[trooper55]

Just a questions for people that have been in this feild longer then me. I have only been doing cnc oporating/programing for about 2 months now and i get 12 an hour witch sucks in my opionion.

List of duites
I Maintain, run, and program everything for our cnc router we are a sign company so i do some 3d but mostly 2d work with wood, plastic, and alum. I manage our invintory back here or the router department (one cnc router) i also do all the building matinence and Im the head of safety. They gave me a dollar an hour raise from 11 witch is what i made when i was just doing sign fab.

I guess im more or less complaining but just woundering if 12 an hour is realy worth all this

[JROM]

Where are you? It kind of depends on where you are and how well your company is doing? Walk out in the parking lot and scope out the owners car.
If he is driving a high end car you should ask for more money.
In Southern Ca. where I'm at a good programer gets between 25 and 35 an hour depending on how high pressure the job is and how hard the work is. The harder the work the less guys can do it, the more you make. It's a food chain and the best make it to the top.

[Geof]

....Walk out in the parking lot and scope out the owners car. If he is driving a high end car you should ask for more money....

No, that means he has spent everything on the car and you are out of luck . If he is driving a clunker ask for more because he is just stashing it in the bank.

Your question is answered in this thread.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42247

[trooper55]

ya i read through that post. I guess i just didnt get a clear answer from it. I do alot more then just run and program. Like Ill be on the road sat to take down a sign with my boss. so im just kinda up in the air weather or not to ask for more money.

thanks for the replys

[Switcher]

I have only been doing cnc oporating/programing for about 2 months now and i get 12 an hour witch sucks in my opionion.

Only 2 months, & a dollar raise? Thats not bad.

I searched www.monster.com just to see how many job hits for "cnc - La Crosse Wi " the result was "0.000" (not good).

The more jobs in an area the better the pay.




.

[trooper55]

well no i have worked there for about 6 months and have gone up 4 dollors an hour i started as a fab assistant. Granted i have a great wealth of knowledge on fab, and i know a thing or two about cad and cnc basics. I guess i feel like i work very hard for only 12 an hour. And there are quite a few jobs for cnc around the lacrosse area just not on monster people around wi dont know what to do with computer job posting lol.

I guess its just frustrating know that i doubled the production output of that machine from what the guy that had been running it for 2 years had been doing, that and i got a weeks worth or training from him yet i was able to step in and run the machine with out help from others (due to no one else in the place know how to run it) with little to no errors. Ii have organized everything for easy to read and use from for others to look at what i have done, via jobs cut what materials used, and what date it was done basically cataloging my work.

I just want to thank everyone for there opinions. I guess im just trying to find out if there is a future in this line of work or not. I want to learn a trade that i like. I love running cnc machines, grated i wish we had a mill there

Thanks again.
Rory

[Caprirs]

I'll be the rain on your parade.

I think that job isn't worth much. The reason is it's not very precise and isn't really much of a "machinist" position. Tolerances are wide open compared to conventional machine shop practice. Materials are easy to cut. As you said, most is 2D.

You personally may have skills that are worth more, but the specific job may only be worth what you're making. If you were pushing carts at Walmart (no matter how well you pushed those carts), you'd only make minimum wage. If you ran titanium compressor blades on a 5 axis mill, you'd make $35/hr. You might be worth more, but not necessarily at your company.

A way to gauge your worth might be to determine the hourly shop rate your company charges to make signs. If they quote projects based on $25-$30/hr, then your pay is in line with the shops income. If they are billing at $60/hr, then you should probably be making more.

[trooper55]

I bill out at 65$ an hour right now with the machine i run. And Im more then happy to be rained on. I know i don't hold tight tolerances kinda depressing for me ( i like to push my self on my ability's.)

[Chuck Reamer]

i have worked there for about 6 months and have gone up 4 dollors an hour i started as a fab assistant.

Thats more of a wage increase than I got in a 3 year apprenticeship, with 2 years of college before that. I was doing real machine work, CNC mill programing, heat treating, grinding, milling, turning, cylindrical grinding, stamping die trouble shooting and repair, rotational molds, machine maintenance, and sheet metal fabrication.

Your position is not a high paying position even if you do bust your a$$ and double production.

Sorry about bursting your bubble, hey $4 in 6 months is sweet think of what will happen in the next couple of years you may be running the whole place.

[dertsap]

Your position is not a high paying position even if you do bust your a$$ and double production.

Sorry about bursting your bubble, hey $4 in 6 months is sweet think of what will happen in the next couple of years you may be running the whole place.

i couldn t agree more , obviously your boss sees your worth investing into ,and it is exactly that , an investment
your boss knows what the guys are doing and anyone who is bright and ambitious will move further faster than the guys who say "ah its just a job" .
in general a company will treat its employees as good as the employees treat it , especially when its layoff time
with patience time and the right attitude youll move along quickly and the money will come

word of advice dont worry about what the other guys are making and never tell anyone what your making , you never want to give the other guy the edge that will keep you dragged down , he will try to use it against the boss when he wants more money , ultimately it will work against you

[trooper55]

thanks for the advice. Everyone just trying to get a feel for this place and what its going to do. and dont worry i dont have any bubbles lol. Well i do have this to say its sat and im done with work and now i have th shop to my self to paint my bike so its not all bad.

[cnc metalcraft]

Ya give it time i started a fry cook at $9 hour and now a year later 14 so give it more time ones you get a year under your belt then you will be worth real money to some one

[Cruiser]

Industry is a very cruel woman ! No heart whatsoever ! and your only worth what you get. We are all tools and have worth as long as we can accomplish our tasks in a suitable productive mannerl. If you want more then you'll need to educate yourself, with paper to show it. You infered you do some cad work, but didn't say which cad. The industry standard for cad appears to be Mastercam these days, and altho some will train most want imediate results. If you could show paper on cad and proove competance and have geometric tollerancing and strong math, science, metalurgy to some degree and a whole lot more then i'd say go shopping young man go shopping !

[NC Cams]

I sort of when thru this with my grinder operator the other day - only I'll come at you from the employer's standpoint.

We're a small shop. Good profit potential and we make PRECISE parts but we're servicing a small, highly specialized market. I have NO salesman, no benefits whatsoever and only a wom (word of mouth) reputation.

I can't broadcast who I do work for as that would go against the assurances and NDA's (non disclosure agreeements) I had to sign to get the business I do have. Nobody brags about us because we're a well kept secret that our race clients do NOT want their competition to learn/hear about. Real CATCH 22.

Yes, we have work in the shop now - we need it. Why? my rent and utilities are nearly $2000/month. Then there are salaries (hourly and salaried0 not to mention taxes and other things that siphon money at every turn. I need something like $60K in business just to cover expenses and each hour they work costs me more out of pocket - and you do NOT always get a 1:1 payback in ANY workers time. At best, you get around 70% productivity, and even less the day after golf league or a hard "party hearty" event

I've got nearly $250K in machinery that I couldn't get $100K for now if I had to - probably less. I have steel prices and heat treat prices and shipping prices that would choke you. Gross profit is high, Net I hardly make ends meet at the end of the month. My office mgr comes at me DAILY with checks that HAVE to be paid yet one client has not paid me nearly $10K since MAY.

When a guy screws up and hurts a prototype cam, that ALL comes out of MY pocket - the guy won't even OFFER to redo it at no pay even though it may have cost me 50 times what I pay him to fix the screw up. After all, "who does he think I am?" (says the employee after the screw up). We know you're a well paid screw up, now prove otherwise.

My guys get their checks and go home, I don't know if they're gonna show up tomorrow but stuff STILL has to ship Friday. Oh, and they tell me the day bafore they decide that HAVE to take off tomorrow or whenever - they know about it weeks ago but "forgot". Thankfully, they usually rise to the occasion when I ask but there is always some "negotiations" that have to be handled to get some MUST GO cam done in place of the ever much more important GOLF LEAGUE crap.

NASCAR engine builders make $50-$60K but work 6-7 days and on many national holidays. Local flat rate mechanics make as much or less but don't put in anywhere's near the time and have holidays off. I dare say, the local guys would give anything to do the NASCAR stuff and the guys in NASCAR woudn't trade it for the world - regardless of the pay/grief/hassle.

Ultimately, you get what you're worth. You may be worth more someplace else but where you are, you get market value. Don't even start looking at what the boss makes/takes from his business. YOU make the investment, you take the time, you sweat out the details even when you're not at the shop like the boss/owner does (a good one anyway) and then you can do what he does.

Like my uncle told me when he was still alive and running his own business when I said "you owe your employee's this or that or more $$$'s".

His reply, which I didn't understand until I ran my own business was simple, "I owe you nothing. I pay you what I agreed to and you work for the agreed upon amount. If you want more, prove to me that your'e worth it. If you feel you're not being paid enough, we can talk about it but, ultimately, you decide what's best/acceptable to/for you. At that point, you can stay or move on. I'll never have hard feelings for a many who figures he can improve himself elsewheres but the worker is only worth what I can afford to pay him in my market".

[Kipper]

$12=£6= me staying in bed/retiring if you're worth more then start your own business and go into competition with your present employer and then you can pay your staff "what they're worth" Are you paid enough? If you were 18YO here you'd be getting around that...The guy that sweeps the yard where I work makes $16 an hour :shrug: I do very little...along the lines of "being paid for what you know as opposed to what you do"

[NC Cams]

I don't know what the rule are in the rest of the world but in the USA, the hourly pay is only PART of the compensation package.

In our state, there is a workmens compensation tax - it is a simple % of the hourly/salary that gets paid directly to the government on behalf of the employee by the employer. That comes out of the employers pocket and pays the employee when/if he gets laid off.

Interestingly NOBODY pays the owner if he gets "laid off" (goes bust) but that's irrelevant. This tax is risk based hence a shop that does fabrication or machining is higher risk (and pays higher premium) than a Dairy Queen.

There is also Social Security (federal tax) that the employer also pays a porttion of, again on the behalf of the employee. Not only does the employer have to pay the "employee half" but they also have to pay the "employer half". And a single person pays taxes for wives and spouses and dependants even though the may have none - ditto that for the employer.

Then there is the issue of insurance.

This can be igonored if you don't get/have any BUT most larger outfits do have it and offer it to the employees with no premium sharing. This is a real killer as it is highly age dependant and risk based. A machine shop has higher risk than an office worker so that enters into the "cost structure". Older employees cost more than younger and there are other premium kickers that they throw at you whenever possible.

Irrespective of the risk, health insurance is EXPENSIVE. Family coverage can EASILY climb to $1000+ per month or more per family. Small businesses (less than 20 or so people) get absolutely no break nor can they develop a pool to get better coverage or lower premiums - the insurance companies have good lobbyists to protect them from states allowing that.

Single person coverage for even the most basic of coverage with high deductables can run $250 or more per month. More complete coverage Isingle, no dependants, if you can get it) EASILY runs $500 or more per month.

If you have diabetes or other diagnosed "exclusionary pre-existing conditions", you can't get ANY insurance regardless of the price. I spent DAYS on the phone talking to any/every agent I could talk with only to learn that you can't get coverage unless you're healthy and you don't need health insurance if you are healthy. You'll get NO help or poor at best if you go to a hospital and do not have an insurance card.

If owning your own business is SO grand and glorious, I urge, no, I ENCOURAGE you to start your own and TRY to compete with existing firms. I did just that - thankfully, I had an engineering day jobe to support it as the "side job" was NOT easy to start and make profitable enough to support me let alone carry me thru with the bucks to make a go of it over time. If I got sick today or someone got hurt, I'd probably lose EVERYTHING.

It is up and running now but I"m the last one to get a frigging dime out of the coffers. When the help starts to take an attitude like that in post #15, I readily offer to sell them the business for exactly what I have invested in it (then never take it). I even offer to offer it at 'book' value (current depreciated tax value) - still no takers.

Why? When I honestly show them what it costs to keep the doors open each and every month, they balk. When I express an interest in them taking over and me working for them so I could take the opportunity to pull the "come as they see fit" attendance methods that THEY use on me, they miraculously start to realize that things aren't as bad as they thought.

It also helps to remind then that in a "real job", they'd NOT ever be allowed to take off nearly at noon on Wednesdays thru the summer for their golf league. Nor if they come to me on Wed and ask for their Friday paycheck a bit early to cover their phone or rent bill, I usually help them and issue it early. In a "real job", they'd NEVER get the check other than when it is time and have to pay usurey "loan until payday" loan rates.

That too has a sobering affect on their unrealistic demands for more pay in return for less work.

NOTE re: the floor sweeper who makes $16/hour is obviously worth it - his employer willingly pays it. Wanna bet the shop is a union shop?. I do not begrude the union shop - my dad was in a union and it took good care of him and our family thru some hard times.

However, padded wages that the union gets (some say extort) from the employer are given out freely by the employer. Somebody asked for $16/hr for the floor sweeper and the management paid it.

Where I worked, they bragged about how they never had a strike. That's easy whenever there were labor negotions, the union simply got what they asked for - the managment simply raised prices to cover it.

Until that fateful day when the employer said NO. From then on, the relationship was not the same. Raises were much harder negotiated and fought. Ultimately, the day for "give backs" came. The union said, 'not to worry, they'll never close the plant - we're too profitable'

The division got downsized, moved out and eventually sold off then closed entirely. The building (once the largest of its type for aftermarket distribution) is now empty except for cordoned off sections that are doing small start-ups.

What was the power house name of the industry is nothing more than a footnote in the anals of aftermarket distribution. And the union said it couldn't/wouldn't happen.

Back to reality. Could anyone pay more? Probably, Yet, there are times when I have NO work in the shop. Yet, I "make work" to keep the guys busy. They don't see that as a "favor". They don't even thank me. Some contend it is the "cost of doing businesss" - no, it is something else because not every employer does that. Some guys simply send people home.

Would I go back to work for someone else? Perhaps but probably not. I miss the steady pay but also would miss the freedom and the satisfaction of doing things "my way".

[dertsap]

i think you hit it right earlier when you qouted your uncle as saying " i owe you nothing more than the amount we agreed on "
seems a lot of people have grown up to beleave the world owes them something , i'll listen to guys whine and cry about something and i'll say "talk to the boss ", a couple days later they are moaning and groaning about the same issues ,i'll ask have you not talked to the boss ? their reply is usually NO NOT YET , my usual reply is then youve got nothing to bit$@# about then do you ?
ive worked and continue to work hard to earn my keep and ive advanced further than others who have been there longer because of my experience but most important is my attitude towards my work
i look at things this way :
i work for myself ,i work for my money , my security ,my reputation , i work with pride in my work , i provide them with a service which we have agreed upon , with us both understanding it can and will be terminated at some point of time by either one of us ,in the meantime we will enjoy working together .
we both have our own agenda and that is to make money , so why work against each other ?
it's like i posted earlier a company will take care of its employees as well as the employees take care of the company , it's a mutual respect that works and it is something that is needed in order for a company to succeed

i have a great respect for guys who set out to create a business and succeed , as well as those who fail , why should anyone question their rewards ,we wouldn t have ours without these guys

[trooper55]

Please do not take me wrong. I am not saying the company owes me anything i work for my pay, and i work hard. I also do talk to my boss about my pay and i Too Owned a business, that well due to the market failed and lost alot. I have the thinking that I show up to work when told, i do what is asked of me and if there is something that needs to be done i ask what can i do and i do it with out *****ing because If im willing to help out and smile they will see im working for the company not just getting a pay check.

I dont look at my job as just a pay check i come in trying to imporve the company so that when i do they i can say i at least made the effort to help and make things better. my whole question from the start was With what i said i did what do you guys and galls think. I love that company. Even if i have not worked there long i helped out at my bosses house all the time (the company owner) and he is a great man, so is our shop manager. and all the guys in the shop.

I dont just go there to do what i can. I go there to improve my self and the company's. With NC Cams comment on how one of his workers screwed up and said o well ( at least thats what i though he was saying) its not his problem. I have gone on my own time to do work for the company if it was a help. Even used my own car.

And NC Cams I have to thank you for your posts they bring light to what people dont know. I use to run my own business with 2 partners and we failed
SO when i talk with my boss i always know both sides, Or as best i can know. dont take me wrong im just hear asking questions to learn, whats what.

Thanks again everyone

[dertsap]

Please do not take me wrong. I am not saying the company owes me anything i work for my pay, and i work hard.

it was in no way directed at you , youve got the right attitude !
i was only speaking in general after reading nccams post

i was reading a post recently where a guy had said he looks to see what car the boss has ,if he's driving an expensive car then he's probably cheap .
i look at what the boss is driving as well but most importantly i look at what the employees are driving , that is what tells me where the money is

[Geof]

...i look at what the boss is driving as well but most importantly i look at what the employees are driving , that is what tells me where the money is

No, not really, they are financed. I have had several employees buy a brand new car as soon as they had passed their probationary three months; the bank would phone and ask if I expected to lay them off, the answer was always no so they got the financing. Then two of them quit!