[BertZ]

Hi Mactec54

I am still going back and forth with TECO Westinghouse, but the prospects are not looking too promising. Here is the latest from them:

"the L510 is a micro not really intended for use on such a high speed application . That said Theoretically it should work (assuming that the driven motor is indeed a standard induction motor and not a permanent magnet motor). The issue here appears to be the minimum Frequency being set so high that the VFD has no other option than to saturate the motor to try to get it rolling. 01-08 and 1-09 should be set back to factory defaults."

After implementing their recommendations, the VFD accelerates up to speed and no longer trips out. There is one minor problem - I have no output to the motor! The saga continues.

FYI - I have a Huanyang HY02D223B ready to go in as soon as I get an RMA from TECO Westinghouse.

[mactec54]

Hi Mactec54

I am still going back and forth with TECO Westinghouse, but the prospects are not looking too promising. Here is the latest from them:

"the L510 is a micro not really intended for use on such a high speed application . That said Theoretically it should work (assuming that the driven motor is indeed a standard induction motor and not a permanent magnet motor). The issue here appears to be the minimum Frequency being set so high that the VFD has no other option than to saturate the motor to try to get it rolling. 01-08 and 1-09 should be set back to factory defaults."

After implementing their recommendations, the VFD accelerates up to speed and no longer trips out. There is one minor problem - I have no output to the motor! The saga continues.

FYI - I have a Huanyang HY02D223B ready to go in as soon as I get an RMA from TECO Westinghouse.

If the VFD Drive can't do what is in the manual, then they have no choice but to take it back, the manual shows that it is capable doing 400Hz.

Don't connect the Spindle to the VFD Drive using default settings, as that will damage the spindle motor for sure, Not all VFD Drive are created equal even the expensive Drives

[automationtechinc]

You can do following to check:

1: Unconnected the Spindle and run the VFD, You Should have no alarm

2:Measure the Resistance between U and V, V and W, U and W, they should have same reading

Contact me if you need any help

https://www.automationtechnologiesin...ge/cnc-spindle

[mactec54]

You can do following to check:

1: Unconnected the Spindle and run the VFD, You Should have no alarm

2:Measure the Resistance between U and V, V and W, U and W, they should have same reading

Contact me if you need any help

https://www.automationtechnologiesin...ge/cnc-spindle

He has done those tests as well had the spindle motors megger checked at a motor repair shop, the motors are fine, his VFD Drive is the problem, as it can't drive this spindle motor using the high frequency 120Hz / 400Hz required for these spindle motors

[kreutz]

What is the problem with the original motor controller? Why is is not possible to control it from your software side? Is it possible to make some kind of adapter for it to be controllable? I read the whole tread, I might have overlooked it but there is no mention to the model for the original controller.

[BertZ]

The original VFD did run the motors but it would not communicate with my controller so I gave it to a friend where it now drives the motor for his auto Koi feeder. Who the hell knows what the model was; I tried the vendor (Vevor)for tech support and got squat.

[BertZ]

Some good news (hopefully). I got both of my motors to spool up to 400 Hz last night while I was fooling around with the V/F curve settings. Tech support from TECO Westinghouse leaves a lot to be desired. It seems as though they were surprised that I would use this drive to power a 400 Hz spindle motor. Also hooked up an external pot and ran the speed up and down. All good so far.

Tonight I will see if I can get it to Start/Stop from my controller.

If anyone is interested I can post parameter values that got this thing working. Gotta get back to work!

[kreutz]

Congratulations, some times perseverance is the best solution!!

[mactec54]

Some good news (hopefully). I got both of my motors to spool up to 400 Hz last night while I was fooling around with the V/F curve settings. Tech support from TECO Westinghouse leaves a lot to be desired. It seems as though they were surprised that I would use this drive to power a 400 Hz spindle motor. Also hooked up an external pot and ran the speed up and down. All good so far.

Tonight I will see if I can get it to Start/Stop from my controller.

If anyone is interested I can post parameter values that got this thing working. Gotta get back to work!

Yes, would like to see what they came up with after they said it would not work, with the 400Hz spindle

It is not their fault because they never normally would be dealing with these High-speed spindles, they normally would only be working in the 50Hz / 60Hz range so 400Hz would be out of there comfort zone.

Does your controller have a Relay output if so, this is the easiest way to do the 0N / 0FF

[BertZ]

Hi Mactec54

Tonight I am a very happy camper! I was able to conrol The VFD using the RMSV3.1 controller for both ON/OFF and spindle speed. However I plan to control the spindle speed using a pot on the door of the electrical enclosure. I do have relay output contacts and I may end up using these to turn the cooling water pump off and on.

The ON/OFF function is via an optocoupler with open collector output.

Tomorrow I will be moving the whole shooting match into an electrical enclosure and hanging it on the wall.

Still find it hard to believe that the factory techs dont know how to set up a V/F curve for a 400 Hz motor.

[mactec54]

Hi Mactec54

Tonight I am a very happy camper! I was able to conrol The VFD using the RMSV3.1 controller for both ON/OFF and spindle speed. However I plan to control the spindle speed using a pot on the door of the electrical enclosure. I do have relay output contacts and I may end up using these to turn the cooling water pump off and on.

The ON/OFF function is via an optocoupler with open collector output.

Tomorrow I will be moving the whole shooting match into an electrical enclosure and hanging it on the wall.

Still find it hard to believe that the factory techs dont know how to set up a V/F curve for a 400 Hz motor.

Unless they were doing it all the time, they would not know how to do anything like this outside of what is in the manual.

All VFD Drive Manuals only show how to use those Parameters with 50Hz / 60 Hz motors and is very basic at that.

That was the next step I was going to go through with you, but we did not get to that part, I sure the settings you arrived at are not correct, (Linear) I did one for someone else here on the Zone at the same time as you were having your trouble, it is quite easy to work them out using the Voltage to Frequency Ratio which is the only way to do it correctly

Yes, using an open collector output works, but not as safe as using a SSR / Relay and is not recommended for Spindle control that you have to have your hands involved to change the cutters, a Relay will give you galvanic isolation.

So, Post what they worked out for those Parameters, and we will see how close they got.

[BertZ]

I'm not as inclined to let the TECO Westinghouse guys off the hook as you are. They are putting out a product that is designed to drive high RPM, 400 Hz motors. I may be inclined to give the techs a break, but not the company. The Huanyang manual had TONS more info on setting up the curves than TECO. With that having been said, let's see what they come back with. I am inclined to agree with you that the parameters I am using are sub-optimal.

I don't have a problem with open collector outputs. This design is used on millions of opto-couplers and comparators world wide. I got it available so I'll use it.

CF6-07-04 at $10.00/ft?? I agree it's the cat's ass of cabling and I would spec it for an industrial application; but for a home shop CNC there has to be something cheaper that will do the job. Beware of cables that use Cu-Al alloy. OK for crimpled connections, I guess; but not worth a damn if you have to solder connectors.

[mactec54]

I'm not as inclined to let the TECO Westinghouse guys off the hook as you are. They are putting out a product that is designed to drive high RPM, 400 Hz motors. I may be inclined to give the techs a break, but not the company. The Huanyang manual had TONS more info on setting up the curves than TECO. With that having been said, let's see what they come back with. I am inclined to agree with you that the parameters I am using are sub-optimal.

I don't have a problem with open collector outputs. This design is used on millions of opto-couplers and comparators world wide. I got it available so I'll use it.

CF6-07-04 at $10.00/ft?? I agree it's the cat's ass of cabling and I would spec it for an industrial application; but for a home shop CNC there has to be something cheaper that will do the job. Beware of cables that use Cu-Al alloy. OK for crimpled connections, I guess; but not worth a damn if you have to solder connectors.

It is your choice to use whatever you want to control an 0n / 0ff operation; safety is key

This type of cable is more so needed for your home install than in an industrial, as there are work arounds for industrial installations.

CF6-07-04 where are you looking to get that price, this cable is at the low-price end for VFD Drive to Motor connection, if you can't use this then you don't have many choices for a VFD to Motor suitable shielded cable

[BertZ]

I have decided to stay with the TECO Westinghouse L510 VFD. The reason is simply that there is nothing wrong with this drive. After a long conversation with a factory tech, it became apparent that I was saturating the stator core during the ramp up. At low frequencies the inductive reactance of the stator coils is also very low allowing a large current to saturate the stator. I was lucky I didn't burn up one of my motors.

The V/F curve I was using was strictly linear which was fine as long as the frequency was above 50/60 Hz. The trick is to keep the voltage low while ramping up the frequency..

Const. f L XL R Z V V% I kW
6.28 20 0.028 1.76 3.6 4.0 ohms 15 6.8% 3.7 0.06
6.28 50 0.028 4.40 3.6 5.7 ohms 18 8.2% 3.2 0.06
6.28 75 0.028 6.59 3.6 7.5 ohms 40 18.2% 5.3 0.21
6.28 120 0.028 10.55 3.6 11.1 ohms 70 31.8% 6.3 0.44
6.28 240 0.028 21.10 3.6 21.4 ohms 135 61.4% 6.3 0.85
6.28 400 0.028 35.17 3.6 35.4 ohms 220 100.0% 6.2 1.37


I did find CF6-07-04 for $3.30/ft; 20 ft. min.

[mactec54]

I have decided to stay with the TECO Westinghouse L510 VFD. The reason is simply that there is nothing wrong with this drive. After a long conversation with a factory tech, it became apparent that I was saturating the stator core during the ramp up. At low frequencies the inductive reactance of the stator coils is also very low allowing a large current to saturate the stator. I was lucky I didn't burn up one of my motors.

The V/F curve I was using was strictly linear which was fine as long as the frequency was above 50/60 Hz. The trick is to keep the voltage low while ramping up the frequency..

Const. f L XL R Z V V% I kW
6.28 20 0.028 1.76 3.6 4.0 ohms 15 6.8% 3.7 0.06
6.28 50 0.028 4.40 3.6 5.7 ohms 18 8.2% 3.2 0.06
6.28 75 0.028 6.59 3.6 7.5 ohms 40 18.2% 5.3 0.21
6.28 120 0.028 10.55 3.6 11.1 ohms 70 31.8% 6.3 0.44
6.28 240 0.028 21.10 3.6 21.4 ohms 135 61.4% 6.3 0.85
6.28 400 0.028 35.17 3.6 35.4 ohms 220 100.0% 6.2 1.37


I did find CF6-07-04 for $3.30/ft; 20 ft. min.

Voltage Hz ratio must match on ramp up, or at any time these motors are run, so that information is incorrect

You will only burn these spindles if you use the default 50Hz /60Hz settings in the VFD Drive the minimum is 100Hz for the water-cooled spindle and higher for the air-cooled spindle

[BertZ]

For some reason you are hung up on using the default 50HZ/60Hz settings. Whatever gave you that idea?

The L510 gives an option of seven different V/F curves. The first six are fixed curves for use with 50/60 Hz motors.

The seventh curve is totally up to the user to define. Just to be clear I am using Curve #7.

In my initial attempts to use this VFD I was using the lower number curves and kept tripping the unit on over-current. Then I went to curve 7 but with a strictly linear curve. 0 to 220 volts. 0 to 400 Hz.

Still tripping on over-current. Then the light bulb went on!

The current through any two stator coils at any given moment is directly proportional to the applied voltage and inversely proportional to the circuit impedance. To put it simply, increase the voltage, you increase the current. Increase the impedance, you decrease the current.

I managed to borrow a high end Fluke LCR meter and measured the stator inductance. Now we had values for the resistance of the coils and the inductance. The impedance calculation is simply the vector sum of Resistance plus Inductive Reactance.

I tabulated all this info into a spreadsheet and played around with the values until I got a mostly linear curve except at low frequencies (low rpm). I kept the voltage low during the initial start-up until the frequency reached a point where the inductive reactance would be the controlling factor in limiting the current. I could have derived a mathematical function to generate a set of points but who's got time for that.

Anyway, the efficacy of the repast is determined by the enthusiasm of the diners. My motors are humming along nicely, no overheating and I can take some deep cuts with a 1/4" end mill.

[mactec54]

For some reason you are hung up on using the default 50HZ/60Hz settings. Whatever gave you that idea?

The L510 gives an option of seven different V/F curves. The first six are fixed curves for use with 50/60 Hz motors.

Not hung up on the default 50Hz / 60Hz setting read what I posted

The seventh curve is totally up to the user to define. Just to be clear I am using Curve #7.

We knew that you had to configure #7 curve, it is very easy to set up, you did not post what you were trying to do for those settings, it takes about 5 minutes if you know what to do to set that up, and no fluff and feathers needed.

You have it running that's all that counts

You can get the cable from IGUS by the foot no minimum requirement

[Twoforcemember]

So I am having this exact same issue, with the (almost) same setup. I have a 2.2kw spindle and the 2.2kw version of this same VFD. Can you post what settings you set to what in one grand finale post? I actually have an old nowforever VFD 1.5kw that will run my motor fine, but is underpowered... I swear I have attempted to crossreference the parameters from that one to the teco, but I get the same 3 seconds and overcurrent error. I have not screwed with setting curve 7, but I wanted to make sure all my other settings were correct first...

Thank you!

[BertZ]

After receiving the VFD I decided to test it on the bench before assembly in its final location. I connected everything as it should and powered up the VFD. Each time I tried to run the spindle motor, the VFD would cut out after a few seconds and it would return an ever-current error. Could I have damaged the spindle motor? I decided to order another spindle motor with the same specs only this one uses an ER16 collet. I connected the new motor and had the same result – over-current shutdown after a few seconds.
I had to be sure that the motors were not somehow being damaged by the VFD. I took both motors to a motor repair shop and had them meggered. They both checked out just fine.
I decided to approach the problem from a more analytical perspective. We needed to understand why the motor was seeing these high currents at no load when all else seems normal. The L510 has two control modes: sensorlesss vector control and voltage/frequency (V/F) curve. We are using the V/F curve in our application. The L510 has six fixed V/F curves that are used for controlling 50/60 Hz motors. There is also the option for a customizable V/F curve for 400 Hz operation. This is the one we need to use.
The spindle motor consists of three separate windings. At any given instant in time only two of the windings carry current. We know that the current in the windings is limited by the total impedance of the motor circuit. The impedance being the vector sum of the resistance of the windings and the inductive reactance which is a function of the operating frequency. So we grabbed a meter and measured the inductance of the windings.
Using the measured values for resistance and inductance we were able to calculate the motor current at maximum RPM (400 Hz). We determined that this was well within the motor rating of 8 amps. Using this data we were able to construct a table to generate points on the V/F curve.
Const. f L XL R Z V V% I kW
6.28 1.5 0.028 0.13 3.6 3.6 ohms 15 6.5% 4.2 0.06
6.28 25 0.028 2.20 3.6 4.2 ohms 15 6.5% 3.6 0.05
6.28 60 0.028 5.28 3.6 6.4 ohms 20 8.7% 3.1 0.06
6.28 120 0.028 10.55 3.6 11.1 ohms 70 30.4% 6.3 0.44
6.28 240 0.028 21.10 3.6 21.4 ohms 135 58.7% 6.3 0.85
6.28 400 0.028 35.17 3.6 35.4 ohms 230 100.0% 6.5 1.50

During the acceleration of the motor, the frequency is automatically advanced from minimum to 400 Hz. Recall that inductive reactance increases as frequency increases. Therefore at low frequencies the motor current is mainly limited by the resistance component. Thus if we incorporate a strictly linear V/F curve where the voltage increases in step with the frequency, we could over-saturate the motor coils at very low frequencies. This is what was causing the overcurrent error during acceleration.

We adjusted the V/F curve to keep the voltage constant at the lower frequencies and applied this curve to the VFD. Problem solved!