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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > CNC "do-it-yourself" > Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!
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  1. #1
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    Exclamation Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Hi everyone, long time listener, first time poster.

    I have been designing my own CNC rigid gantry machine to cut metal with. I've really latched onto the idea of making it out of granite surface plates as they have many benefits for machine rigidity and accuracy. I've already acquired the surface plates and the idea is make a couple cuts to have have 3 pieces for the uprights and gantry, and then attach them to the base.

    The construction method is use epoxy to glue the granite slabs together and restrain them with screws. It will save me a lot of typing to just say that if you've seen Piotr Fox's videos on his granite machine, you'll understand the concept.

    Let me get to the design in progress. I've had many iterations to get to this point and this is clearly unfinished but I need some guidance from here:




    FIRST, let me say this: I am thinking I want two ballscrews on the Z table but what you see is two possible locations for them, so both would end up in the same position obviously. So why those positions and not one in the middle?

    I'm trying to make the construction as simple as possible at this stage, and I'm not totally sure about having pulleys with long belts and their effect on accuracy, so I'm trying to keep belts as short as possible. What is not shown is the mounting plates for the motors but you can see that the motor, ballscrew mount, and end of the bottom granite slab all line up on the same plane and it would be easy to make a mounting plate to tie them all together.

    If you have any thoughts on one location or the other for the Z table ballscrews, or on why I should just go for a single ballscrew in the middle with a long belt to the motor on the edge, then please share.

    The second part I'm having a rough time with at this point is the top ballscrew for the X axis. From a construction standpoint this is the easiest solution but it does bother me that it is a single ballscrew and it's outside the two linear rails. I'd like some reassurance that it would be fine, but if it's likely to be a problem then I'll work to move it to it's proper location, but the compromise there would likely be that I'd have to move the X plate further out with some riser blocks to make clearance for the ballscrew underneath. I may be able to make a cutout in the 1 inch thick X plate to fit it though.

    Here's a shotgun blast of info:
    These are 16mm ballscrews and I'm a little worried they might be too small for their intended purpose. Furthermore those are 20mm linear rails, and Nema 23 motors (already have these also). The base slab is 36 x 24 x 4 inches. The side slabs are 24 x 7.5 x 3 inches. The gantry slab is 24 x 9 x 3 inches which gives me 7 inches of rails separation there. As it is, there is a little more than 8.5 inches of clearance between the bottom of the gantry to the table, 22 inches of X travel, and 18 inches of Y travel but I could accommodate more travel there if I let the plate go beyond the edges of the base slab.

    This is my first custom build. Please be gentle!

  2. #2
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShot View Post
    Hi everyone,



    This is my first custom build. Please be gentle!
    Howdy, I like your approach of using surface plates.
    No answers on the ballscrew questions, but I am puzzled with your decision to hung the X axis instead of it resting on the raisers. The thing is, you have a hefty spindle, you will probably end up pushing this machine to drill some holes and that will require pecking, which you will want to do rather fast.

    I would rethink your design and make a shoulder on the raisers and have the X axis sit on the shoulders. Downside is that you need a longer granite block for the X and you also need to get in to machining of the raisers to accommodate the shoulder. The benefit is that you will most likely eliminate the possibility of having your joint failure. And we have not talked about machine crashes at this point, they do happen.

    How to simplify the shoulder?
    Maybe you can cut rough and inaccurate shoulder. Leave trenches for filling up with levelling epoxy. Adjust the geometry with fasteners and whatever adhesive you decide to use. Create epoxy trap with a painters tape or something better suited for the purpose and flood the shoulders with epoxy. That imho should provide much better construction.

    Enjoy the build!

  3. #3
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeljkoM View Post
    Howdy, I like your approach of using surface plates.
    No answers on the ballscrew questions, but I am puzzled with your decision to hung the X axis instead of it resting on the raisers. The thing is, you have a hefty spindle, you will probably end up pushing this machine to drill some holes and that will require pecking, which you will want to do rather fast.

    I would rethink your design and make a shoulder on the raisers and have the X axis sit on the shoulders. Downside is that you need a longer granite block for the X and you also need to get in to machining of the raisers to accommodate the shoulder. The benefit is that you will most likely eliminate the possibility of having your joint failure. And we have not talked about machine crashes at this point, they do happen.

    How to simplify the shoulder?
    Maybe you can cut rough and inaccurate shoulder. Leave trenches for filling up with levelling epoxy. Adjust the geometry with fasteners and whatever adhesive you decide to use. Create epoxy trap with a painters tape or something better suited for the purpose and flood the shoulders with epoxy. That imho should provide much better construction.

    Enjoy the build!
    Thanks for your fast feedback! It took me a few minutes to understand what you were saying but now I get it!

    Yes the way I opted to mount the gantry between the risers does look like it could drop out because I am not finished with the small parts of the design. I have not included the bolts that will secure the gantry as well. I'm thinking 3 large bolts on either side of the gantry. That combined with the large surface area of 9 x 3 inches on both sides that I will use a strong bond epoxy on should be enough to handle all the loads. I really think that it will be unmovable.

    I went for this to get the most X travel. If I were to mount the gantry on top of the risers then because I don't have a longer piece for the gantry, I would need to bring the risers in by putting them on top of the bottom slab. This would take 6 inches of travel from the X dimension. It just seems like a lot to lose.

    Some more benefits of that design are I would have a flatter mounting surface that I could expect for the entire length of the rails, and I could get more Z height with that design, but I'd have to be careful because if the Z plate gets too long then I lose a lot of rigidity when I have to reach down to the table.

  4. #4
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    I like granite surface plates. Too bad you already went and got the granite without being 100% sure of your build, not much you can do now.

    I made a similar concept to yours in my thread(latest post) https://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-d...-concepts.html

    I think you could switch your frame to the double column raising gantry I posted about, you'd get a considerably better stiffness and you could make the X axis even longer than what's possible now if that's what you want(for the atc for example). Download the .step and have a look around.

    Also that spindle, I hope you didn't buy that S30 yet?

  5. #5
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by ardenum View Post
    I like granite surface plates. Too bad you already went and got the granite without being 100% sure of your build, not much you can do now.

    I made a similar concept to yours in my thread(latest post) https://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-d...-concepts.html

    I think you could switch your frame to the double column raising gantry I posted about, you'd get a considerably better stiffness and you could make the X axis even longer than what's possible now if that's what you want(for the atc for example). Download the .step and have a look around.

    Also that spindle, I hope you didn't buy that S30 yet?
    Yes I did see your thread last night! I liked it a lot! I should have been going to sleep but then I watched the three videos from Faggan on his granite CNC build. I had not seen that one before. I like his covers on his gantry. I may take that idea. Interestingly I had made a nearly identical frame design to his when I was coming up with concepts, with the risers extending to the rear of the machine past its base. It is a good design, but in the end I moved past it in favor of a rigid gantry design to start at a point with the greatest likelihood of high rigidity.

    I liked the moving double column design as well. Very attractive! It is within the realm of possibility for me. I worry a little about moving that much weight and trying to get some appreciable speed from it. I'm interested to know why you say the stiffness would be so much better. I am of the thinking that rigid gantry is the strongest because the X and Y axes are basically bound together. Only the Z axis passes through two sets of linear rails. Currently the most appealing part of a moving gantry to me is the ease of a tool-changing and the increased work space, but when the Z axis sticks out so far from the gantry a lot of Y travel is lost there too, closing the gap further between the moving gantry and rigid gantry designs.

    I did buy the granite plates already because there was a significant sale price when I bought them. I convinced myself then that I was sure of the design, but maybe I did jump the gun. I'm not incapable of purchasing another if it would solve a lot of problems. No big deal if I end up with an extra surface plate in my shop. What I have is a 36 x 24 x 4 inch size and a 24 x 24 x 3 inch size. The only reason to purchase another would be for pieces that need to be longer than 24 inches, So that would require me to get another 36 x 24 x 4 inch size. I worry about working with the weight of it. I made the excuse for the one I have that I should only need to move it once. It is over 400 pounds: twice the weight of the 24 x 24! I would be cutting it into pieces but they would still be very heavy to work with.

    And yes, I did buy the FM30 already. It is currently on another machine but is probably overkill for it. Are you referring to the lower priced options on the Ali sites?

  6. #6
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Another thing to mention, I did start out thinking that the granite plates would have sides that would mostly be flat and square, probably not to the thousandths or microns of the top surface but maybe hundredths or 10s of microns. Well now that I have them and checked them with a machinist's square, the worst spot I've found on the edge is maybe a millimeter out of square from the surface. So relying on those for accurate mating surfaces is out the window and some additional work will likely be required.

    Additionally the flatness of the surface does not go all the way to the edges and very slightly rolls off maybe a half inch before the edge, although I do not think this will be as much of an issue since most work will not be done at the very edges of travel for the machine.

  7. #7
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    The man benefit of granite plates is that you can lap them yourself which is much cheaper than having to send casts to a company to machine surfaces for you.

    The Z axis is the weakest point of this design, the lower it goes the less stiff it becomes. In a raising gantry, having the spindle mount directly on the bridge the stiffness is equal throughout its travel. Speed is not an issue because most of the machining is done on the XY plane, Z direction is also much stiffer. Some of us have done basic FEA on this design, check peteeng milli thread. A double column raising gantry scored the best in stiffness. If you have concerns about moving the bridge up and down you can upscale the ballscrew by a size, you have space for that because they would mount on the sides.

    FM30 is overpriced in my opinion, for the same price you can get a SAB150 from olispeed. https://www.olispeed.com/electrospin...change-tool-2/ it packs a punch and at least the manufacturer doesn't hide the torque curves.

  8. #8
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by ardenum View Post
    The man benefit of granite plates is that you can lap them yourself which is much cheaper than having to send casts to a company to machine surfaces for you.

    The Z axis is the weakest point of this design, the lower it goes the less stiff it becomes. In a raising gantry, having the spindle mount directly on the bridge the stiffness is equal throughout its travel. Speed is not an issue because most of the machining is done on the XY plane, Z direction is also much stiffer. Some of us have done basic FEA on this design, check peteeng milli thread. A double column raising gantry scored the best in stiffness. If you have concerns about moving the bridge up and down you can upscale the ballscrew by a size, you have space for that because they would mount on the sides.

    FM30 is overpriced in my opinion, for the same price you can get a SAB150 from olispeed. https://www.olispeed.com/electrospin...change-tool-2/ it packs a punch and at least the manufacturer doesn't hide the torque curves.
    My mistake! I thought you were referring to the one in your 7th post in that thread. I thought you said "raised" gantry and not "raising" gantry. Now I see you were referring to you the one in your first post.

    Yes the concept of the raising gantry is something I've been aware of and I really do like the advantages of it. If there is one major direction change that I make in my design that would likely be to go with a raising gantry. The reduced X travel would be a worthy trade-off for the increased rigidity at all Z heights. I am currently spinning up possible designs to think about in this direction, but don't want to pull attention away from the initial design and the questions posted here yet.

    I had not come across Olispeed spindle motors before in all my searches. I guess I should have focused my searches more on CNCzone. Those are some beefy motors for sure! As a buyer, it would be nice if they posted their pricing out in the open though.

    The biggest thing I think I'm missing with the FM30 at this point is that I can't link it to a positional encoder for rigid tapping. There was mention of it in some of the documentation that was provided to me but when I asked I was told it wasn't provided at the time. I'm not sure of the best way around it but there are some bit holders that have some amount of allowed movement in the Z axis so that rigid tapping wont destroy anything if the movements aren't perfect.

    The FM30 pricing was hard to swallow (as are many components of this CNC build), so much so that I don't think I would buy one again when there are the Ali site ones like the JGL-80 for around 1.5K to 2K, and even some others that are sub-1K.

    When I bought the FM30 I was thinking a solid, accurate spindle is one of the most important components since it's basically the interface between the machine and cutting the material...

    Ugh! I can't find it now but there was a site where this guy put a ton of effort into making a large accurate and rigid machine made of square and rectangular steel tubing. He didn't even weld it. He bonded the tubing with epoxy that was doped with metal powder to keep from adding heat stress to the metal. The metal powder also made the epoxy more rigid. He made the rails accurate to within 10 microns, maybe less over what was like a 4 x 8 foot table. He used ground ballscrews. The work looked time consuming and the cost of components was quite high!

    All that and then I kid you not, he put what looked like a common wood router on it and was getting nice finishes with no visible chatter and only light machining marks, and his locating pins were getting slip fit tolerances. Blew my mind! A wood router!

  9. #9
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!


  10. #10
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    The biggest problem I see with that design is the Z axis. You've made it rise up way past the gantry, but this doesn't get you any usable travel, unless you're planning on machining foam with extremely long tools. If it was half as long, it would work just as well with normal tools, and be more stable. Raising the rails up a little on all the axes would allow you to position the ball screws between them, which would work better. Using dual motors on the X axis is something people do to avoid the "stuck drawer" effect which happens when you push a sliding stage off-axis, as you seem to be doing throughout this design.
    Andrew Werby
    Website

  11. #11
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    The biggest problem I see with that design is the Z axis. You've made it rise up way past the gantry, but this doesn't get you any usable travel, unless you're planning on machining foam with extremely long tools. If it was half as long, it would work just as well with normal tools, and be more stable. Raising the rails up a little on all the axes would allow you to position the ball screws between them, which would work better. Using dual motors on the X axis is something people do to avoid the "stuck drawer" effect which happens when you push a sliding stage off-axis, as you seem to be doing throughout this design.
    Ya I should have mentioned it but that's a bit of a remnant of me trying to do different automatic toolchanging strategies.

    Here's a couple of examples:




    Ideally I'd like to have the ability to use a 4 inch long bit so having additional Z travel helps with that. Most likely I'll rarely use more than 2 inches of stickout, but the extra Z height will also give me room for vices or a 4th axis.

  12. #12
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    First one ATC will drive you nutts and not need for that type and 2nd one is alot better only you have x ansd z alignment but no y or what ever the axis are giving you a problem trying to keep it in proper alingment ------------

  13. #13
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Ya I somewhat gave up on the carousel type. It would work but it's kind of clumsy. From where it is under the gantry, the tool has to be pulled right, then up and over a potentially large workpiece before it could resume cut. Not the end of the world, but clumsy and kind of ugly.

    On the second one there is a bit of an arc in the Y direction, but I've seen some examples of a tool rack with no "claws" and they just basically drop the toolholders into holes. That's what I have there with the back of the hole cut out so when the toolholder nut is clear of the toolrack hole, then the rack swings forward and the tool itself passes through the cutout.

    I do think the second one ended up pretty simple, especially when the plan would be to have a spring at the bottom of the arm pulling it so that the arm is normally angled forward about 30 degrees, then have a part coming off of the Y table that hangs down there and hooks onto the bottom of the arm when the table is at its full outward travel and brings the arm into position for the tool change. No additional system movement system required.

    But if I'm honest, and now that I'm past the euphoria of designing a novel approach, a simple rail sliding version of the second one is probably best. It would just need simple rails and a piston and an air supply that I would already have for the toolchange.

    Quote Originally Posted by lshingleton View Post
    First one ATC will drive you nutts and not need for that type and 2nd one is alot better only you have x ansd z alignment but no y or what ever the axis are giving you a problem trying to keep it in proper alingment ------------

  14. #14
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    I have seen alot of machines over 37 yrs and maching and some work and some dont --------I worked on a Granite Router machine 8 ft by 4ft recently and I had Z vertical and x and y were on the same axis carriage -------------That means it could go like you said and pick up from the end of the table and had around ten tools -----worked really well -----Look around at what has been tried already -------------ATC with all three axis being able to adjust throught the control so much easier ---------Take alook at Ziess CMM as they maybe for measurments but the Axis and ATC work really well together in their configurations

  15. #15
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Ya that is the simplest method for toolchanging, which works really well on moving gantry machines especially when you have a lot of table space.

    I can of course mount the toolrack to the table on my rigid gantry machine, but that would directly take up some of my workspace and if I use the tool forks then there is additional space needed due to having to pull the tool out in a horizontal direction.

    The Datron Neo has a toolrack at the back of its moving table, and it's a rigid gantry style machine too. It has a different tool changer that may be made by them. It drops the tools into pockets but there is also a locking mechanism involved. The Neo also has a cover over the tools that is closed during the milling to prevent chips from getting on the tools. The cover flips up during a tool change.

    Like I said that is probably the easiest method but the size of my machine limits how many tools I can put on the table and then it also directly takes up the usable space for the actual work. I'd like a system that moves the tools out of the way of the work, and can support a lot of tools.

    Quote Originally Posted by lshingleton View Post
    I have seen alot of machines over 37 yrs and maching and some work and some dont --------I worked on a Granite Router machine 8 ft by 4ft recently and I had Z vertical and x and y were on the same axis carriage -------------That means it could go like you said and pick up from the end of the table and had around ten tools -----worked really well -----Look around at what has been tried already -------------ATC with all three axis being able to adjust throught the control so much easier ---------Take alook at Ziess CMM as they maybe for measurments but the Axis and ATC work really well together in their configurations

  16. #16
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Hey I was reading your response again and have a couple questions.

    You say you worked on a Granite Router, and I'm wondering if you meant the machine was made of granite like the one I'm designing, or did you mean the machine was made to cut granite? If it was made to cut granite I'd like to know what milling and drilling bits are best for cutting the granite if you know.

    I got a saw and blade to cut granite with but I keep thinking it would make my design better if I could make pockets in some places mainly for the motors to set into.

    And I tried to look up the Ziess CMM but I didn't see any that seemed to be equipped for ATC, so I'm not sure how their design is implemented. If you have something that shows it can you link it to me?


    Quote Originally Posted by lshingleton View Post
    I have seen alot of machines over 37 yrs and maching and some work and some dont --------I worked on a Granite Router machine 8 ft by 4ft recently and I had Z vertical and x and y were on the same axis carriage -------------That means it could go like you said and pick up from the end of the table and had around ten tools -----worked really well -----Look around at what has been tried already -------------ATC with all three axis being able to adjust throught the control so much easier ---------Take alook at Ziess CMM as they maybe for measurments but the Axis and ATC work really well together in their configurations

  17. #17
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonShot View Post
    If it was made to cut granite I'd like to know what milling and drilling bits are best for cutting the granite if you know. I got a saw and blade to cut granite with but I keep thinking it would make my design better if I could make pockets in some places mainly for the motors to set into.
    best thing to have while cutting granite is running water or a waterpool around the hole you're drilling

  18. #18
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Ya I'm going to need to probably do a waterpool for drilling the holes on the top surface. I might have to rig up some kind of squirter to drill holes on the sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by ardenum View Post
    best thing to have while cutting granite is running water or a waterpool around the hole you're drilling

  19. #19
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Ok I'm back. I've been going down the Rising Gantry road and reached a good point to share.




    I got over my self-imposed limit of keeping all the parts tucked into the frame's footprint, and reduced some complexity by removing the need for gears and belts.

    So there are few things that need further input. As you can see the Y table and X plate are both off of the bearing blocks. That is because the plates are sitting on the ballnut and it will probably end up in that position. I'll need to make spacers for the bearing blocks and then I'll need to mill out the underside of the plates of the side of the motors to get the full range of movement. The motor mounts have an FK12 bearing and it also sits taller than the mount for the ballnuts.

    I could also use a more normal BK12 ballscrew mount and then make a motor mount out of a single plate mounted to the edge of the granite and if I don't plan to have the travels go beyond the motors then I wouldn't have to do any underside milling as the BK12 isn't taller than the ballnut mount, like the BF12 end mount.

    Then, I haven't quite figured out the mounting solution for the gantry to the Z bearing blocks, which is a major part of the design. As you see it, there is basically two side extensions for the gantry. This is because the granite slab is only 24" long, and I needed to gain a bit more length for the X travel I need to reach a little beyond the table so I can have the spindle come down and touch on a tool setter, among other possibilities.

    The extensions also help by providing a mounting point the ballscrew length that enables the long travel, and gets into range of connecting with the Z bearing blocks. Now I could make them one complete thick plate on both sides, each one screwing into the bearing blocks, the granite gantry, and into the Z ballnut mount, but this would require very precise measurements of the relative height of each one on that plane. If I'm off by a little then I'll have binding on the rails.

    I'd like to mate the two plates along the XZ plane and this would give me some room for error in alignment without binding.

    Lastly you can see that there is quite a gap between the X plate and the spindle motor: over two inches. The spindle is aligned with the center of the machine and I'm basically showing that there is some room to make adjustments. Obviously I could just go with it as it is and just move the whole upper part of the machine forward two inches to meet the spindle. Or I could just make an extension off of the X plate to meet the spindle and have room for a larger spindle upgrade in the future, possibly a large separated motor belted to a spindle, possibly a 5-axis head but I might be dreaming.

    I could also mount the Z rails and the bearing blocks to the front side of the granite risers and this may give me a more direct mount to the granite gantry, but would still need to have a metal adapter between them to make screwing them together easier. You know it's amazing how much easier I realize the better path as I type it out and this is probably the better path, however it would require more work because the edge faces of the granite plates are not flattened to the same precision as the top obviously. I would have to flatten them myself but I do have a very large granite slab to do that on, the base, although I don't have much experience doing this type of work. Time to research!

    Well tell me what you folks think, I lose six inches of X travel in this configuration but I gain that and more in the Z travel, and it kind of feels like I'm ending up with a vertical column mill but with extra steps, but I'm liking it.

  20. #20
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    Re: Granite build, stuck in my design, please help!

    Yea I'd put the rails on the front of the columns but leave the ballscrews on the sides for that extra mm that you need to keep the spindle in the middle. To mount the granite bridge you can drill all the way through it and glue in slightly shorter inserts, like this: https://i.imgur.com/eqMaA8h.png

    Alternatively you can use the other wide carriage type that screws in from the bottom and use regular inserts but then you'll have to manoeuver it when mounting which can be tricky but not impossible.

    Here's a good table on granite insert dimensions and how much N they can handle. https://www.precisiongranitecn.com/g...d-inserts.html

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