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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Haas Machines > Haas Mills > side mount tool changer-I take back what I said about
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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    201

    side mount tool changer-I take back what I said about

    After living with the side mount tool changer, I take back what I called "luxury" item for the following reasons.

    1. More work area on machine table and no sharp tools sticking you in the back of the head during setup.
    2. No sticky coolant spraying on all tools as in the Umbrella style tool changer. Tools stay dry and clean stored indefinitely in the side mount changer.
    3. No extra long tools crashing into workpiece during tool change.
    4. Maximize Z clearance as toolchanger is mounted at maximum machine Z zero, where umbrella style is 4" below max Z clearance.
    5. Faster tool changes.

    After using the side mount for several weeks, I can say the extra cost may be justified for many more reasons besides faster tool changes.

    My 2 cents, thanks,
    joe V.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    12177
    Quote Originally Posted by 1ctoolfool View Post
    After living with the side mount tool changer, I take back what I called "luxury" item for the following reasons.

    1. More work area on machine table and no sharp tools sticking you in the
    back of the head during setup.....
    Yes, definitely and I have the 1-1/2 scar on the top of my skull to attest to the fact that the tools are sharp.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1ctoolfool View Post
    2. No sticky coolant spraying on all tools as in the Umbrella style tool changer. Tools stay dry and clean stored indefinitely in the side mount changer.....
    Yes!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1ctoolfool View Post
    3. No extra long tools crashing into workpiece during tool change.,,,.
    Or rotary tailstocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1ctoolfool View Post
    4. Maximize Z clearance as toolchanger is mounted at maximum machine Z zero, where umbrella style is 4" below max Z clearance.....
    Ah, careful...With the carousel/umbrella style the spindle lifts and the tool once at the tool change level stays at that level.

    With the side mount the arm on the changer drops everything about three inches from Z zero then does it rotation. A long tool may hit, or if you are lucky like we were, just miss the tailstock on the rotary.


    Quote Originally Posted by 1ctoolfool View Post
    5. Faster tool changes.....
    Yes especially when you go from tool 1 to tool 10 or a similar move that involves a 180 degree index of the carousel.

    And don't you like the way the controller looks ahead and pre-positions the next tool without any extra code.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    23
    I have 2 VF-3 machines with the 40 tool side mount. Very reliable and like you said the tools stay clean. I love it.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    23
    I once had a nightmare where I accidentally left too long a tool with too high a part and did a G28 at full rapid -- ripped the carousal off the machine. So much for counting sheep...

    Seriously...I would love to have a side mount changer for all the reasons you describe above. When in doubt about Z clearance, I put the tool in and jog it down to machine Z0. It seems Haas has it at the bottom of the tool change travel.
    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    340
    is it possible to prepare a next tool for the next tool change while the machine is milling ? my question is , what if I put Txx for the next tool after M06 , is the machine go to mill and rotate the changer or rotate the changer and waits then go to milling ? if this is as the second I wrote , then I don`t see any reason this could be faster ?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    12177
    I have never watched to see exactly when the Side Mount Changer moves the next tool in position but it does it while the machine is running. When the machine goes into a toolchange the next tool is ready.

    I think the control must look ahead and see the next Tn M06 command but I have no idea how many blocks ahead it is looking.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    45

    stage tool

    You can stage tools with a side mount tool changer heres a sample
    %
    O00056 (Stage Tool Sample)

    T5 M06
    G00 G90 G56 X-1.875 Y0. S2250 M03
    G43 H05 Z0.2 M08
    T7(Stage Tool 7)
    G82 G99 Z-0.2 P0.2 R0.05 F15.
    X-1.125 Y0.
    X-0.375 Y0
    X0.3 Y0.
    X1.05 Y0.
    X1.8 Y0.
    G00 G80 Z0.2 M09
    G28 G91 Z0
    M01

    T7 M06
    G00 G90 G56 X-1.875 Y0. S2500 M03
    G43 H07 Z0.2 M08
    T1(Stage Tool 1)
    G81 G99 Z-0.5 R0.05 F20.
    X-1.125 Y0.
    X-0.375 Y0
    X0.3 Y0.
    X1.05 Y0.
    X1.8 Y0.
    G00 G80 Z0.2 M09
    G28 G91 Z0
    M01

    T1 M06
    G00 G56 G90 X-1.875 Y0 S5500 M03
    G43 H01 Z0.2 M08
    T4(Stage Tool 4)
    G01 Z-0.25 F25.
    X1.875
    Z-0.45
    X-1.875
    Z-0.55 F5.
    X1.875 F25.
    Y0.005
    X-1.875
    Y-0.005
    X1.875
    Y0
    G00 Z0.2 M09
    G28 G91 Z0
    M01

    T4 M06
    G00 G56 G90 X-1.875 Y0 S2500 M03
    G43 H04 Z0.05
    T5(Stage Tool 5)
    G01 Z-0.125 F25.
    X1.875 F25.
    G00 Z0.05
    G28 G91 Z0
    M30
    %

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    12177
    Quote Originally Posted by wcbob View Post
    You can stage tools with a side mount tool changer .......
    I believe on older Haas machines it was necessary to stage the next tool but on both our side mount machines we do not stage and they get the next tool ready anyway. Saves a lot of time not having to edit programs transferred from the carousel machines.

    I was also scared to put in the staging command; it would be so easy to accidently type in the M06 as well because that is what your fingers remember to do. Alternatively, getting confused and omitting the M06 at a required tool change. Both of these errors could cause mayhem.
    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.

  9. #9
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    Jul 2005
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    340
    yes, you`re right Geof, now I know exaclty how it work, thaks all.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    43
    Ours will look ahead and stage the next tool, but when the last tool is in use it will not look "ahead" to the first tool in the program. So, we add a T# right after the last tool is called (no need for the M06), so when the program is restarted the first tool used in the program is right there. Otherwise, depending on the circumstances, there will probably be a longer delay than necessary.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    35

    We have 5 VF8s and a VF6.
    3 have 40 position sidemounts - and we all hate them!!!!
    there are the plus points as already mentioned, but the way we work it'd be so much easier to retain tool&pocket numbers being the same.

    Ours all require a "T" to position the next tool!

    Be careful if yours requires this.
    We use D#4120 a lot instead of having to remember to alter D when altering T&H.
    It will use the D offset for the last tool called, very handy normally, but if your machines require the T to position the tool in the carousel then it will use the D offset for this tool, NOT the one in the spindle!!
    Why couldnt there be a setting like the T&H matching one??!!
    >>>>>>>>>> Made In England <<<<<<<<<<

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1702
    OK, I'm not crazy, I do remember reading this thread...

    Brand flippin' new VF-5XT and it doesn't prestage the sidemount changer. Do I really have to go back and edit every tool change to tell it the next tool number or is there a setting that happens to be turned off?

    HALP! I have some important people coming in this morning to see the machines and I'm trying to reduce the demo cycle time as much as possible.
    Greg

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    713
    There may be a setting, but I'm not aware of one and I'm not in the shop today to look.

    Are you running sub programs in this particular program? If so, I've had problems with this as well.

    Are you doing 3D stuff with lots of little moves? I've noticed that the control goes through code so fast that by the time the look ahead sees the next tool, it's allready waiting for the toolchange to happen. In that case, you need to pre-stage.

    I believe you're running MasterCam, correct? You can set it up to automatically pre-stage tools. Mine does it on the G43 line of the current tool.

    Since you're in a hurry, I would just edit the program and get it over with, but there are ways to do this for the future.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    84
    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
    OK, I'm not crazy, I do remember reading this thread...

    Brand flippin' new VF-5XT and it doesn't prestage the sidemount changer. Do I really have to go back and edit every tool change to tell it the next tool number or is there a setting that happens to be turned off?

    HALP! I have some important people coming in this morning to see the machines and I'm trying to reduce the demo cycle time as much as possible.
    Do you have M00 or M01 before a tool change? It wont look past M0/M1 to prestage a tool. I like to put m01 before every tool change, so I put a tool call on the line right before my m01 and it works fine (2008 VF-4).

  15. #15
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    Nov 2007
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    1702
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt@RFR View Post
    I believe you're running MasterCam, correct? You can set it up to automatically pre-stage tools. Mine does it on the G43 line of the current tool.
    That's a good idea. I'll look in Mastercam. Was it a checkbox or an edit to the post?

    Ultimately, I did the hand coding and it worked fine. In the end, nobody bothered to watch an entire part cycle so cycle time didn't matter.
    Greg

  16. #16
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    Apr 2005
    Posts
    713
    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
    Was it a checkbox or an edit to the post?
    I don't recall now...I made the change quite some time ago forgot about it. I'm sure it's either in the control parameter settings in MC, or a Y or N setting in the post.

    In the end, nobody bothered to watch an entire part cycle so cycle time didn't matter.
    Figures. That's kinda like spending two days cleaning the shop for a visit from the big wigs, and they never set foot on the shop floor.

  17. #17
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    Jul 2007
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    1602
    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
    Ultimately, I did the hand coding and it worked fine. In the end, nobody bothered to watch an entire part cycle so cycle time didn't matter.
    And if you hadn't done it, they would have watched the whole thing then asked you why the tool changes on the new fully tricked out machine were so slow...

    It is one of those immutable laws of nature, closely related to software demos.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    1389
    Quote Originally Posted by DruMor View Post
    Do you have M00 or M01 before a tool change? It wont look past M0/M1 to prestage a tool. I like to put m01 before every tool change, so I put a tool call on the line right before my m01 and it works fine (2008 VF-4).
    SO thats how you get the haas to preload a tool, you put the M01 or M00 after the tool change. I been reading this thread going my new machine wont do this, how are these guys gettnig that done?

    so instead of this

    G0 Z0.3
    M09
    G91 G28 Z0.0 M05
    M01
    M6 T20 (3.000 DIA. FACE MILL)
    G0 G90 G55 X-2.0 Y-1.4
    M3 S6500
    G43 Z0.1 H20 M08
    etc etc etc

    you use

    G0 Z0.3
    M09
    G91 G28 Z0.0 M05
    M6 T20 (3.000 DIA. FACE MILL)
    M01
    G0 G90 G55 X-2.0 Y-1.4
    M3 S6500
    G43 Z0.1 H20 M08
    etc etc etc

    Will the machine run while the carosel is grabbing the next tool, or will it wait to complete that carosel cycle before it does the next move?

    Delw

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    713
    Using an M0 to speed up tool changes is a little counter productive, don't you think??

    Del, your machine should pre-stage the next tool on its own, but there are a few situations when it doesn't work well. For those situations, simply pre-stage the tool yourself.

    M6 T1
    M3 S5000
    G43 H1 M8 T2
    G54 Xn.nnn Yn.nnn

    That will pre-stage T2 immediately after changing to T1. And yes, the carousell will move while the machine is working.

  20. #20
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    Jan 2007
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    1389
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt@RFR View Post

    Del, your machine should pre-stage the next tool on its own, but there are a few situations when it doesn't work well. For those situations, simply pre-stage the tool yourself.

    M6 T1
    M3 S5000
    G43 H1 M8 T2
    G54 Xn.nnn Yn.nnn

    That will pre-stage T2 immediately after changing to T1. And yes, the carousell will move while the machine is working.

    Matt Mine has never prestaged, once these SS parts get done I am going to try it out.
    All my programs look like the ones I posted above.
    That would save lots of time if i could get it to work. especially on some of these quick cut many tool change programs.

    The only thing I dont like about the exampl you posted is Like geof said, I am used to typeing a T number and a M06 and I would hate to make a mistake. but I am willing to give it a try and I can alter my software to do that automatically as well.

    Thanks I will let you know how it works in a few hours
    Delw

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