[Rahul1108]

First of all, I would really appreciate any advise, comments or opinions all of you have to offer. I'm extremely new to CNC's, woodworking machines and woodworking in general. I've read a lot about chinese suppliers on these forums and about CNC nesting vs Pod & Rail. Our primary purpose is custom kitchen renovations, although I plan to make simple woodworking products as well for sale on Amazon.

The two machines I'm comparing are below: (going to get the 5x10 versions)

Sign CNC:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...2ea72db4BOJX0O

Youhao:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...2ea72db4BOJX0O

Honestly, I'm okay with the idea of the machines lasting 2-3 years, until I earn the capital to allocate on a better machine.

I'm comparing machines from the major Chinese brands mentioned on this site already but there are two that caught my eye, maybe just because I'm an amateur. I'm wondering what you all think about these two machines? Will the beam saws end up being useless, we're using a sliding panel saw a lot right now and I like the idea of being able to cut multiple sheets for standard cabinets (for like a multi-kitchen commercial job). We're trying to get a machine that does horizontal drilling so we can stop doing dowels with a jig. I realize a boring machine or dowel bowing/insert machine would be faster and likely more reliable but I'm hoping to get this later after we've got more cash.

Again absolutely any advice is appreciated, if you've got a better recommendation than these two please let me know. Some main functions we want is ATC and horizontal drilling. Auto loading isn't a priority at the moment. We make kitchen cabinets and cabinet doors.

We were considering some used Biesse, Morbidelli and Felder pod & rail (2005 - 2007) machines but I feel the risk of having to repair, chance of cutting pods for sheet cutting and overall speed isn't great, I'm also a little concerned with programming difficulty. We are a start up. My father is going to be working with me and has used and has done programming for several CNC machines both nested and pod. He also owned a couple of Excitech 4x8's and used to do kitchens, but after a fire, he lost pretty much all his machinery because he didn't set up insurance. The reason I'm getting into this is because I know my father made incredible kitchens and I've personally been successful starting a business fully compliant with taxes and laws. I've set up the shop, got insurance, an amazing website, marking plan, we're building a showroom now; but still we're on a budget with getting these machines. Our current set up is a 4x4 gorilla CNC, Panel Saw, Edgebander, Table saws and a couple of shapers; we need an upgrade badly.

Thanks for reading this and thank you for your time and advice, I truly appreciate it.

[routalot]

Would you be able to bypass the horizontal drilling if you got hold of something like one of these? https://www.scosarg.com/minimax-advance-21-multiborer It might give an easier upgrade path.I took a look at both of the machines referenced and saw nothing about vacuum systems,so how would you hold down the workpiece?There could be another hefty outlay to complete the outfit.Another consideration is how easy it might be to get a service tech on the phone when or if something goes wrong and for this reason alone,I would give very serious consideration to finding a supply from somewhere in the same time zone.I have had to call service guys that were five hours behind.......

The beam saw aspect of operation is something I haven't ever got involved in and I wonder about the perceived advantage of a swift cut and a narrow kerf versus the material lost to the arc of the cutting radius.I might make a difference with the nesting compared to the wider kerf of a router cutter that follows the outline.Have you estimated how many tools a typical sheet might require?It might cause an ATC to be a consideration and don't forget that with simple shapes,it can take almost as long to clean the machine between sheets as it does to cut each sheet.

One other consideration might be the CAM software you select,will it have a post processor that matches the selected machine or will one have to be adapted or created?Both these exercises might involve additional expense.Never overlook that the purchase price of the machine can be a long way short of the total cost of getting the machine installed and producing parts.

[mactec54]

Would you be able to bypass the horizontal drilling if you got hold of something like one of these? https://www.scosarg.com/minimax-advance-21-multiborer It might give an easier upgrade path.I took a look at both of the machines referenced and saw nothing about vacuum systems,so how would you hold down the workpiece?There could be another hefty outlay to complete the outfit.Another consideration is how easy it might be to get a service tech on the phone when or if something goes wrong and for this reason alone,I would give very serious consideration to finding a supply from somewhere in the same time zone.I have had to call service guys that were five hours behind.......

The beam saw aspect of operation is something I haven't ever got involved in and I wonder about the perceived advantage of a swift cut and a narrow kerf versus the material lost to the arc of the cutting radius.I might make a difference with the nesting compared to the wider kerf of a router cutter that follows the outline.Have you estimated how many tools a typical sheet might require?It might cause an ATC to be a consideration and don't forget that with simple shapes,it can take almost as long to clean the machine between sheets as it does to cut each sheet.

One other consideration might be the CAM software you select,will it have a post processor that matches the selected machine or will one have to be adapted or created?Both these exercises might involve additional expense.Never overlook that the purchase price of the machine can be a long way short of the total cost of getting the machine installed and producing parts.

If you read the specs both machines have vacuum available

[mactec54]

First of all, I would really appreciate any advise, comments or opinions all of you have to offer. I'm extremely new to CNC's, woodworking machines and woodworking in general. I've read a lot about chinese suppliers on these forums and about CNC nesting vs Pod & Rail. Our primary purpose is custom kitchen renovations, although I plan to make simple woodworking products as well for sale on Amazon.

The two machines I'm comparing are below: (going to get the 5x10 versions)

Sign CNC:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...2ea72db4BOJX0O

Youhao:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...2ea72db4BOJX0O

Honestly, I'm okay with the idea of the machines lasting 2-3 years, until I earn the capital to allocate on a better machine.

I'm comparing machines from the major Chinese brands mentioned on this site already but there are two that caught my eye, maybe just because I'm an amateur. I'm wondering what you all think about these two machines? Will the beam saws end up being useless, we're using a sliding panel saw a lot right now and I like the idea of being able to cut multiple sheets for standard cabinets (for like a multi-kitchen commercial job). We're trying to get a machine that does horizontal drilling so we can stop doing dowels with a jig. I realize a boring machine or dowel bowing/insert machine would be faster and likely more reliable but I'm hoping to get this later after we've got more cash.

Again absolutely any advice is appreciated, if you've got a better recommendation than these two please let me know. Some main functions we want is ATC and horizontal drilling. Auto loading isn't a priority at the moment. We make kitchen cabinets and cabinet doors.

We were considering some used Biesse, Morbidelli and Felder pod & rail (2005 - 2007) machines but I feel the risk of having to repair, chance of cutting pods for sheet cutting and overall speed isn't great, I'm also a little concerned with programming difficulty. We are a start up. My father is going to be working with me and has used and has done programming for several CNC machines both nested and pod. He also owned a couple of Excitech 4x8's and used to do kitchens, but after a fire, he lost pretty much all his machinery because he didn't set up insurance. The reason I'm getting into this is because I know my father made incredible kitchens and I've personally been successful starting a business fully compliant with taxes and laws. I've set up the shop, got insurance, an amazing website, marking plan, we're building a showroom now; but still we're on a budget with getting these machines. Our current set up is a 4x4 gorilla CNC, Panel Saw, Edgebander, Table saws and a couple of shapers; we need an upgrade badly.

Thanks for reading this and thank you for your time and advice, I truly appreciate it.

Those old machines have had their day, they would be nothing but trouble.

[Rahul1108]

Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it. A horizontal drilling machine is a consideration right now, again, I'm looking at mostly chinese companies because my budget is roughly 40-50K CAD. For tech support my dad, who will be overseeing the shop doesn't think he'll need much support outside of maybe re-order broken parts. He's repaired a lot of CNC machines albeit older ones with stepper motors. They do seem to have vacuums system for holding down the work piece but like you mentioned, they probably dont have great dust collection systems. I'm sure we can make a workaround for that though.

I haven't heard about kerf to be honest and I'm going to watch a few videos on it now, so thanks again for mentioning this. My dad said he worked at a couple of large cabinet companies in Canada that used a beam saw then pod & rail to machine the workpiece. I don't know how many tools a typical sheet will require, but will find out from my dad, thanks for bringing this up because it's something I wouldn't have even thought to consider. I'm thinking the cabinetry tools will be standard while the tools for doors will vary a lot.

Both of the machines above have ATC, and I like the fact you don't need to switch to an aggregate on these machines, they have a separate spindle. Both machines have Artcam which my dad has used extensively so I'm hoping that won't be an issue. I know pretty much nothing about the best software, but I'll definitely start looking into it a little deeper now.

[Rahul1108]

Yeah, I'm not liking the idea of buying a machine made in 2007 because of likely repairs/maintenance and availability of parts.

[routalot]

Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it. A horizontal drilling machine is a consideration right now, again, I'm looking at mostly chinese companies because my budget is roughly 40-50K CAD. For tech support my dad, who will be overseeing the shop doesn't think he'll need much support outside of maybe re-order broken parts. He's repaired a lot of CNC machines albeit older ones with stepper motors. They do seem to have vacuums system for holding down the work piece but like you mentioned, they probably dont have great dust collection systems. I'm sure we can make a workaround for that though.

I haven't heard about kerf to be honest and I'm going to watch a few videos on it now, so thanks again for mentioning this. My dad said he worked at a couple of large cabinet companies in Canada that used a beam saw then pod & rail to machine the workpiece. I don't know how many tools a typical sheet will require, but will find out from my dad, thanks for bringing this up because it's something I wouldn't have even thought to consider. I'm thinking the cabinetry tools will be standard while the tools for doors will vary a lot.

Both of the machines above have ATC, and I like the fact you don't need to switch to an aggregate on these machines, they have a separate spindle. Both machines have Artcam which my dad has used extensively so I'm hoping that won't be an issue. I know pretty much nothing about the best software, but I'll definitely start looking into it a little deeper now.

Since you mention a budget,it is important to factor in everything it takes to get the machine into production.The vacuum system might not figure in the headline cost of the machine,similarly shipping,import duties,land based transport and commissioning will also cost money.It will help enormously to have an experienced man on hand to get things going.Good luck with the plan.

[Rahul1108]

I appreciate the advice and will definitely factor those costs in. It's looking like vacuum systems & self lubricating comes standard with all these machines. The things I'm most concerned with now is the machine functioning for a year and whether it would affect insurance. I hope to only rely on these machines for a year till I have the budget to purchase American machines and get a solution like Microvellum for automation.

[mactec54]

Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it. A horizontal drilling machine is a consideration right now, again, I'm looking at mostly chinese companies because my budget is roughly 40-50K CAD. For tech support my dad, who will be overseeing the shop doesn't think he'll need much support outside of maybe re-order broken parts. He's repaired a lot of CNC machines albeit older ones with stepper motors. They do seem to have vacuums system for holding down the work piece but like you mentioned, they probably dont have great dust collection systems. I'm sure we can make a workaround for that though.

I haven't heard about kerf to be honest and I'm going to watch a few videos on it now, so thanks again for mentioning this. My dad said he worked at a couple of large cabinet companies in Canada that used a beam saw then pod & rail to machine the workpiece. I don't know how many tools a typical sheet will require, but will find out from my dad, thanks for bringing this up because it's something I wouldn't have even thought to consider. I'm thinking the cabinetry tools will be standard while the tools for doors will vary a lot.

Both of the machines above have ATC, and I like the fact you don't need to switch to an aggregate on these machines, they have a separate spindle. Both machines have Artcam which my dad has used extensively so I'm hoping that won't be an issue. I know pretty much nothing about the best software, but I'll definitely start looking into it a little deeper now.

If they say it comes with ArtCam you need to check that part as ArtCam is very expensive, they may be just an illegal copy

[Rahul1108]

Oh wow, really. Thanks for the tip, I would not have known otherwise.

[LanzoDietrich]

If they say it comes with ArtCam you need to check that part as ArtCam is very expensive, they may be just an illegal copy

ArtCAM is no loger a software. its outdated and stopped after Autodesk acquire it. Aspire /vcarve is way better