[phyzzle]

Hi All,
Thanks for the amazing site and forum!

I am a physics prof, at onetime a (very) amateur machinist (some of us experimental types do learn how to jam up a bridgeport in college). Fortunately they don't let me run the machines anymore, but at the moment I am in charge of buying a VMC and its tooling for our student/faculty/research shop. Our budget is probably max $40K, but that likely has to include a decent set of tooling as well. We need something at least 24" travel in X, so we are looking at used Haas VF-2, new TM-1P, new Sharp 2412 (I don't have a price on the Sharp yet but expect one soon), new Hurco VM1 (the latter starts pretty high however, so I don't know if we can make it). I guess other used machines might cut it as well, I have just not been able to make much headway with all the used machines out there, and we want to stay with something less than 10 yrs old as well. Fadals come up a lot, but the older controllers make me a bit gunshy, and there seems to be a lot of mixed press on them.

We are getting a great educational deal on Mastercam, so we really want to have DNC capability, and a lot of our machining is specialty parts that will be transferred into Mastercam from solidworks or mechanical desktop. (I am pretty sure we will also want to have a 4th axis ready even if we can't buy the tooling for it just yet).

We will also be hiring a CNC machinist/instrument builder to manage the machine and shop (this is a nice career for somebody ready to move out of the manufacturing world)--but we don't have anybody yet or he would be writing this...

I have two questions:
(1) What machine would you buy (and why) if you were in my shoes, used or new?
(2) What is the basic set of tooling that we should be pricing out along with the machine to make sure that we can actually use it when we do get one?

[Chuck Reamer]

For an education facility you cant beat a Haas, the TM2 or TM3 would be the cats meow in the size department. What kind of work are you looking to do? Aluminum, steel, composites and plastics or maby a little bit of everything.

Haas controllers are VERY user friendly and you can transfer Mastercam programs with a USB flash drive. I would recommend going brand new for a TM series, and maby talk to your local Haas distributer about a deal. I know every technical school I have ever been in has a bunch of Haas machines, they are getting rid of older machines and only bringing in Haas. I believe Haas does this on purpose, because every new machinist has Haas experience before they even hit the employment market.

Tooling should run about 4 to 5K to start a nice little setup, I depends on the work your going to do. The place that you get a machine from, or a local supplier should be able to help you out. It looks very good to be involved with a university or college, so someone should be very willing to help you.

A collet set(ER-32), couple of 1/2" drill chucks, small face mill, and a couple of end mill holders. Full set of HSS twist drills, a variety of smaller end mills (stay under 1/2" for all of them, its much cheaper to do this especially if your programing with a CAM system.) Milling vise, the SOWA GS series are nice and much cheaper than the Kurt. Set of mill clamps, parallels and the list goes one.

[Geof]

The fully enclosed version of the Haas TM might be preferable. You get faster spindle speed and rapids and less mess on the floor.

[MrWild]

[QUOTE= the SOWA GS series are nice and much cheaper than the Kurt.[/QUOTE]

American college, American students, American tuition. Sure, buy foreign and get the students used to outsourcing their jobs once they leave college. It will help make them well rounded and understanding of global economics. Or you could contact Kurt directly and see what deals they offer.

[Chuck Reamer]

American college, American students, American tuition. Sure, buy foreign and get the students used to outsourcing their jobs once they leave college. It will help make them well rounded and understanding of global economics. Or you could contact Kurt directly and see what deals they offer.

I didn't see such a big issue in buying foreign stuff, I'm sure some of the electronics and drives on a Haas or Fadel come from Japan or China. What about bearings, most of them are not made in the US. My Mitatoyo square is made in Mexico!

If there is a better design for a better price, why not go for it.

Remember damn near all Americans and Canadians are immigrants, unless you are native or inuit.

I am just trying to lend a helping hand, in a constructive way.

[phyzzle]

Thanks Chuck for advice above...

We do a lot of 6061 or 7075, plastics, less steel, occasionally stuff like titanium 6Al4V (dunno what that last might require, seems like I recall that 6Al4V would sometimes harden up like a diamond when you machine it). Mostly one-off or a small quantity of some specialty parts, where we need the VMC more for its ability to work from CAD/CAM. Sometimes brass or even copper for waveguide or antenna work.

I am planning to require a 4th axis prewire, and then retro on the 4th axis device if there is no penalty for that. Any thoughts on the most versatile 4th axis device if you had to live with just one (the likely result of our budget)?

Got my quote from Haas for a TM-1P, enclosed as suggested. They gave us a decent educational discount, but then tacked on $3500 for "export package" and "overseas installation" because we are in Hawaii (Univ. of Hawaii). Guess they call it paradise tax here. But we are Americans too last time I checked! Haas does not seem to think so.

( On the all-american front, I think the reason we are the strong country we are is that we *are* all immigrants, at least a few generations on back! Where would machining be if we didn't have a thousand different alloys to choose from--same with the good ol USA, the mix is what makes it tough.)

[JROM]

It sounds like with all the zoomy stuff you want to cut you better stay with a "wet" machine. You know a full enclosure with flood coolent. I think your budget is a little thin for all the stuff you want to do. You can get a forth axis later with a stand alone control. Look at the Haas stuff. Prewireing for a fourth is about 2-3k but the benefit is you have a spare set of drive parts built in! 5-7k for tooling. By the way how much you paying for the guy to run it all? I would stick with carbide endmills, no one I know uses highspeed steel anymore. I could go on for an hour about what you should buy but then you would not get to have any fun figuring it out!

[JROM]

P.S.
I just had a thought!
Is there anyone over there that services Haas mills? If not you will have to pay to fly a guy over there if the machine breaks down and they charge the same rate for travel time as the work time. BIG BUCKS. I would check with the navy and see what kind of machines they are using. there is bound to be some support for a brand that the navy is using. They may even have a used machine to sell you. Good luck

[phyzzle]

Good point, I think there is nobody really doing service over here for any of these machines, but its worth checking the Navy shops at Pearl. I talked to the Haas guy about this, and they suggest sending our machinist over to get trained on maintenance/service, I guess the training is pretty cheap, or maybe free if we can work it right.

I could certainly get a potentially better machine used, there is a huge market out there, but we are a bit gunshy of the lemon factor, or the hidden refurbishment costs. But I have some quotes on 1997-2000 Haas VF-2s that are very tempting in the $26-37K range. Its like buying a used car over the web tho...

[NC Cams]

I went the use route and, at the time, it was the way to go. I'd hoped to go 4th axis but that has provent hard to find for mid/late 90's equipment. In retrospect, new would have been better but I don't/didn't have the money.

I can't help but say DITTO, DITTO, DITTO for post #2. For the materials, the listed machines will do SUPERBLY. Our neighbor has 5 of the Haas' and they cut aluminum day in and day out - trick stuff too such as billet throttle bodies and other such complicated stuff. He patches DIRECTLY from his cad to the machines via RS232 and does so with no hardship whatsoever.

If you do go with ANY VMC, get it prefitted with 4th axis, especially if you go Haas. At that point, you simply plug in an OFF THE SHELF Haas 4th axis and party on.

NOTE: since you're doing this for a school, you REALLY need to contact Haas directly. THey surely have a trade school deal that you can take advantage of and for reasons already cited.

[phyzzle]

Thanks, this is great stuff. The Haas TM-1P with the covers is a nice looking machine no doubt, though Haas just nickel and dimes you to death on the options. The discount for educational institutions is OK, not huge, around 10% it seems. I agree with the 4th axis stuff, I am sweating out the details on that right now--it does really tend to jack up the price though, that must be where they make their money on these things.

Anybody have a sense of what the best all-around entry-level servo rotary table configuration is?

[Chuck Reamer]

Haas just nickel and dimes you to death on the options. The discount for educational institutions is OK, not huge, around 10% it seems. I agree with the 4th axis stuff, I am sweating out the details on that right now--it does really tend to jack up the price though, that must be where they make their money on these things.

Anybody have a sense of what the best all-around entry-level servo rotary table configuration is?

Haas is actually a great deal for options, with a Mazak or Fanuc the controller add ons are far more expensive sometimes more than double for the same option. Haas offers a Renshaw probe at less than half the price as most other manufactures, its a great deal.

I think a Haas 6" 4th axis will run about 6 or 7k, again much, much cheaper than the competitors. I looked at a Dawoo and it was nearly 20k!!!!

[JROM]

Also be aware that there are two levels of fourth axis rotorys. The cheapest kind just positions the fourth axis and locks it down so you can work on that face or feature. The more expensive version is a true 4th that can move in lockstep with the other 3 axis like the impeller programs you see running at all the trade shows. The first version is pretty straight foward, just an extra line of code to set the rotory before you start cutting. But the second version requires a trick post processer to synk. the drives for true fourth axis cuts.
By the way I asked in my first post how much you were paying the guy you were going to hire to run all this stuff for you? Might be a good retirement gig for someone like ME..........LOL

[phyzzle]

Also be aware that there are two levels of fourth axis rotorys. The cheapest kind just positions the fourth axis and locks it down so you can work on that face or feature. The more expensive version is a true 4th that can move in lockstep with the other 3 axis like the impeller programs you see running at all the trade shows. The first version is pretty straight foward, just an extra line of code to set the rotory before you start cutting. But the second version requires a trick post processer to synk. the drives for true fourth axis cuts.
By the way I asked in my first post how much you were paying the guy you were going to hire to run all this stuff for you? Might be a good retirement gig for someone like ME..........LOL

Thanks--I had not thought of that before. Clearly there is a huge difference in capability if you can't actually sunchronously move the 4th axis while you are machining.

We finally zeroed in on a machine, a Sharp SV-2412, it came down to that vs. a Haas toolroom mill, or a used VF2 (c. 2000 , 3-5K cutting hours typically, though with more capability). In the end we got cold feet about a used machine, nobody to fix it here in Hawaii. The Sharp seems to have a lot of good buzz about it, 2 yr warranty (6 mos. for Haas), 25% (!) educational discount (10% for Haas), and a lot of standard features that cost $1-2K apiece as options elsewhere. They push SMW for the 4th axis, dunno if its a true 4th though it seems to be.

For our staff machinist position, there is a pretty wide range of starting salaries possible, seems to cover the range in industry/manufacturing reasonably well, but I am not allowed to quote a number just yet (administrators rule the world)! There is a post on machinetools.com if you want a bit more info (still no hard number though.