be a huge performance difference in either case.

There is a lot of good advice from other posters above. You have some homework to define exactly what it is that you want to accomplish.

[awerby]

It sounds like you've got more plans to spend money than to make it. That's a lot easier to do, but it won't pay off your debts, it will multiply them. You can figure on spending as much on tooling and accessory machines as on your mill. Taking some of your questions in random order -

Yes, these machines can be pretty loud when the tools are removing material. Visit a machine shop during working hours to get an idea of how loud they are.

Yes, you absolutely can start a business in a garage and grow it - Hewlett and Packard's little enterprise is the most famous example I can think of.

People have bought machines directly from China, but it can be a nightmare - there are plenty of sad stories on this site if you look for them.

Haas machines are better than Tormachs, but they cost more. I'm not sure where Syil fits in, but at least they do the importing for you.

Stepper based machines can do useful work, but servos are generally faster and more powerful. If you're working by the hour, this becomes an important factor.

There's a lot to learn about machining if you don't know it already, CAM programs range from the fairly simple to the extremely complex. And producing CAD models of machinable parts is a whole field in itself. If you already know how to do that, there's a strong case to be made for spending your money on software rather than hardware, and concentrating on this part of the business, which isn't as likely to bring down the wrath of your HOA upon you.

As people in this thread have already told you, machining is a hard way to make money. Machinists in the USA are some of the poorest-paid workers in our economy, considering their skill level, and our job shops are quite competitive on large orders. The only chance you as a tiny shop have of getting any work is by going after the small jobs they don't want to do. Doing them will be a learning experience for you - you'll find out why they didn't want to take these jobs themselves. The alternative is to design a product of your own that you think will sell, and at least make your own prototypes, even if you ultimately decide that sending the production out makes economic sense.

[shred]

As people in this thread have already told you, machining is a hard way to make money. Machinists in the USA are some of the poorest-paid workers in our economy, considering their skill level, and our job shops are quite competitive on large orders. The only chance you as a tiny shop have of getting any work is by going after the small jobs they don't want to do. Doing them will be a learning experience for you - you'll find out why they didn't want to take these jobs themselves. The alternative is to design a product of your own that you think will sell, and at least make your own prototypes, even if you ultimately decide that sending the production out makes economic sense.

I did this. Turned a hobby machining into a small garage business designing and making specialty parts. It takes a lot of time and work, ideally some seed money and a niche you can compete in before the knockoff-artists invade. There are a million things you don't know you don't know, and most of them are on the business side. At least half and probably more of your time will be spent doing business-things, rather than doing anything "useful", so if you can get some education there it will be a huge help.

[mactec54]

Having a Bachelor's in mechanical and electrical engineering, gives you a head start, and you will breeze through the software and controls, that are used on this level of startup, a Tormach is ok, but it will need a good stand / solid base to be mounted on, you can make this if you had too, it would need to be as good as the factory base though, first get up to speed with your Cad and Cam then your machine, once you have setup a few jobs, you will be doing it in your sleep.

[soofle616]

I'm about two years ahead of you on essentially the same path and with essentially the same background. I can tell you that after two years, I make better parts on my tormach than the machinists who work at my day job make on the Haas and Doosans. I also make worse parts than they do. It's not (just) the machine, it's also the programmer, setup person, and operator, it's also the tooling, and the fixturing, and the environment. All of it matters at some level. When I'm "on" I crank out parts and they are within a couple thou of nominal and to each other cycle after cycle. When I'm off, things break... quickly. Sometimes my machine is quite enough to have a conversation on the phone while it's running. Other times, it screams like a banshee that just stepped on a pile of legos. I got into this primarily to work on my own projects but I always had the plan to use it to make some money on the side. Two years in, I've learned more than I can sometimes believe but the most important thing I've learned is that making money in machining is a lot more involved than having the machine. When you make parts for yourself, it's easy to overlook imperfections based on your specific needs for the part. When you build for a customer, your opinion of good enough no longer matters.

FWIW, I'm not looking to discourage you at all. What you want to do is possible but as others have said, you need to go into it with a plan to make money that is more nuanced than just buy the machine, learn to run it, make money. I don't know the 770 specifically, my experience is with the 440 and 1100 but I assume it's equally as good as either of them. Work within it's limitations and it can make very good parts. Definitely plan to spend a lot of money learning and getting good though. I've broken countless tools, ruined tons of raw material and nearly finished parts, crashed tool holders, etc. etc. all in the name of learning. Today I have a pretty solid grasp on most of what I need to do but every time I think I have this machining thing figured out, a new part comes my way that breaks my brain trying to figure out how to set it up and the learning process continues on.

[joeavaerage]

Hi,

In other words, sell solutions, not parts. If you have some specific parts/products in mind that there is a market for then buying a machine tool to produce those parts is a reasonable idea.

Lots of good and hard earned advice in this thread, but none better than this quote.

I repair automotive instruments and increasingly have to design electronic circuits to repair and/or retrofit instruments. I made my first mini-mill years ago mainly to make circuit boards, as a hobby.
Over a period of time its become essential to my work and I've built a much more capable machine is response to the demand. I still get a lot of satisfaction as a hobbyist...but its making
custom electronics and circuit boards that pays the bills. So my hobby has evolved into a business because of customer demand, and its a field that I enjoy, am good at and have no real competition.

Per Jims quote, focus on the parts/products/solutions for which you are uniquely qualified and motivated to supply to customers. That will determine what machines if any you can afford and
whether a machine can make money for you.

You may be familiar with the quote "he made a small fortune......out of a large one!'.

Craig

[webphut]

All the comments here are golden and pretty much spot on. I would recommend going to work as a helper at an organized machine shop. I do not mean union organized, but a machine shop that is safe. Most machine shops when busy are usually chaotic when first walking into them. With your education, this may work against you, but talk to the owners or hiring supervisors/managers. You will learn a lot just from emptying chip bins and keeping a shop floor swept. You will move up to learning how to debut parts. This is a way under talked about knowledge in any fabrication trade. At some point you will be taught set up and breakdown. You survive up to this point and chances are likely you will be sent to a beginner machining technology class or maybe an apprenticeship. At which point you still just keep your eyes and ears open. Ask questions, but never say how to do something, unless you are asked for your opinion. Eventually you will be called upon to run a program. My experience has almost always been when someone is out sick and or not at work. Anyways, usually, it’s not by design, but dumb luck is thrown into the lions den of running a program. It’s most time an oh chit moment for the shop and then heads look downhill. Guess what? You are at the bottom of that hill. Time to shine, but stay humble.